Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[ianrobo]

To me a roast dinner is a balance btw and is 100% real food

[chrisbainbridge]

Yes it was which is why the only papers worth quoting are double blinded RCT ones and simply in food science they can not be done

No, again you fail to understand the planning and execution of high quality science.  There are many ways of carrying out non-blinded research.  Randomisation is best but intention to treat trials are perfectly feasible.  These two groups however were SO different that no conclusions can be drawn. 

I am currently designing an observational study which may be non-randomised, a further randomised trial with an intention to treat option and failed to get funding for another randomised double blind trial on which I was a co-applicant.  I am running as PI a randomised non-blinded trial presently and we have just finished a randomised double blind placebo controlled trial.

[ianrobo]

There is a difference though between a study like you describe at first and a study that just extrapolates from metadata from other studies which many food ones do

[ianrobo]

Just for reference this is my macros today and is typical on 2600 calories ... a bit higher carbs than a normally do but before an event I cycle some in and no snacks between two meals, no breakfast but dinner and tea

[ian]

A question Ian in your mind what is a ‘balanced diet’ some suggest as much as 60% carbs. My view would be 40/40/20 carbs/fat/protein but some class that as low carb high fat !

The brilliance of a balanced diet is that I don't have to care what the composition of what I eat is. I care that it tastes good. I take care that I cook things that are wholesome, unprocessed, and include a lot of fruit and veg. Beyond that I aim to cook things that'll I enjoy eating. Everything else then, I find, takes care of itself.

Tonight I'll have a curry, a pilau of rice, broccoli (because it's loitering suspiciously in the bottom of the fridge and I suspect close to doom), and some peas from the freezer. I'll probably have some ready-made starters (because I'm too lazy to cook samosas). There will be beer because it's Friday and it wouldn't be otherwise.

And not it's not all down to diet. People really need to exercise. I swim every day, tomorrow we'll probably do a 10-mile hike. And then have some more beer. And probably a pizza.

[Andrew Br]

..........  cycologikal problems..........

Is this the desire for n+1 ?

[Ian H]

Just for reference...

Coincidentally, my food intake today included a pie. 

But seriously, I don't think one's personal dietary charts (not that I have such a thing) contribute anything much to a discussion.  A varied diet, avoiding any excessive consumption of known poisons, seems best to me.

Hic!

[Jurek]

A question Ian in your mind what is a ‘balanced diet’ some suggest as much as 60% carbs. My view would be 40/40/20 carbs/fat/protein but some class that as low carb high fat !

The brilliance of a balanced diet is that I don't have to care what the composition of what I eat is. I care that it tastes good. I take care that I cook things that are wholesome, unprocessed, and include a lot of fruit and veg. Beyond that I aim to cook things that'll I enjoy eating. Everything else then, I find, takes care of itself.

Tonight I'll have a curry, a pilau of rice, broccoli (because it's loitering suspiciously in the bottom of the fridge and I suspect close to doom), and some peas from the freezer. I'll probably have some ready-made starters (because I'm too lazy to cook samosas). There will be beer because it's Friday and it wouldn't be otherwise.

And not it's not all down to diet. People really need to exercise. I swim every day, tomorrow we'll probably do a 10-mile hike. And then have some more beer. And probably a pizza.

My bold. This.

[hellymedic]

A question Ian in your mind what is a ‘balanced diet’ some suggest as much as 60% carbs. My view would be 40/40/20 carbs/fat/protein but some class that as low carb high fat !

The brilliance of a balanced diet is that I don't have to care what the composition of what I eat is. I care that it tastes good. I take care that I cook things that are wholesome, unprocessed, and include a lot of fruit and veg. Beyond that I aim to cook things that'll I enjoy eating. Everything else then, I find, takes care of itself.

Tonight I'll have a curry, a pilau of rice, broccoli (because it's loitering suspiciously in the bottom of the fridge and I suspect close to doom), and some peas from the freezer. I'll probably have some ready-made starters (because I'm too lazy to cook samosas). There will be beer because it's Friday and it wouldn't be otherwise.

