Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Health & Fitness => Topic started by: LEE on 07 September, 2017, 01:53:46 pm

Title: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 07 September, 2017, 01:53:46 pm
I thought I'd start this as a separate thread so those who are genuinely interested can post their views/hints/tips/links ..etc

Firstly a disclaimer: I'm in no way medically qualified to recommend any form of diet and you should consult your GP..etc..etc.  You get the picture.

My experience of reduced-calorie dieting (Weight-watcher, Slimming World and other such regimes) is like 99% of everyone else's, 6 months of success followed by ending up where I started after a year....repeat cycle for 20 years. 

I first became interested in Fasting after watching Micheal Moseley's BBC documentary where he used it to completely cure himself of Type-2 diabetes (he was in the early onset stages, even though he wasn't overweight).  It was actually the beneficial side-effects that interested me more than weight-loss, obviously preventing diabetes is a huge benefit but also the Atophagy aspect (where fasting triggers a "clearout" of damaged/mutated proteins), enhanced brain function, growth hormone release..and so on.

Recently I discovered Dr Jason Fung videos.  Jason Fung treats the morbidly Obese in his clinic, dealing with Type-2 diabetes sufferers as it relates to the Obese.

His research into the way Insulin affects diabetes AND fat regulation was eye-opening.

So, I'm not going to preach, I'm not qualified.  Here are some links to videos, watch them, don't watch them, whatever.  Your choice.  I find the reasoning and research equally compelling. He explains why continual calorie reduction is almost certainly doomed to failure, with medical research to show why.  He explains why Fasting is not doomed to failure in the same way. 

The only observation I will make is that I get starving hungry, cold and lethargic on reduced calorie diets (and end up where I started a year later).  I am none of these things when Fasting (actually the opposite, I feel alert, satiated and "normal", even after 3 days without any food (my current maximum)).

I should also point out that I am only 8 weeks into a Fasting regime/lifestyle.

Video 1 - A Summary by Jason Fung >>>>  https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w (https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w)  <<<<

Video 2 - A discussion with Jason Fung >>>> https://youtu.be/v9Aw0P7GjHE (https://youtu.be/v9Aw0P7GjHE) <<<<

Since dieting is a world full of "Old Wives' Tales" (OWTs) about "Starvation mode", Muscle loss, "Breakfast is the most vital meal" (most put about by food companies) I would recommend watching the videos fully before commenting with any more OWTs because the videos seems to be based purely in Science.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Chinaski on 07 September, 2017, 02:11:07 pm
I thought I'd start this as a separate thread so those who are genuinely interested can post their views/hints/tips/links ..etc

Firstly a disclaimer: I'm in no way medically qualified to recommend any form of diet and you should consult your GP..etc..etc.  You get the picture.

My experience of reduced-calorie dieting (Weight-watcher, Slimming World and other such regimes) is like 99% of everyone else's, 6 months of success followed by ending up where I started after a year....repeat cycle for 20 years. 

I first became interested in Fasting after watching Micheal Moseley's BBC documentary where he used it to completely cure himself of Type-2 diabetes (he was in the early onset stages, even though he wasn't overweight).  It was actually the beneficial side-effects that interested me more than weight-loss, obviously preventing diabetes is a huge benefit but also the Atophagy aspect (where fasting triggers a "clearout" of damaged/mutated proteins), enhanced brain function, growth hormone release..and so on.

Recently I discovered Dr Jason Fung videos.  Jason Fung treats the morbidly Obese in his clinic, dealing with Type-2 diabetes sufferers as it relates to the Obese.

His research into the way Insulin affects diabetes AND fat regulation was eye-opening.

So, I'm not going to preach, I'm not qualified.  Here are some links to videos, watch them, don't watch them, whatever.  Your choice.  I find the reasoning and research equally compelling. He explains why continual calorie reduction is almost certainly doomed to failure, with medical research to show why.  He explains why Fasting is not doomed to failure in the same way. 

The only observation I will make is that I get starving hungry, cold and lethargic on reduced calorie diets (and end up where I started a year later).  I am none of these things when Fasting (actually the opposite, I feel alert, satiated and "normal", even after 3 days without any food (my current maximum)).

I should also point out that I am only 8 weeks into a Fasting regime/lifestyle.

Video 1 - A Summary by Jason Fung >>>>  https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w (https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w)  <<<<

Video 2 - A discussion with Jason Fung >>>> https://youtu.be/v9Aw0P7GjHE (https://youtu.be/v9Aw0P7GjHE) <<<<

I had a long reply done in other thread and hit post when not logged in....

I haven't the time or heart to retype it all.

I watched most of video, it's basically Taubes rehashed in terms of insulin at it's role in body fat loss/gain. Insulin is a bit player, body fat is regulated primarily by leptin, hypothalamus and ghrelin and thyroid. Insulin is a bit player

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html

You want to understand insulin, spend a few hours on that site or the bio chemistry book of choice.

Unless there are RCCT showing that fasting can long term reset leptin levels/leptin reistance I doubt very much that it will work long term. In obese/overweight people the probability is that the system regulating bodyfat is set too high (St Vincents Hospital and Harvard are doing some research on immune function impairment also), unless fasting resets that can't see how it is a cure.

