Signals on group rides

[ChrisO]

some people seem to be quite unaware that they're wibbling in the road and at there's a car hanging back and waiting politely to pass.  "Car up" can be pointed.

Assuming they're responsible adults, and with all faculties, I take the view that that is their problem, and the motorist's.

But that's utterly not the group-ride (as in a tight wheel-following bunch) ethic.

It might not be wibbling, it might be someone moving out to pass, move up, avoid an obstacle, or simply follow the wheels of those in front who might be 10 metres further up and unaware that there is a car behind.

It's not always possible to hear a car behind - that's a ridiculous assumption. They might have come up fairly slowly on a downhill section, or as another car went past. And if you are twenty riders up in a bunch then you can't all be looking over your shoulder all the time, even if you could see through everyone.

On a group ride there is an element of collective thought and action which is for the overall safety and benefit of the group. The physical nature of the group means that normal individual senses and reactions are compromised.

There's nothing worse than going out with people who don't give signals or relay information - the only excuse is if they're new, in which case they should be hanging at the back and picking it up.

If people don't like it, well that's why God invented audax.

[Butterfly]

some people seem to be quite unaware that they're wibbling in the road and at there's a car hanging back and waiting politely to pass.  "Car up" can be pointed.

Assuming they're responsible adults, and with all faculties, I take the view that that is their problem, and the motorist's.

Not everyone is able to hear well. Also if you are on a sociable ride rather than a pack ride, a car can be quite a long way back and it is antagonistic to make them wait for each group of 2 to hear them and single up, when a call from behind or in front can give you a chance to single safely without being hassled by an irritated driver and the car a chance to pass smoothly.

[border-rider]

some people seem to be quite unaware that they're wibbling in the road and at there's a car hanging back and waiting politely to pass.  "Car up" can be pointed.

Assuming they're responsible adults, and with all faculties, I take the view that that is their problem, and the motorist's.

Sure, but if you're in a group (a clubrun say) and there's someone at the front of the group sitting out wide whilst everyone else has singled out to let a car past, it's an issue for the whole group.  That's the sort of scenario I was thinking of.   It's really a polite way of telling people to wake up and look at what's going on.

[Martin]

I do get annoyed with some riders who insist on riding two abreast even when someone clearly shouts "car up" (although it's often less of a hazard to wait until a safe place to pass than try to overtake a single file of riders)

But not singling up just reinforces some drivers' opinion that we are arrogant bastards who don't pay "road tax" and makes them more likely to be less tolerant of the next cyclist they pass.

[Jaded]

There's nothing worse than going out with people who don't give signals or relay information - the only excuse is if they're new, in which case they should be hanging at the back and picking it up.

Sounds like those unfriendly arrogant clubs that people moan about every now and then on here.

Having someone hanging at the back who doesn't to know to signal 'car up' (or 'down', depending on the whims of the club) doesn't sound very bright to me!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I do get annoyed with some riders who insist on riding two abreast even when someone clearly shouts "car up" (although it's often less of a hazard to wait until a safe place to pass than try to overtake a single file of riders)

I do get annoyed at some riders who insist on yelling that others in a big peleton should single up when it is less of a hazard for drivers to not be tempted to squeeze past a long line of cyclists in unsafe locations.   

[mattc]

I do get annoyed with some riders who insist on riding two abreast even when someone clearly shouts "car up" (although it's often less of a hazard to wait until a safe place to pass than try to overtake a single file of riders)

I do get annoyed at some riders who insist on yelling that others in a big peleton should single up when it is less of a hazard for drivers to not be tempted to squeeze past a long line of cyclists in unsafe locations.   

2nded. The rider at the back knows there is a car coming. The rider at the front should make his/her own decision whether single or double is better.

Having someone hanging at the back who doesn't to know to signal 'car up' (or 'down', depending on the whims of the club) doesn't sound very bright to me!

It might come across as unfriendly if explained badly, but I think there is some sense in this. The 'newbie' may not know about hand signals either - it is much easier to learn these from the back of the group than the front. And much less frustrating than having the newbie swerve round potholes without alerting the 19 riders behind them

[oh and I would like to say that I have NEVER heard this 'other' car up/down convention of which you speak! ]

[Moloko]

We were riding in a large group, there happened to be a Mitsubishi Shogan behind us waiting to pass.
I jokingly shouted "Tank up" only to later have a pompous old fart from the group
ride up next to me and say all matter-of-factly "Do you mind? I happen to own one of those!"
I just said "I don't do confessions, you'll be needing a priest, instead."  As I rode away from the boring twat.

[Butterfly]

You should comiserate with the poor old thing. They drive like meccano with a bus engine

[clarion]

I think it's a bit much to assume that a person near the head of a group of maybe twenty cyclists can hear or see a car approaching the rear of the group.  I'm one of at least two people on this forum with limited hearing.  But I can hear a call of 'Car up!'