And not it's not all down to diet. People really need to exercise. I swim every day, tomorrow we'll probably do a 10-mile hike. And then have some more beer. And probably a pizza.

My bold. This.

People should be as active as possible but not all can exercise. I can't.

I try to limit my ingestion of 'naughty' stuff and mostly don't eat between meals. I am not spherical.

[ianrobo]

Just for reference...

Coincidentally, my food intake today included a pie. 

But seriously, I don't think one's personal dietary charts (not that I have such a thing) contribute anything much to a discussion.  A varied diet, avoiding any excessive consumption of known poisons, seems best to me.

Hic!

now again you hit on something, key to the whole discussion, what is excessive consumption of known poisons, we can all agree sugar is one of them and then we all disagree on others ....

[LMT]

Just for reference...

Coincidentally, my food intake today included a pie. 

But seriously, I don't think one's personal dietary charts (not that I have such a thing) contribute anything much to a discussion.  A varied diet, avoiding any excessive consumption of known poisons, seems best to me.

Hic!

now again you hit on something, key to the whole discussion, what is excessive consumption of known poisons, we can all agree sugar is one of them and then we all disagree on others ....

Are you saying that sugar is a poison?

[Ian H]

Are you saying that sugar is a poison?

He's asserting that we all agree it is.

[ianrobo]

Are you saying that sugar is a poison?

He's asserting that we all agree it is.

course not a poison as much but is it good for us at all ? we don't need it to live, too much of it causes Diabetes and it is just a sweetener, thats all.

[LMT]

Are you saying that sugar is a poison?

He's asserting that we all agree it is.

 

[LMT]

Are you saying that sugar is a poison?

He's asserting that we all agree it is.

course not a poison as much but is it good for us at all ? we don't need it to live, too much of it causes Diabetes and it is just a sweetener, thats all.

 

I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-


Sugar is a collective term for mono and disaccharides, these being glucose, fructose, lactose and maltose (amongst others). Glucose is the primary fuel for respiration in cells and for the brain, fructose is the sugar you find in a banana - but this is not good according to yourself?

What causes diabetes is insulin resistance, what causes insulin resitance is asking that cells in the body do a job which they are not designd to do.

LC diets hgh in animal products in the long term are non sustainable, unhealthy and lead to increases in heart disease, so yeah, I'd say that sugar as a plant based carb whether it be sugar or starch is a better alternative for a sustainable lifestyle.

[Jurek]

A question Ian in your mind what is a ‘balanced diet’ some suggest as much as 60% carbs. My view would be 40/40/20 carbs/fat/protein but some class that as low carb high fat !

The brilliance of a balanced diet is that I don't have to care what the composition of what I eat is. I care that it tastes good. I take care that I cook things that are wholesome, unprocessed, and include a lot of fruit and veg. Beyond that I aim to cook things that'll I enjoy eating. Everything else then, I find, takes care of itself.

Tonight I'll have a curry, a pilau of rice, broccoli (because it's loitering suspiciously in the bottom of the fridge and I suspect close to doom), and some peas from the freezer. I'll probably have some ready-made starters (because I'm too lazy to cook samosas). There will be beer because it's Friday and it wouldn't be otherwise.

And not it's not all down to diet. People really need to exercise. I swim every day, tomorrow we'll probably do a 10-mile hike. And then have some more beer. And probably a pizza.

My bold. This.

People should be as active as possible but not all can exercise. I can't.

I try to limit my ingestion of 'naughty' stuff and mostly don't eat between meals. I am not spherical.

Apologies. Point taken.

[ianrobo]

I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-

none of the above, I have very rarely sugar in any form for 2 and half years and in that time the only time off work sick has been for my depression.

Now On Sunday, I will get up and do 100 mile fasted ride, hopefully well under 6 hours, I have said many times this is N=1 but you are misinformed about needing to any form of sugar, I am sure you are fully aware we create enough glucose from protein for ourselves to fuel what our body needs ?

Oh in that time I lost 15kg.

[LMT]

I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-

none of the above, I have very rarely sugar in any form for 2 and half years and in that time the only time off work sick has been for my depression.