A charismatic guy giving presentations doesn't cut it as evidence.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 08 September, 2017, 02:19:29 pm
Well, I'll be giving it a go starting next week hopefully.

Will start off with Tuesday 11pm to Thursday lunchtime in the first week and will add Thursday 11pm to Saturday 10.30am from the week after that.

(Colour me risk averse but I don't want to try a second ever ~36h fast ending just a few hours before a 2 mile open water swim.)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 08 September, 2017, 03:34:45 pm
I've done fasting in the past, for 'health'. It was during a 'experimental' period in my life, ok?

You can get some wicked headaches when you fast for more than 3days.

Wind the calendar forward a few decades and I've had to give a few foods due to intolerances (wheat, and then caffeine). I still really miss coffee.

My experience is that if you have had to give up a whole food group it changes attitude to food. For one thing, I've become more accustomed to simply going hungry. It makes it easier to just not overeat.

I was told by a young bloke that the Japanese (his granddad was Japanese) have a belief in stopping eating while you are still hungry (he said his granddad was always nagging him to not stuff himself).

It's like a switch in the head; being hungry is ok.

My stepson has it to the opposite extreme; he would happily just remain hungry rather than go to the effort of making himself a sandwich. He is rake-thin and we have to nag him to eat.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 08 September, 2017, 04:44:05 pm
Once I'm down to my target weight I'll ease back from multi-day fasting and into 18 hours fasting (Early evening dinner followed by a delayed "breakfast" closer to a normal lunchtime).

I find the 18 hours regime extremely manageable and it seems you get many of the same benefits as you do from longer term fasting.

Body-weight management really needs to be something you can incorporate, long-term, into your lifestyle rather than brief, repeating, interludes in your overeating behaviour.

So far so good.  I'll report back, honestly, in a few months to let you know how I got on.

Laters.

FYI:
JULY 17 2017 - 92.5Kg (14st 8lb)
SEPT 08 2017 - 84.8Kg (13st 5lb)

The lowest weight I have been since 1997 is 12st 11lb (81.2Kg) on the start line of PBP2015 (actually I was probably even lighter by the end but I neglected to weigh myself during the ensuing 2 year feeding frenzy)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 19 September, 2017, 03:21:13 pm
Well, I'll be giving it a go starting next week hopefully.

Will start off with Tuesday 11pm to Thursday lunchtime in the first week and will add Thursday 11pm to Saturday 10.30am from the week after that.

Didn't start it last week so it rolls over to this week. A couple of pints in the pub tonight after 5-a-side and then nothing until Thursday lunch.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 19 September, 2017, 03:29:20 pm
Good luck GB.

It can be a bit miserable for a week or so, until your body/cells become adapted to Ketosis (That state when your stored carbs/glycogen are depleted and fat-burning takes over).

I maintain that Audax riders are likely to be more adapted to Ketosis than "normal people" and that it doesn't take as long for them to become efficient at it (fewer headaches, less hunger..etc)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: mike on 20 September, 2017, 10:04:05 am
am just starting a 'watered down' version of this, trying the 18:6 fasting pattern  -  basically just skipping breakfast, and even if it just reduces calories then I'm hoping it'll work.   Coffee & water are allowed, thankfully.   

Am on day 3 and it's been surprisingly easy.   I train on the river or rowing machine most evenings and didn't fancy trying to coordinate longer fasts with fairly intense exercise.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: pucklie24 on 21 September, 2017, 08:50:15 am
 I wish I can do this. my wife cooks real good food. who am I to resist?

I'm just not really disciplined I guess.  :-[
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 21 September, 2017, 08:57:25 am
basically just skipping breakfast

I've skipped breakfast for the vast majority of the last 10 years. My waistline is evidence that you soon work out how to make up for it at other meals.

Anyway, I'm approaching 34h of fasting and I've found it pretty easy. Definitely looking forward to my lunch (which will be bang on 12pm, I'll be queueing outside the canteen at work!)

Only slightly tricky bits were preparing food for others (afternoon snack, tea and breakfast for my daughter). Was quite tempting to butter another slice of bread to stuff in my gob, but I knew that one would just lead to another. My brain is generally ok with this though from many years working in catering and preparing food for hundreds of others a night and not getting to eat any of it (at the time).
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 21 September, 2017, 10:52:57 am
basically just skipping breakfast

I've skipped breakfast for the vast majority of the last 10 years. My waistline is evidence that you soon work out how to make up for it at other meals.

Anyway, I'm approaching 34h of fasting and I've found it pretty easy. Definitely looking forward to my lunch (which will be bang on 12pm, I'll be queueing outside the canteen at work!)

Only slightly tricky bits were preparing food for others (afternoon snack, tea and breakfast for my daughter). Was quite tempting to butter another slice of bread to stuff in my gob, but I knew that one would just lead to another. My brain is generally ok with this though from many years working in catering and preparing food for hundreds of others a night and not getting to eat any of it (at the time).

It's also tough if your Wife brings a bottle of Rioja home.  So tough in fact that I gave in to temptation last night.  Best thing to do is enjoy it and not feel guilty.   

