32h vs 36h wheels for touring?

[Charlotte]

As per the title.  If I'm building up a touring bike, what are the pros and cons of 32/36h wheels?

The problem is, along with any number of 32h fronts, I've got a lovely, lightly used 32h Ultegra hub ready to be built up into a wheel.  Ideally, I'd like to have that extra four spokes because I'm going to be looking at front and rear panniers and I'm not a delicate little thing.

Should I hold out for a 36h on eBay or go with the bird in the hand and get on with it?

[MSeries]

One of the benefits of 36h is that you have more chance of being able to make a true enough wheel with one or two missing spokes. All of my touring wheels have been 36h and well built. Never broken a spoke on tour and I have done some long ones.

There are a lot of front hubs on eBay atm

[rogerzilla]

Hold out for a 36h at the rear.  Is it 130mm or 135mm?  130mm gives appalling dish so I don't even trust 32h rear on a racing bike.  As Jobst Brandt says, a 32 spoke rear wheel is only really a 16 spoke wheel because of the dish.

I would always use d/b spokes on both sides.  Some builder use single butted or plain gauge spokes on the RH side, but they don't have the elasticity to cope with the bumps.  My Hewitt rear wheel is no longer true.

For the front, I believe a 32h is sufficient because of the lack of dish.  It depends on the rim to some extent though; a really weak rim won't share the load between as many spokes.

[MSeries]

Hold out for a 36h at the rear.  Is it 130mm or 135mm?  130mm gives appalling dish so I don't even trust 32h rear on a racing bike. 

Been using 32h on my Merckx for 10 years with out any problems on  130mm OLN hub. Even when I weight 15 stones. I am considerably lighter now.

[Polar Bear]

I use 36 holes but you've seen how much of a delicate thing I am too    

I've never managed to damage a 36h wheel when loaded touring or otherwise whereas I've done for quite a few 32h ones.

I vaguely recall an article by Chris Juden where he says something along the lines of a few grams of spokes measurably reduces the real risk of failure.

Maybe check out Chris's technical Q&A on the CTC website re different spokes for each side of a touring rear wheel too to increase strength.

Edit:  Wheels Q&A

[Zoidburg]

As a direct comparison, my fixed having been built up with what ever came to hand has a 36 hole front and a 32 hole rear. It gets thrashed over towpaths and cobbles and the 32 has held up fine so far and is still true.

I think the build is just and if not more important than spoke count.

[Tewdric]

There's little o no dish ona  f ixed wheel though.  My fixed is 28h and very reliable.

If we had any sense for audax and touring we'd use 32f 40r, but fashion dictates otherwise.  I wouldn't want less than 36 foa pannier-carrier.  My audax machine is 32/36.

[Charlotte]

Is it 130mm or 135mm?  

130mm.  But I'm tempted to re-set to 135mm and get a 36h MTB hub now...

[rogerzilla]

There's little o no dish ona  f ixed wheel though.  My fixed is 28h and very reliable.

If we had any sense for audax and touring we'd use 32f 40r, but fashion dictates otherwise.  I wouldn't want less than 36 foa pannier-carrier.  My audax machine is 32/36.

It's really hard to get 40h rims now.  There's a 40h black Mavic Mod 3 on eBay at the moment for £40 BIN, but I'm trying to get something narrower.

[Ian H]

I'd go 32/36 front/rear and use DT's triple butted bombproof spokes on the back. Someone reminded me the other day what they're called.

[Biggsy]

Compared to 36h, 32h will save 25 grams per wheel, and are tiny weeny bit more aerodynamic, but I think it's mad when you've got the choice not to choose 36h for a rear dished wheel for non race use.  You might never need the 4 extra spokes, but think of it as insurance.  A rear dished wheel with a typical rim doesn't have a great deal of strength, so it makes sense to have all the help you can get.

More spokes = more strength without needing a stiffer rim or higher tension, less fatigue, and possibly less trouble if a spoke does break.

32h is fine for front wheels for almost everyone.  36h front is convenient though if buying a pair of hubs, or if you want one spare rim to suit both wheels.

The triple butted DT spokes are called Alpine III.  I would have recommened them (for rear drive side) until Friday when I broke one.  Actually that's not too bad considering I've been using them on three bikes for quite a few years with no problems until now.

[rogerzilla]

JB doesn't mention triple-butted spokes in The Book, but doesn't like plain gauge at all and despises single-butted spokes, with pretty sound reasoning.

In a nutshell: d/b spokes have more "give" so they elongate when being built up and are less likely to go completely slack when you hit a really big bump.  They have a marginally lower breaking strength than plain gauge spokes due to the thinner middle section, but spokes break at either end through fatigue, never in the middle, barring major trauma like someone else's pedal going through them.

Single-butted spokes like Sapim Strong (extra-thick elbow, then plain gauge) aren't any good because the place they're going to break through fatigue is at the thread, which is already the second most common place for a spoke to fail.  They don't have the elasticity of a d/b spoke.  I used them on the RH side of the YACF bike as an experiment, but I build my own wheels with d/b all round.