Now On Sunday, I will get up and do 100 mile fasted ride, hopefully well under 6 hours, I have said many times this is N=1 but you are misinformed about needing to any form of sugar, I am sure you are fully aware we create enough glucose from protein for ourselves to fuel what our body needs ?

Oh in that time I lost 15kg.

It has been shown that diet and mood are linked.

Weight loss means feck all when it comes to health. I could have cancer and lose 15kg, I could have a sincere and honest drug habit and lose 15kg, this does not mean I, or my diet is healthy. Take a blood test and post your results if you are so sure.

I'm well aware that protein can be broken down in the liver to make glucose, I'm also aware of the increase in IGF-1 levels that come from an increase in protein intake, which is why my daily calories as a % are around 12% which are all plant based. If you or anyone else thinks this is too low then I revert you to the WHO guidelines on protein intake.

The sub 6 hour century is anecdotal and has no point.

[sojournermike]

I’m tempted to watch as LMT -  ‘the vegan apologist’ - and IanRobo - ‘the keto man’ - slug it out:)

No offense intended.

However, you both tend to be selective in you reading of the science and i think it’s both more complex and simpler than that.

First, let me be clear that my comment about the ‘lifestyle epidemic’ was not calling anyone a glutton or sloth etc. Lifestyle is not just a choice we make, but a consequence of many factors including our social milieu, how we are impacted by advertising and probably our genetics and childhood experiences. However, it’s clear that, as Ian says, as a society we eat too much and move too little.

If we want to stem the epidemic we need to find ways to move the dial on a much wider basis. Keto is neither affordable or sustainable (including environmentally) for our global population. It’s also probably entirely unnecessary for population health. We do need to address the commercial factors at play - freedom to make ‘good choices’ in our environment is somewhat illusory for many - but there are many other factors too.

I don’t have the answer or magic bullet, but I really don’t think the medical profession is part of a conspiracy to make or keep people ill. I do think that commercial businesses are primarily about making money now and every other consideration is subject to that.


Disclosure - my father died of vascular dementia and heart disease alongside poorly controlled T2D after enjoying the good life for many years. He was 8 years younger than his father at death, albeit 82, and dipped under 100kgs in his last 2 or 3 weeks.

[ianrobo]

I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-

none of the above, I have very rarely sugar in any form for 2 and half years and in that time the only time off work sick has been for my depression.

Now On Sunday, I will get up and do 100 mile fasted ride, hopefully well under 6 hours, I have said many times this is N=1 but you are misinformed about needing to any form of sugar, I am sure you are fully aware we create enough glucose from protein for ourselves to fuel what our body needs ?

Oh in that time I lost 15kg.

It has been shown that diet and mood are linked.

Weight loss means feck all when it comes to health. I could have cancer and lose 15kg, I could have a sincere and honest drug habit and lose 15kg, this does not mean I, or my diet is healthy. Take a blood test and post your results if you are so sure.

I'm well aware that protein can be broken down in the liver to make glucose, I'm also aware of the increase in IGF-1 levels that come from an increase in protein intake, which is why my daily calories as a % are around 12% which are all plant based. If you or anyone else thinks this is too low then I revert you to the WHO guidelines on protein intake.

The sub 6 hour century is anecdotal and has no point.

I said it was N=1 !

Right these are my bloods about 6 months old now and tell me how sick I am from this



as for any vegan debate that is a pointless debate as I know a few keto vegans who show the same benefits as I in bloods etc

[Chris S]

You've got high cholesterol. #nhs

Here - have a lifetime subscription to Statins... #bigpharma

[LMT]

I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-

none of the above, I have very rarely sugar in any form for 2 and half years and in that time the only time off work sick has been for my depression.

Now On Sunday, I will get up and do 100 mile fasted ride, hopefully well under 6 hours, I have said many times this is N=1 but you are misinformed about needing to any form of sugar, I am sure you are fully aware we create enough glucose from protein for ourselves to fuel what our body needs ?

Oh in that time I lost 15kg.

It has been shown that diet and mood are linked.