Things will even out over time, there's no end date on this, it's not a diet, I don't have a target weight.  It needs to be a sustainable, 'for life' thing.
Targets make it a Pass or Fail exercise.  I'm currently on a Wattbike power:weight improvement class so I may be offsetting fat loss with muscle gain.

Above all else though, what I like about Fasting is the no-brainer aspect to it. 
I can't stress enough how much time you seem to get back in your day when there's no food-related activities going on.  It's probably saving us quite a bit of money as well.  I didn't open the fridge once all day yesterday.

Worth noting that I really struggled the one time I went to Wattbike class in a Fasted state.  It burns about 1,000kcals/hr and I guess I can't metabolise fat at that rate. 
I now prep for it with a bit of carb loading the previous evening and at breakfast.
Social cycling is fine. I'm estimating that requires about 300-400kcals an hour.

My friends seem horrified when they learn I go cycling after not eating for a day or two, considering it somehow life-threatening. 
I think that shows how our relationship with, and understanding of, food has changed over the last 60 years or so.

Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 21 September, 2017, 11:18:58 am
Worth noting that I really struggled the one time I went to Wattbike class in a Fasted state.

I'm going to avoid intense exercise near the end of a fast. Near the beginning of a fast it is no different to what I do already (e.g. 11km run commute in to work on a Friday morning on an empty stomach as last calorific intake was 11pm in the pub on a Thursday). The difference is that instead of EATING ALL THE THINGS at lunch on Friday I'll keep the fast going until Saturday morning with only a medium/high 30 minute cycle commute on Friday evening. I'll also have ~350kcal (chocolate milk) shortly after the Friday morning run to help ward off the sniffles.

(42 minutes until work canteen starts serving lunch...)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Blazer on 21 September, 2017, 11:55:33 am
Thanks for the thread although I'll confess I've not watched the videos (yet).

I've fasted from time to time in the past and I think it is interesting how it can change or influence your relationship to food / meal times.  I find fasting positively challenges the "it's lunchtime, I must be hungry" treadmill.

Without wanting to take the thread off topic I think one of the keys is being mindful of fasting and not treating it as purely skipping meals.  It's about fasting in that moment but then being mindful not to over consume whenever I break fast.

For me, fasting also needs to be about the quality of food I consume when I break fast.  I don't necessarily mean cost-wise but more how is the food providing what my body needs rather than just calories.

In terms of exercise on little food, when training I have quite often run in excess of 2 hrs on little more than a breakfast of a handful of raisins.  Put gels in front of me on an organised run though and I consume at every stop.

All easier said than done of course.

Keep up the good work all,

Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 22 September, 2017, 10:40:47 am
I know you should only look at weight trends over 2-3 weeks minimum and it's only been two days but blimey.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 22 September, 2017, 12:23:25 pm
I know you should only look at weight trends over 2-3 weeks minimum and it's only been two days but blimey.

You'll shed fluids like crazy initially ("water follows the sugar") but I'm 10 weeks in today and I'm 10Kg down.  1Kg a week is precisely what is predicted given the regime I'm on. 
1Kg/2.2lbs of fat is about 7500kcals and that's pretty much the same as the deficit I'm creating (and that my fat reserves are fuelling).

I'm perfectly happy with 0.5-1Kg per week averaged over a few weeks.  Expecting more than that requires some 'endurance' exercise (3-4 hour zone-2 rides) which I'm not really doing at the moment.

Hang in there GB.

FYI:
JULY 17 2017 - 92.5Kg (14st 8lb)
SEPT 08 2017 - 84.8Kg (13st 5lb)
SEPT 22 2017 - 82.6Kg (13st 0lb)

Not hungry.  30 mile ride last night in the cold....felt fast and powerful.


Note - I find this fella's videos very informative and motivational -  >>> Dr Eric Berg <<< (https://youtu.be/lwCRjwDs1Ek)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 22 September, 2017, 12:46:47 pm
You'll shed fluids like crazy initially ("water follows the sugar")

Indeed, simple physics says the weight I've "lost" can't all be fat so a significant proportion of it has to be transients.

Along with water, people are fairly full of shit [anywhere between 2.5kg and 15kg] and fasting for ~36h will mean that stuff that comes out isn't being replaced, but I was still surprised at the difference in weight (with what I thought were similar hydration levels) in the space of a few days.

Anyway, Wednesday morning is weigh day, no point getting excited before I've seen another 4 or 5 of them.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 22 September, 2017, 03:55:51 pm
I don't think people usually carry 15 kg faecal matter. I believe adult output is around ¼kg per day so few will have more than 2kg on board.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 22 September, 2017, 04:04:34 pm
It was a range I'd found by a quick google. A bit more googling suggests for the vast majority of people it will be between 2kg and 5kg.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 22 September, 2017, 04:44:14 pm
In Iran, it was around 340g/day and a 12 hour transit time, which implies  <1kg storage.

I really don't think folk who eat sensible amounts of fibre store HUGE amounts of stuff.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: sojournermike on 22 September, 2017, 09:58:31 pm
In Iran, it was around 340g/day and a 12 hour transit time, which implies  <1kg storage.

I really don't think folk who eat sensible amounts of fibre store HUGE amounts of stuff.