Timing is important, mind.  It's a bit frustrating for the front end if it's called, then sits behind sensibly, waiting for a chance to pass.  You know something's going to happen, just not when.  Similarly, you might want to give warning before the overtake is already in progress.

Not an easy balance.

[ChrisO]

There's nothing worse than going out with people who don't give signals or relay information - the only excuse is if they're new, in which case they should be hanging at the back and picking it up.

Sounds like those unfriendly arrogant clubs that people moan about every now and then on here.

Having someone hanging at the back who doesn't to know to signal 'car up' (or 'down', depending on the whims of the club) doesn't sound very bright to me!

Well thanks Jaded, yes I'm unfriendly, arrogant AND stupid.

You're absolutely right. Inexperienced riders should be put at the front of a pack - better still, slap bang in the middle so they have people on all sides - and nobody who has any experience of group riding should let them know they might want to learn and conform to decades of custom and practice.

[Jaded]

Oh, come on! Suggesting that a rider should "be hanging at the back and picking it up" is rather different from (for example) them being advised what the signals are and maybe then taken out for an informal ride to show them the process in action?

[clarion]

Maybe a noob should be near the back, but with a TEC to shepherd them, who would do the calling?

[Chris S]

I knew nothing about calls and signals when I started riding Audax. I just watched others and learned.

[Jaded]

Audax is much more relaxed though.

[Chris S]

Audax is much more relaxed though.

Most of the time. Get in a Chelmsford CC pace line on one the Essex 200s and it can get quite frenetic .

[Jaded]

Yeah, that's because they want to win! 

[border-rider]

Can be.

Depends who you're with.  Anyone with a club riding background will give warnings and signals, and as others have said that can be very useful in a big bunch.

PBP was a nightmare - loads riders with no awareness of how to ride safely (or at all) in a group; just getting past them was dangerous enough, and if you got caught up in one it could be a real mess.

On the last day we fell in with Cardiff Byways, and it was so refreshing to be in with a bunch of guys who knew how to ride in a group.

[mattc]

Oh, come on! Suggesting that a rider should "be hanging at the back and picking it up" is rather different from (for example) them being advised what the signals are and maybe then taken out for an informal ride to show them the process in action?

Well that would be lovely, but it's not really going to happen with every new rider, is it?

(Or are you suggesting a 'Bunch Cycling Proficiency' - no club run until you've passed )

Easiest way is to sit back and watch. Some folks prefer that rather than a pushy 'lesson' approach. Not every club run has a trained instructor!

[Ian H]

Some clubs and CTC groups have web pages devoted to group riding etiquette. I think they're useful.

[clarion]

Unless you're with a bunch you know, it's best to assume that the person in front/behind has no idea at all what they're doing.  We were on a group ride a few months ago where the person in front of us raised their hand so much to indicate a road hazard that it looked like they were signalling. More than once, I rode into the pothole as a result.

On the other hand, I've seen hazards indicated that I'd have had to dismount and investigate with a magnifying glass to find anything of concern at all.

[Really Ancien]

Can be.

PBP was a nightmare - loads riders with no awareness of how to ride safely (or at all) in a group; just getting past them was dangerous enough, and if you got caught up in one it could be a real mess.

Heather and I rode the Manchester-Blackpool bike ride prior to PBP 1990 to re-calibrate our expectations of group riding. It worked, compared to that, PBP was a breeze.

Damon.

[mattc]

PBP was a nightmare - loads riders with no awareness of how to ride safely (or at all) in a group; just getting past them was dangerous enough, and if you got caught up in one it could be a real mess.

!
Which was the worse time - starting off with the 84H hot-shots, or catching tired 90h riders after their first night on the road? (not that the latter were in any kind of bunches that I noticed ...)

(My tactic was an adrenaline-fuelled blast past the slow-n-steadys until I caught the EGCC bunch, who then cosseted me through to Mortagne.)

[Really Ancien]

 I don't often need to rely on signals, as I can see over the heads of the group. I'm fairly assiduous about signalling myself, as anyone following can see zilch.

That's my head sticking up out of the group.



Damon.

[border-rider]

!
Which was the worse time - starting off with the 84H hot-shots, or catching tired 90h riders after their first night on the road?

The 90 hour groups, no question

The 84-hour lot were reasonably well-disciplined on the run out of Paris.  Much better than the 90-hour group were in 2003, anyway.

There was an element of risk, especially on the last morning, with passing tired 90 hour riders, but even on the first and second days the group riding amongst them was (mostly - there were some disciplined groups) shocking.

Our tactic was to sit just off the back of the group for a moment, then sprint past shouting "Attention a gauche/on the left" and get far enough ahead that they couldn't catch us before we slowed again.