Achilles pain

[quixoticgeek]

On my 200k diy at the weekend about 150km into it, my left achilles started to hurt, and even now a few days later, it feels sore, tho the pain goes down after a bit of movement. My understanding is that Achilles pain is usually the result of saddle height being wrong. What is the consensus on which way I should be moving my saddle? Up, or down?

J

[Brucey]

the other thing that may ease things is moving the cleats backwards on your shoes; this reduces the load on that tendon.

Of course it could be (at least in part)  a rubbing thing caused by a shoe that isn't the right shape for you.

cheers

[quixoticgeek]

the other thing that may ease things is moving the cleats backwards on your shoes; this reduces the load on that tendon.

Of course it could be (at least in part)  a rubbing thing caused by a shoe that isn't the right shape for you.

I'm riding flats, as my clipless shoes were giving me other issues, and I haven't been able to find a pair that fit right (Amsterdam bike shops don't have a great range in small sizes...)

J

[rafletcher]

If it’s a saddle position issue then I’d say move it up.

Edit: Perhaps your shoe stack height has increased with the ones you’re using on flats?

[quixoticgeek]

If it’s a saddle position issue then I’d say move it up.

Edit: Perhaps your shoe stack height has increased with the ones you’re using on flats?

I've been using these shoes for months.

Will try moving the saddle up a few mm. My left leg is a different length to the right. Which explains why no bilateral symmetry in the symptoms.

J

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Which leg is shorter? Why don't you use leg length compensation?

[Ashaman42]

Which foot do you put down when you stop? I don't my left knee and ankle tend to have problems earlier as that's the side I unclip and put down.

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[quixoticgeek]

Which leg is shorter? Why don't you use leg length compensation?

3mm. Left is the longer. I have footbeds in my shoes that raise my heal by 3mm.

J

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Heel lifts don't work on pedals when you are pedalling with the ball of your foot. 3mm is almost at the too small to compensate for anyway.

Excessively soft soles can cause foot problems when pedalling long distances, though usually it is the arch, rather than the achilles.

[Dave_C]

Hi,

I had this last summer. Here is a short explanation of what happened and how I resolved it.

In Dec 2016 i buy s/h steel mountain bike frame, (Cotic Bfe). Swap over all components from Spec Rockhopper to Steel except seat tube as old one too narrow.
Take seat tube off Audax bike as it fits. Play around with height, and tape (insulation tape) the correct height for MTB frame. <- important bit.

Spring 2017 buy new seat post for MTB, put back old seat post on Audax bike (same Brook saddle) - note tape now incorrect height.

Ride a diy 600 with new tribars on. No discomfort or injury.
Then a month later ride hilly 300 with tribars removed and injury right Achilles badly.

Physio and rest.

4 months later ride diy flat 400 - now injure both Achilles badly. Think about what has changed. I (Originally) convinced myself not seat height as 600 went well - forgetting I rode further fwd and higher up as I spent most of the time on the tribars.

Measure seat height against commuter which has same geometry and seat height as Audax bike. Find seat height on Audax bike is 10cm too high!!!
Lower Audax seat height to same as commuter, do a 200, no issues with Achilles.

Read up on web Achilles injury cycling to find seat too high is most probable cause.

The tape left on the seat post was for the mountain bike height so far too high for the road bike.

I personally find that if the seat is too high I injury my Achilles. If the seat is too low I injure my knees.

You may be different to me, but I hope it helps.

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[Frank9755]

If you have achilles pain, move your saddle down!

If it was a bike that you used to ride with cleated pedals, switching to flats would most likely lead to a lower stack height.  Also you would most likely ride more mid-foot with flat pedals.  Both of those would need you to move your saddle down to compensate.  The latter would also suggest you might want to nudge it forward slightly. 

[Bobby]

hypothetically speaking

Lets say you did get Achilles pain at ~800k into LEL (twice), and you were now eyeing up Borders of Belgium in September...

But you were not prepared to move saddle due to years of tweaking to manage more serious knee and wrist problems...

Then what should that person do?
- Stretch? if so what's best & how often?
- Proactively tape? they used physo tape to make it back on the LEL..
- ?