Tend to agree. I know if I eat too much one day for some reason it usually is gone by the second day following. Transit time usually greater than 12 and less than 30 hours (unless real ale involved of course)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 28 September, 2017, 04:42:47 pm
Just to clear up a question on the Weight Loss thread

Who should NOT Fast?
"Children: Most children, up to the age of 18, don’t need to fast. Although most children shouldn’t eat as frequently as they do, they need not engage in prolonged bouts of fasting. Children are growing and need sound nutrition to do so.
The exception to this rule is overweight children. The first step in reversing childhood obesity shouldn’t be fasting, but instead restructuring their diet. Get the child eating healthily first, removing all sugar and junk food.
After a child is eating healthily, you’ll likely find it unnecessary to also have him or her fast. But, as always, if you’re under the age of 18 or have a child who you believe might benefit from fasting, consult with your doctor first.

Also Pregnant women should not fast for the same reason as developing children.

People with medical issues, unless approved by and recommended by their GP.
"


For my part I intend to keep fasting after I (hopefully) achieve a weight in the healthy weight range.  That's because the benefits of fasting seem to go beyond weight loss. 

Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Chris S on 04 October, 2017, 02:57:57 pm
Reasonably decent 48 hour fast this week (Sunday evening to Tuesday evening). I probably could have carried on longer, but I was a bit plagued with feeling cold - hunger wasn't the problem, rather more like Bilbo's "thin" ("Like butter spread over too much bread").

I'm also playing around with some HIIT weight training (Doug McGuff - Body by Science) and I felt a wee bit light-headed a couple of times during today's workout; I think I need to allow an additional feed day between the end of a fast, and weights day to allow glycogen to build back up - especially as I'm also pretty low carb at the moment, so available glucose is pretty low, and I wasn't exactly inactive during my fast as I did 8km of hill walking each morning Monday and Tuesday, before work.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 04 October, 2017, 08:44:09 pm
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 15 October, 2017, 09:32:06 pm
First 48 hours fast from Thursday evening until Saturday evening. Mixed in with Pilates watt bike and 2 hours commuting.

No problems except perhaps more muscle pain than expected.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 19 October, 2017, 08:39:08 am
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.

Youtube is my only resource tbh.  I like the ones by Dr Eric berg as well - https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos)

As for my regime I use a combination of 100% fasted days, just water, black coffee and herb tea, combined with eating as late as I can when I'm not fasting.

Typically I've settled into 100% on Monday then and evening meal on Tuesday (I have a heavy Wattbike session 06:30 on Wednesday).  I'll eat a huge omelette on Wednesday breakfast, post Wattbike, then I'll have nothing until a beer or two on my Thursday evening club/pub ride..  I tend to skip breakfast totally now.

It's no problem at all now.  Only eating causes me an issue because it makes me feel so hungry afterwards.  Totally fasting from Sunday bedtime to Tuesday Dinnertime completely offsets any fun you had over the weekend.

BTW.  My Wattbike power increased (i did a 20 minute FTP test a week ago) and my weight is down.  I should be below 13st tomorrow.  I was 14st 8lb in July, with less power.

My own non-scientific. self-based, research tells me that I gained muscle and/or efficiency whilst losing body mass.  I'm wearing smaller sized clothes, I feel better, I look better and life feels generally better. What's not to like? 

I think it's about choosing a regime that fits your life.  It's a "for life" thing, not a diet.  Diets have a target, an end-point.  That's why I've failed for 20 years.  When I reached my target I reverted to my old ways.  My plan is to make this regime my new "old ways".

If fasting for multiple days is too tough then just try confining your calories to a short period, say 1pm - 5pm.  That gives your body time to burn fat for 20 hours.

When I see cakes now I just see them as something that will completely shut down my body's ability to burn fat (lose weight) for the next few hours. 
That thought alone pretty much stopped my snacking lifestyle.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: simonp on 26 October, 2017, 03:03:11 pm
16:8 IF in trained males.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27737674/
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hulver on 26 October, 2017, 04:04:27 pm
I can say that 22 hour fasting makes absolutely no difference to me. For 3 days a week, I eat nothing from 8pm on one day until 6 pm on the next. Then I have a normal dinner. Try to have a normal dinner.

What I actually do is eat something at 6 while I'm cooking dinner, then have something after dinner as well, then propably pig out a bit the next day.

So, that's not really doing much.  ;D

I think I need to get a bit stricter. Maybe do 5 days a week on the 22 hour thing. If that doesn't work, move up to multi day fasting like LEE.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Chinaski on 12 January, 2018, 09:40:57 am
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.

Youtube is my only resource tbh.  I like the ones by Dr Eric berg as well - https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos)

As for my regime I use a combination of 100% fasted days, just water, black coffee and herb tea, combined with eating as late as I can when I'm not fasting.

Typically I've settled into 100% on Monday then and evening meal on Tuesday (I have a heavy Wattbike session 06:30 on Wednesday).  I'll eat a huge omelette on Wednesday breakfast, post Wattbike, then I'll have nothing until a beer or two on my Thursday evening club/pub ride..  I tend to skip breakfast totally now.