Weight loss means feck all when it comes to health. I could have cancer and lose 15kg, I could have a sincere and honest drug habit and lose 15kg, this does not mean I, or my diet is healthy. Take a blood test and post your results if you are so sure.

I'm well aware that protein can be broken down in the liver to make glucose, I'm also aware of the increase in IGF-1 levels that come from an increase in protein intake, which is why my daily calories as a % are around 12% which are all plant based. If you or anyone else thinks this is too low then I revert you to the WHO guidelines on protein intake.

The sub 6 hour century is anecdotal and has no point.

I said it was N=1 !

Right these are my bloods about 6 months old now and tell me how sick I am from this



as for any vegan debate that is a pointless debate as I know a few keto vegans who show the same benefits as I in bloods etc

LDL below 70mg/dl is optimal in that you are pretty much heart attack proof - yours is 114.

And if you can get over own hypocrisy (if you eat animal products) then I'd have a debate with you regarding veganism. IME for the few this is where the debate starts and ends when they have a dog as a pet but would eat a dead cow.

[LMT]

I’m tempted to watch as LMT -  ‘the vegan apologist’ - and IanRobo - ‘the keto man’ - slug it out:)

No offense intended.

However, you both tend to be selective in you reading of the science and i think it’s both more complex and simpler than that.

First, let me be clear that my comment about the ‘lifestyle epidemic’ was not calling anyone a glutton or sloth etc. Lifestyle is not just a choice we make, but a consequence of many factors including our social milieu, how we are impacted by advertising and probably our genetics and childhood experiences. However, it’s clear that, as Ian says, as a society we eat too much and move too little.

If we want to stem the epidemic we need to find ways to move the dial on a much wider basis. Keto is neither affordable or sustainable (including environmentally) for our global population. It’s also probably entirely unnecessary for population health. We do need to address the commercial factors at play - freedom to make ‘good choices’ in our environment is somewhat illusory for many - but there are many other factors too.

I don’t have the answer or magic bullet, but I really don’t think the medical profession is part of a conspiracy to make or keep people ill. I do think that commercial businesses are primarily about making money now and every other consideration is subject to that.


Disclosure - my father died of vascular dementia and heart disease alongside poorly controlled T2D after enjoying the good life for many years. He was 8 years younger than his father at death, albeit 82, and dipped under 100kgs in his last 2 or 3 weeks.

I've yet to come across any publications that say a plant based diet is bad for you, the issues with supplementing with vitamins B12 and D aside.
I have seen plenty though regarding Keto, mostly to do with increased levels of IGF-1 and LDL cholesterol. And the ones I have read which paint keto in a positive light are funded by the meat, dairy and egg industry or are endorsed by some idiot who calls themselves a doctor but actually isn't - Dr Eric Berg for example. Keto is Atkins but marketed differently, yet people like hearing that their bad habits are okay.



This is naïve imo, all the big medical seminars in America when it comes to obesity are sponsored by the big drug companies where talks are given about how to keep patients coming back. To have your BP taken by a doctor costs money in America, statin use has increased in the USA along with diabetes. The general consensus seems to be 'someone is sick, lets make a drug to make them better.' Rather than looking at the cause and addressing this.

Research has shown that of the top 10 long term chronic illnesses (with the exception of smoking and alcholol related) can be controlled with diet, more so the elimination of dietary cholesterol and foods high in animal protein.

[whosatthewheel]

Right these are my bloods about 6 months old now and tell me how sick I am from this



as for any vegan debate that is a pointless debate as I know a few keto vegans who show the same benefits as I in bloods etc

Not the case to brag about them... 5.7 is the national average, so you are no better 'mfraid

If you like sticking to fat, try swapping some of the animal for nuts and you should get a lower overall and more importantly a lower LDL

[Chris S]

I'm back on the path of righteousness.

This mostly means whole foods only; meat/fish + veggies/salad, eggs in the one or two forms I can stand, little bit of cheese, nuts, etc. It sure makes visiting a supermarket easy - nearly everything is irrelevant.

As LMT alluded to - moderating protein is the challenge, lest you spike your IGF-1. Some fasting is the best antidote for that; I'll probably be doing some of that too.