[Frank9755]

In my experience, you have to work round whichever problem is most serious at the time.  The right saddle position at the start of the ride may well not be the right one after 800km when you are much looser but may have strained some things, so you are actually looking to make adjustments on an ongoing basis.

I can understand reluctance to aggrevate a hostorical problem but I would still move saddle down in that situation - ie when the achilles was crying out for it, but not before, or at the start.  If you move it down at 800km, will your knees, which will be extremely well warmed up and supple by then, cope with the last 200km at a lower height?

If knees start to complain then you'd have to put your saddle back up and see if the period of lower saddle height has settled your achilles.  If not and they both hurt you have a decision to make.  Mild pain is not likely to cause a long term problem - can you cope with it?  Sharp, nasty pain is not something to put up with as you are doing damage.  If you can't find an adjustment that avoids nasty pain somewhere, you have to DNF at that point.

Stretching might help - need a physio to advise.  Taping might, although I'm sceptical that it can be much more than a placebo.

EDIT - another thing to try is regular standing up and stretching from early on in the ride to give the achilles (and other bits) a break.  What I do is set an alarm every 20-30 minutes, stand on pedals and stretch.

[Bobby]

In my experience, you have to work round whichever problem is most serious at the time.  The right saddle position at the start of the ride may well not be the right one after 800km when you are much looser but may have strained some things, so you are actually looking to make adjustments on an ongoing basis.

I can understand reluctance to aggrevate a hostorical problem but I would still move saddle down in that situation - ie when the achilles was crying out for it, but not before, or at the start.  If you move it down at 800km, will your knees, which will be extremely well warmed up and supple by then, cope with the last 200km at a lower height?

There is little opportunity for experimentation here with only one such ride every 4 years or so

Stretching might help - need a physio to advise.  Taping might, although I'm sceptical that it can be much more than a placebo.

Tape worked really well - i formed an exoskeleton with kinesio tape that basically prevented my ankle form extending.  Also meant I could not walk, but i didn't care about that

EDIT - another thing to try is regular standing up and stretching from early on in the ride to give the achilles (and other bits) a break.  What I do is set an alarm every 20-30 minutes, stand on pedals and stretch.

Good call - would you drop your heal?

[Frank9755]

You don't really want to experiment, you only make these adjustments in the heart of battle, do what you need to to get round. The uncertainty is part of the excitement, IMHO! If it was certain that you could get round then it wouldn't feel like such an achievement afterwards

I spoke to a guy who had immobilised his ankle with much tape to get through Tour Divide. He said it had worked but caused other problems.

I don't normally(drop heel), usually focus on arching my back and stretching shoulders, but whatever works. One to discuss with a physio

[Dave_C]

During the end of my physio treatment for my achillies, the physio suggested stretching the calve muscles.

Googling will produce good advise. (basically put the toe of one foot against the wall, the other leg back around a foot. Palms flat against the wall, wide at shoulder height. Move the your body forward until the knee touches the wall. You feel the tightness in the rear calf. The knee touching the wall helps to prevent you over stretching).

I also stretch the upper thigh rear. (cross left leg over right leg and keep left leg bent and right leg straight. Slowly bend forward, feeling the stretch in the upper rear right thigh. Cross the legs over the other way bending the right leg this time. With the left leg straight, bend forward to feel stretch in upper rear thigh of the left leg. It is important not to bounce but take it slowly and bend only as far as you feel the tightness. Do not over reach.

It is also important to warm up by jogging round gently before hand. Do not stretch cold muscles. I'm prone to tight calves as I do not run, and only cycle for exercise. I read somewhere a while ago, cycling leads to tight calves and running helps stretch the leg muscles to compensate.

This is a handy guide I like to watch. Not to use as advice, I just like to watch it.... ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAmTwJsaV0

[TJG]

I have been suffering from sore Achilles on and off after riding about 60k with the saddle way too high last year.
Saw a chiropractor for a bit who suggested a bike fit as otherwise I would be forever paying him to treat injuries the bike was causing. Bike fit moved saddle even further down and that solved a load of other issues I was having with knees. I have always thought knees hurt when the saddle was too high so this one surprised me. 
The thing that helps the most now though is regular stretching after rides and use of a foam roller.  Having an office job does not help but as long as I spend some time off the bike to make sure the muscles are not too tight I am ok.