It's no problem at all now.  Only eating causes me an issue because it makes me feel so hungry afterwards.  Totally fasting from Sunday bedtime to Tuesday Dinnertime completely offsets any fun you had over the weekend.

BTW.  My Wattbike power increased (i did a 20 minute FTP test a week ago) and my weight is down.  I should be below 13st tomorrow.  I was 14st 8lb in July, with less power.

My own non-scientific. self-based, research tells me that I gained muscle and/or efficiency whilst losing body mass.  I'm wearing smaller sized clothes, I feel better, I look better and life feels generally better. What's not to like? 

I think it's about choosing a regime that fits your life.  It's a "for life" thing, not a diet.  Diets have a target, an end-point.  That's why I've failed for 20 years.  When I reached my target I reverted to my old ways.  My plan is to make this regime my new "old ways".

If fasting for multiple days is too tough then just try confining your calories to a short period, say 1pm - 5pm.  That gives your body time to burn fat for 20 hours.

When I see cakes now I just see them as something that will completely shut down my body's ability to burn fat (lose weight) for the next few hours. 
That thought alone pretty much stopped my snacking lifestyle.

How did fasting work out? Did Leptin raise it's ugly head?
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: crowriver on 12 January, 2018, 03:52:27 pm
I've done 5:2 on and off since seeing that Horizon programme in 2013.

I can say it works when you do it. It's reasonably quick but not drastically so. I can also say the weight goes back on when you stop doing it. Over the past year either my fasting was overcompensated by extra eating on non-fasting days, or my metabolism has shifted gear, not sure which but progress in weight loss was much slower than previous attempts.

So I'm back on it now, along with cutting out most snacks, and milk in most things including hot beverages. Will try not to overdo it on non-fasting days too: that takes the old standby, willpower...

We shall see how it works out.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 15 January, 2018, 06:26:34 pm
How did fasting work out? Did Leptin raise it's ugly head?

When I stuck to it then fasting worked like nothing else I tried before.

All bets were off over Christmas and I put weight on again (nothing new there) but I entered 2018 the lightest I've been on Jan 2nd for 20 years (since I started tracking my weight).

I'm back on it now, easing my way back into multi-day fasting by way of eating fewer meals per day.

I hope to be my lightest in 20 years by Spring (whilst still building power at Wattbike classes..although I'll be happy to simply maintain power if I lose a lot of weight).
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 28 February, 2018, 08:59:00 am
Fell out of the habit but back on it from this week.

Had a couple of beers after 5-a-side last night (11pm) and I'll have some chocolate milk after I've done an hour long swim later this morning otherwise nothing else (apart from black coffee and water) until lunch time tomorrow. Looking forward to that meal already!
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Manotea on 01 March, 2018, 10:54:43 pm
I'm usually mad for these types of diets - Exhibit A: Keto - but I have trouble getting my head round the concept of fasting, 'as a way of life'.

Do it occasionally, for a change of pace, whatever, but beyond that it seems a bit odd.

The nearest I've been to trying an extended fast was having a crack at the 'lemonade' diet a few years back (that would be Exhibit B) on the recommendation of a cousin of mine who felt it helped him with some (real) chronic physical problems he was experiencing.   I followed it for about two weeks then stopped mostly out of boredom. The actual fast/diet went very well, and I seemed to be operating reasonably normally on a energy intake of <500Cal a day. I wasn't audaxing at the time but I swam, ran or cycled most days during the fast/diet so I was fairly active by 'normal' standards.

What I didn't expect was the feeling of 'existing outside normal society', as occasional visits to the local supermarket to 'score' some lemons and maple syrup became forays into the belly of the socio-industrial-military complex (who needs all this stuff? why is all this energy being devoted to trying to sell it? am I the only one who can see whats going on? It was like being on the set of They Live (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJC4R1uXDaE))

Devotees of fasts describe it as helping them to become more spiritual and self focused... I have no doubt there is an effect.... whether its beneficial or not depends on the individal and their circumstance. It's not hard to see how it can exacerbate feelings of alienation, with everything that goes with it. Almost as bad as endurance sports...

The killer though is how do you do to relax and socialise as part of your regular lifestyle? What do you do with all the time freed up from shopping, cooking, eating and associated socialising? Work? [1]

[1]Not a problem on keto which allows spirits (vodka, rum, gin, tequila, whiskey...), consumption of which takes care of socialising and the extra time... :)
[2]The major drawback I found with the Lemonade Diet is that all that citric acid and syrup is terrible for your teeth. In contrast Keto seems great for teeth (no sugar)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 01 March, 2018, 11:10:58 pm
I feel different in a fasted state.
So long as I'm not desperate, I can go without food a while.
I try to extend the gaps between small, normal meals.
I might be losing weight but I'm not sure!
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Manotea on 01 March, 2018, 11:17:16 pm
That's roughly how I feel about eating keto, when I'm in the zone the appetite trigger has completely gone, and I choose to eat, or not. 'Fasting' doesn't come into it.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Auntie Helen on 02 March, 2018, 05:07:55 am
I am doing Keto and as I am not hungry most of the time I do the 18:6 fasting. In other words, I eat my lunch at 13:30 and dinner at 19:00 and that’s it - no breakfast or snacks.