Triple-butted spokes are probably OK; they keep the elasticity of d/b and probably equalise the chances of eventual fatigue failure at the nipple and hub ends.  Very expensive though.

[andrew_s]

I'd go 32/36 front/rear and use DT's triple butted bombproof spokes on the back. Someone reminded me the other day what they're called.

DT Alpine. (2.3/1.8/2.0, iirc)

There's also a Sapim equivalent spoke now (and a DT equivalent of the Sapim CX-ray)

I use 36h so I can ride with a broken spoke if need be. This can happen even in well built wheels - I've had it happen through rockfall damage, and through getting a bit of someone else's bike in the spokes.
I also use 36h front so I can keep a reduced stock of spare rims at home. I generally buy a fistful of rims and then do rim transplants as required - last MA2 built up last week  , so I'll need new spokes to match Chrinas next time round.

[frankly frankie]

All of my touring wheels have been 36h and well built. Never broken a spoke on tour and I have done some long ones.

All of my touring wheels have been 32h and well built. Never broken a spoke on tour and I have done some long ones.  And I'm heavier than Mseries.

[gene hunt]

Never had more than 32 spoke wheels and have been fine.

[Biggsy]

DT Alpine. (2.3/1.8/2.0, iirc)

There's also a Sapim equivalent spoke now (and a DT equivalent of the Sapim CX-ray)

There's Sapim Strong, but that's only single butted (2.3/2.0).  Is there a new Sapim spoke that's not on their website yet?

[tom_e]

Been using 32h for some time, including a full camping load on the back, and never had a broken spoke yet.  Fingers crossed. 

But definitions of 'touring' vary - my use was heavy load, but on tarmac.

[vorsprung]

I broke another spoke on the 36h wheel (105 hubs, 130mm spacing, open pro) which I use for commuting
I weigh 82kg and I carry no extra luggage on that bike

If I building a specific touring bike I'd get heavier rims of some sort + 36h

Probably if I did go touring (there has been talk of a trip to France with mrs vorsprung/vorsprung jnr next year) I would just put a rack on my audax bike and then moan when it's 36h open pro wheels busted.

[MSeries]

I broke another spoke on the 36h wheel (105 hubs, 130mm spacing, open pro) which I use for commuting
I weigh 82kg and I carry no extra luggage on that bike

If I building a specific touring bike I'd get heavier rims of some sort + 36h

Probably if I did go touring (there has been talk of a trip to France with mrs vorsprung/vorsprung jnr next year) I would just put a rack on my audax bike and then moan when it's 36h open pro wheels busted.

You could borrow my touring rear wheel sir . DRC ST19 Ultegra 10 speed hub (9 speed cassette fits). My old strong XT/Mavic MachIII CD is a good front. It's companion rear is still servicable too, but it's 126OLN (8 speed with 9 speed spacingon a 7 speed freehub body( and the bearing seals are givingup and need maintenance too often now.

[Biggsy]

Been using 32h for some time, including a full camping load on the back, and never had a broken spoke yet.  Fingers crossed.

If you were starting again with a new tourer and had the straight choice between 32 and 36h, would you choose 32h?  Why?  To save a couple of quid?  To save a few grams?  What other advantage is there for you?

[mike]

I've only ever broken 1 spoke on handbuilt wheels (36H campag hubs, open pro rims) and never broken a spoke on 20/24 spoke factory wheels (fulcrums) yet I've been up to 110kgs plus 10kg of luggage.

a lot is down to luck / the way you ride.

(36 )

[Greenbank]

36 all the time for me. If it's not for racing then what's the point in trying to cut off a few g of weight.

[Biggsy]

I've only ever broken 1 spoke on handbuilt wheels (36H campag hubs, open pro rims) and never broken a spoke on 20/24 spoke factory wheels (fulcrums) yet I've been up to 110kgs plus 10kg of luggage.

a lot is down to luck / the way you ride.

The spokes in the factory wheels may be fatigued less if the rims are stiffer and the spokes are different.  I don't don't think the way you ride affects the slow metal fatigue that causes most spoke damage.  All that needs is the wheel going round with the rider's weight on it.

[Phil]

36h creates a far stronger wheel than 32h.  32h wheels were a 70s marketing ploy that has stuck with us. 

[frankly frankie]

If you were starting again with a new tourer and had the straight choice between 32 and 36h, would you choose 32h?  Why? 

32, because I've never had a spoke break on a 32h wheel yet, so why have more? 
I differentiate between 'cycle touring' which to me is all about minimalism and travelling light - and 'expedition' which is more about a land-rover mentality.  I sometimes do rough alpine passes, but I don't carry the kitchen sink over them.

You could ask the same question and apply the same logic using 48h vs 40, 40h vs 36, or 32h vs 28.  And all that is assuming a traditional-style wheel with shallow rims.  My partner's touring wheels are 24h/20h using the more modern semi-deep v rims and they gave no trouble whatever right up to the point where the rear rim had to be retired due to hookiness.  Admittedly she is light.

I use 36h so I can ride with a broken spoke if need be. This can happen ... through getting a bit of someone else's bike in the spokes.

One advantage of a low spoke count is that when bikes are stacked, this is less likely to happen.