As the chiropractor said when I moaned that I had been riding for years without any issues, that was when I was in my 20s.  Now I'm in my 30s ligaments and tendons are starting to wear out and will only get worse.

[quixoticgeek]

An update, on Thursday I took the saddle down about 5mm, did a 200km DIY, (personal best of 9:45:58). No Achilles pain. Knees were a bit sore and stiff, but seemed to recover pretty quickly. Am wondering if perhaps there is a sweet spot about 2mm higher that may reduce the knee pain, but also not cause the Achilles pain...

J

[Dave_C]

An update, on Thursday I took the saddle down about 5mm, did a 200km DIY, (personal best of 9:45:58). No Achilles pain. Knees were a bit sore and stiff, but seemed to recover pretty quickly. Am wondering if perhaps there is a sweet spot about 2mm higher that may reduce the knee pain, but also not cause the Achilles pain...

J

I'm glad to hear of your improvement. I'm still playing about with my Audax bike's saddle height. 5mm up etc.. but I ride it pretty infrequently over long distances so it will take a while.

[quixoticgeek]

I'm glad to hear of your improvement. I'm still playing about with my Audax bike's saddle height. 5mm up etc.. but I ride it pretty infrequently over long distances so it will take a while.

Did another 200 on Monday, (3 in 8 days!). No pain in the Achilles. My knees were rather stiff at the end of it. But no pain the next day. Makes me wonder if it's just general use pain, rather than wrong position pain.

J

[Peat]

*bump*

Found this thread searching for other tales of achilles woe.

I discovered I had a leg length difference while looking at my leather saddle and seeing it had taken on quite a different shape L:R. Long story short, I lowered all my saddles by about 10-15mm to suit my shorter side and have been blown away by the improvement in comfort. I used to frequently get saddle sores on my LHS (short side) which i now know is because i was grinding it into the seat.

Did a long-ish ride a few weeks ago and had a few jabs of pain from my right achilles in the late stages, didn't think an awful lot of it. This weekend I did a 2, 3 then 7hr ride on consecutive days and from the off yesterday I could feel a tightness/tenderness of my right achilles again. The dull pain would come and go, to the point i would forget all about it. Then I would stop for a break/check map etc, set off and there it was again.

It was very sore getting out of bed this morning, so i've started looking into it.

The general advise seems to be that your saddle is too high, but I having recently lowered mine, I'm wondering if I'm getting excessive heel dip on my longer leg now. My other half commented on one of the early rides (at the new saddle height) that one ankle/foot was alot more mobile than the other.

Anyway, a quandary - I have been building up for a 2 day ride across Wales with friends this coming weekend. RICE in the immediate term, I was wondering about moving the cleat on my right shoe back. I have some KT tape kicking round too, so could try supporting it a bit. 

But if the forecast is crap, I could legitimately cry 'injury' and not go. But having created the route for it, I will be sick with envy seeing them do it without me.

[FifeingEejit]

My Right achillies is considerably tighter than my left
I used to get pain on one bike which was resolved by lowering saddle height and fitting a layback seat post
I currently have pain in said achillies thanks to being stupid and accidentally doing a heel drop on the bike where length possibility is near infinite unlike when doing them on a step where there is at least ground to stop over doing it.

end grump

[ravenbait]

An update, on Thursday I took the saddle down about 5mm, did a 200km DIY, (personal best of 9:45:58). No Achilles pain. Knees were a bit sore and stiff, but seemed to recover pretty quickly. Am wondering if perhaps there is a sweet spot about 2mm higher that may reduce the knee pain, but also not cause the Achilles pain...

J

There is. I used to get laughed at for altering my saddle height by 2mm at a time. Totally worth it.

Sam

[LittleWheelsandBig]

HK uses https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=118265.0 to compensate for leg length differences.

[chrisbainbridge]

I have a definite leg length difference. I use it to assess Physios, etc. if they get it right I trust them.
I would suggest setting the saddle height for the longer leg and adding shims to your cleats. This effectively gives you equal height on the bike and keeps all the joints in the right places. The problem with lowering the saddle to the short leg is that the long leg now has to over flex to compensate.