I find it very easy. I started doing fasting on Tuesday and Tgursday but this week did Monday to Wednesday. I had breakfast yesterday as i felt slightly peckish when I woke up but I don’t actually think i needed it and I felt hungrier during the day, weirdly. Fasting again today. I don’t do it at weekends.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 02 March, 2018, 08:07:24 am
I find I have more time to exercise when fasting as work will fill in the rest of the time available.  I really like 24 hour fasts as they give a real structure and make sure I do fast.  On partial fast days I find myself more hungry and cheating.

Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: crowriver on 07 March, 2018, 12:17:28 pm
What I didn't expect was the feeling of 'existing outside normal society', as occasional visits to the local supermarket to 'score' some lemons and maple syrup became forays into the belly of the socio-industrial-military complex (who needs all this stuff? why is all this energy being devoted to trying to sell it? am I the only one who can see whats going on? It was like being on the set of They Live (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJC4R1uXDaE))

Devotees of fasts describe it as helping them to become more spiritual and self focused... I have no doubt there is an effect.... whether its beneficial or not depends on the individal and their circumstance. It's not hard to see how it can exacerbate feelings of alienation, with everything that goes with it. Almost as bad as endurance sports...

Haha! Being on a different diet regime and being a cyclist - alienation overdose! I find it's best just to deal with the "outsider" status as it won't go away anytime soon. Try living car-free if you want to really experience the bafflement and disapproval of "society"...  ;D

all that citric acid and syrup is terrible for your teeth. In contrast Keto seems great for teeth (no sugar)

I'd have thought you may get stomach problems too? My father used to get digestive issues from his preference for tea with lemon (he finds the idea of sloshing milk into tea bizarre).
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: crowriver on 07 March, 2018, 12:22:47 pm
Am I to take it that most folk here are practicing "total" fasting (i.e. no food)?

I'm still on 5:2 but eat on the fasting days, just below 600 calories per day. The only time I do "total" fasting is if I'm busy with something and "forget" to eat: used to do that a lot in my twenties, probably why I was so thin...
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LMT on 07 March, 2018, 12:44:45 pm
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.

Youtube is my only resource tbh.  I like the ones by Dr Eric berg as well - https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos)

As for my regime I use a combination of 100% fasted days, just water, black coffee and herb tea, combined with eating as late as I can when I'm not fasting.

Typically I've settled into 100% on Monday then and evening meal on Tuesday (I have a heavy Wattbike session 06:30 on Wednesday).  I'll eat a huge omelette on Wednesday breakfast, post Wattbike, then I'll have nothing until a beer or two on my Thursday evening club/pub ride..  I tend to skip breakfast totally now.

It's no problem at all now.  Only eating causes me an issue because it makes me feel so hungry afterwards.  Totally fasting from Sunday bedtime to Tuesday Dinnertime completely offsets any fun you had over the weekend.

BTW.  My Wattbike power increased (i did a 20 minute FTP test a week ago) and my weight is down.  I should be below 13st tomorrow.  I was 14st 8lb in July, with less power.

My own non-scientific. self-based, research tells me that I gained muscle and/or efficiency whilst losing body mass.  I'm wearing smaller sized clothes, I feel better, I look better and life feels generally better. What's not to like

I think it's about choosing a regime that fits your life.  It's a "for life" thing, not a diet.  Diets have a target, an end-point.  That's why I've failed for 20 years.  When I reached my target I reverted to my old ways.  My plan is to make this regime my new "old ways".

If fasting for multiple days is too tough then just try confining your calories to a short period, say 1pm - 5pm.  That gives your body time to burn fat for 20 hours.

When I see cakes now I just see them as something that will completely shut down my body's ability to burn fat (lose weight) for the next few hours. 
That thought alone pretty much stopped my snacking lifestyle.

That you need stimulants to get through your day?

Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 07 March, 2018, 01:12:47 pm
Your only comment from LEE's post is about a mild stimulant usage?

Doesn't really apply to me though as I drink decaf, although there's still 10% of the caffeine of normal coffee the quantities of stimulants are negligible.

Am I to take it that most folk here are practicing "total" fasting (i.e. no food)?

My 5:2 is more like 6:1, or probably closer to 11:3.

When I can it'll be total fasting. Just water and black (decaf) coffee for just over 36h (last calorific intake late evening - pub usually, fast whole next day, and then eating lunch).

If I do some significant exercise during the fast then I'll have my usual 500ml of chocolate milk as a makeshift protein recovery shake, that's only 350kcal though. This helps ward of sniffles after significant exercise (>1h swim, >2h cycle, >30m run).
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LMT on 07 March, 2018, 01:21:27 pm
Your only comment from LEE's post is about a mild stimulant usage?

Doesn't really apply to me though as I drink decaf, although there's still 10% of the caffeine of normal coffee the quantities of stimulants are negligible.

Am I to take it that most folk here are practicing "total" fasting (i.e. no food)?

My 5:2 is more like 6:1, or probably closer to 11:3.

When I can it'll be total fasting. Just water and black (decaf) coffee for just over 36h (last calorific intake late evening - pub usually, fast whole next day, and then eating lunch).

If I do some significant exercise during the fast then I'll have my usual 500ml of chocolate milk as a makeshift protein recovery shake, that's only 350kcal though. This helps ward of sniffles after significant exercise (>1h swim, >2h cycle, >30m run).

You'd need to define 'mild', how many cups of coffee per day?

And this goes the crux of issue, you need calories to sustain yourself as well as all the necessary vitamins and minerals. If Lee has no objections then he should post what he eats in a week and I'll put this into Cronometer. LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health. But then again people love hearing that their bad habits if done a certain way are okay to do.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Manotea on 07 March, 2018, 02:07:14 pm
LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health.

Bang on. In fact the only diets which are worse are... all the others. :)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: lahoski on 07 March, 2018, 06:29:42 pm
LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health.

Citation please.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LMT on 07 March, 2018, 09:30:45 pm
LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health.

Citation please.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/pdf/pone.0055030.pdf
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Auntie Helen on 08 March, 2018, 04:57:11 am
That report seems to be on Low Carb High Protein diets which are somewhat different than most of as are doing here (LCHF). Also, they don’t seem to specify how ‘low’ is low for the carb.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on 08 March, 2018, 06:10:38 am
Your only comment from LEE's post is about a mild stimulant usage?

Doesn't really apply to me though as I drink decaf, although there's still 10% of the caffeine of normal coffee the quantities of stimulants are negligible.

Am I to take it that most folk here are practicing "total" fasting (i.e. no food)?



My 5:2 is more like 6:1, or probably closer to 11:3.

When I can it'll be total fasting. Just water and black (decaf) coffee for just over 36h (last calorific intake late evening - pub usually, fast whole next day, and then eating lunch).

If I do some significant exercise during the fast then I'll have my usual 500ml of chocolate milk as a makeshift protein recovery shake, that's only 350kcal though. This helps ward of sniffles after significant exercise (>1h swim, >2h cycle, >30m run).

You'd need to define 'mild', how many cups of coffee per day?

And this goes the crux of issue, you need calories to sustain yourself as well as all the necessary vitamins and minerals. If Lee has no objections then he should post what he eats in a week and I'll put this into Cronometer. LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health. But then again people love hearing that their bad habits if done a certain way are okay to do.

alarmist nonesense.   I would love to know what you think we are all eating?    My diet is made up entirely of fresh, natural, vitamin dense real food.   I would be happy to make a food diary for a week if you would like it?
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 08 March, 2018, 06:28:19 am
My diet is very boring.
Generally no breakfast, possibly a hard boiled egg

I have home made soup or home made sauerkraut for lunch usually with a helping of fresh blueberries or raspberries. In the winter I tend to make a jelly with sugar free raspberry jelly whipped with frozen home  grown raspberries and some cream

Dinner is either a small helping of prawns dry fried, a chicken breast or once a week we have a small steak. This is accompanied by either steamed cauliflower mash, courgettini or once a week celeriac chips or distillery. The chips are done with coconut oil.

My snacks tend to be slices of home dried fruit such as tangerines or cooking apples.

Is this healthy enough?
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on 08 March, 2018, 06:54:50 am
My diet is very boring.
Generally no breakfast, possibly a hard boiled egg

I have home made soup or home made sauerkraut for lunch usually with a helping of fresh blueberries or raspberries. In the winter I tend to make a jelly with sugar free raspberry jelly whipped with frozen home  grown raspberries and some cream

Dinner is either a small helping of prawns dry fried, a chicken breast or once a week we have a small steak. This is accompanied by either steamed cauliflower mash, courgettini or once a week celeriac chips or distillery. The chips are done with coconut oil.

My snacks tend to be slices of home dried fruit such as tangerines or cooking apples.

Is this healthy enough?


I would struggle with that (down to personal taste and calorific requirement) but I wouldn’t say it’s unhealthy.   I would want way more green veg and more veg in general.   Could do without the jelly and I don’t really eat fruit anymore other than when strawberries are in.   I have quite a bit of sweet potato around training too

Hard to rate anyone’s diet without knowing their size, intentions and activity level
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 08 March, 2018, 07:12:49 am
The soup is generally made with a vast amount of celery as it is an easy volume/fibre.

I also often have pickled cucumber, kimchi, etc on the go and sauerkraut can be white green or red.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 08 March, 2018, 08:06:41 am
You'd need to define 'mild', how many cups of coffee per day?

For me it's probably 50mg of caffeine per day (usually 5 cups of decaf). Various google searches suggest up to 400mg of caffeine per day is 'safe' and not considered excessive.

What's your definition of 'too much'?

And this goes the crux of issue, you need calories to sustain yourself as well as all the necessary vitamins and minerals. If Lee has no objections then he should post what he eats in a week and I'll put this into Cronometer. LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health. But then again people love hearing that their bad habits if done a certain way are okay to do.

I'm not sure what part your arguing about as you've touched on about 5 different issues in those few sentences.

Calories are required to sustain yourself, so if you want to lose weight then you need to restrict calorific intake, expend more (do more exercise) or otherwise change calorific intake so that it is in deficit based on BMR and exercise.

LCHF is a form of calorie restriction but isn't combined with fasting. The specific 'thing' about fasting (compared to just changing what you eat) is how it avoids the insulin spikes that hinder fat metabolism.

The majority of people moving off a LCHF regimen after losing weight will tend to slowly put it back on over time as they return to their previous calorific intake (but due to their weight loss their BMR is now lower than before, so eating what they used to eat slowly returns them to that original weight).

Those who've fasted regularly find it much easier to (subconsciously) reset their calorific intake based on their new BMR, so they are more likely to keep the weight off.

Appropriately chosen foods, even if eaten as part of a restricted calorie regimen, will still provide the necessary vitamins and minerals. I don't think of calorie deficits at the daily level any more, it's more of a weekly balance check, since fasting days have 0-350kcal intake and the day when the fast ends I may eat more than a 'normal' day. The point is that over time I'm running a accumulating deficit.

I agree that perpetual calorific deficit is not sustainable, but that's not what happens. When I'm lighter I tend to do a lot more exercise (increased marathon training, more cycling, etc) and more intensive. My calorific intake may increase but this in response to the increase demands from exercise. I can still fast regularly and not run a deficit. The body does not fall apart if it receives it's 7 days worth of calories in 5 days with 2 days fasting along the way, the concept of having to eat a certain amount per solar day is an entirely artificial construction.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LMT on 08 March, 2018, 05:21:25 pm
You'd need to define 'mild', how many cups of coffee per day?

For me it's probably 50mg of caffeine per day (usually 5 cups of decaf). Various google searches suggest up to 400mg of caffeine per day is 'safe' and not considered excessive.

What's your definition of 'too much'?

And this goes the crux of issue, you need calories to sustain yourself as well as all the necessary vitamins and minerals. If Lee has no objections then he should post what he eats in a week and I'll put this into Cronometer. LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health. But then again people love hearing that their bad habits if done a certain way are okay to do.

I'm not sure what part your arguing about as you've touched on about 5 different issues in those few sentences.

Calories are required to sustain yourself, so if you want to lose weight then you need to restrict calorific intake, expend more (do more exercise) or otherwise change calorific intake so that it is in deficit based on BMR and exercise.

LCHF is a form of calorie restriction but isn't combined with fasting. The specific 'thing' about fasting (compared to just changing what you eat) is how it avoids the insulin spikes that hinder fat metabolism.

The majority of people moving off a LCHF regimen after losing weight will tend to slowly put it back on over time as they return to their previous calorific intake (but due to their weight loss their BMR is now lower than before, so eating what they used to eat slowly returns them to that original weight).

Those who've fasted regularly find it much easier to (subconsciously) reset their calorific intake based on their new BMR, so they are more likely to keep the weight off.

Appropriately chosen foods, even if eaten as part of a restricted calorie regimen, will still provide the necessary vitamins and minerals. I don't think of calorie deficits at the daily level any more, it's more of a weekly balance check, since fasting days have 0-350kcal intake and the day when the fast ends I may eat more than a 'normal' day. The point is that over time I'm running a accumulating deficit.

I agree that perpetual calorific deficit is not sustainable, but that's not what happens. When I'm lighter I tend to do a lot more exercise (increased marathon training, more cycling, etc) and more intensive. My calorific intake may increase but this in response to the increase demands from exercise. I can still fast regularly and not run a deficit. The body does not fall apart if it receives it's 7 days worth of calories in 5 days with 2 days fasting along the way, the concept of having to eat a certain amount per solar day is an entirely artificial construction.

I don't believe you need to reduce your calorie intake to lose weight - you need to look at what calories you are taking on. A banana will give me on average around 150 calories, I could also get 150 calories from around 17 grams of butter. What would you have out of the two and why?

You need a better understanding of insulin and what it does to the body, losing weight (and the onset of type II diabetes) is not about insulin spikes - it's about insulin sensitivity. Mashed potato on it's own, or mashed potato with a tuna steak, which do you think will lead to a higher level of insulin in the blood?

And if you eat the appropriate foods (plant based) you won't need to calorie restrict to lose weight, you certainly won't need to starve yourself but not eating for x amount of days.

Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 08 March, 2018, 05:27:14 pm
150 Calories is a VERY big banana!
NSFW is elsewhere on yacf...
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LMT on 08 March, 2018, 05:35:24 pm
My diet is very boring.
Generally no breakfast, possibly a hard boiled egg

I have home made soup or home made sauerkraut for lunch usually with a helping of fresh blueberries or raspberries. In the winter I tend to make a jelly with sugar free raspberry jelly whipped with frozen home  grown raspberries and some cream

Dinner is either a small helping of prawns dry fried, a chicken breast or once a week we have a small steak. This is accompanied by either steamed cauliflower mash, courgettini or once a week celeriac chips or distillery. The chips are done with coconut oil.

My snacks tend to be slices of home dried fruit such as tangerines or cooking apples.

Is this healthy enough?

In short no, you meet your protein needs, vit c, iron and sodium but not much else. Although the above is rich in trans fats, cholesterol, and saturated fat but hey you are losing weight so what's not to like! :thumbsup:  :)


Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LMT on 08 March, 2018, 05:37:05 pm
150 Calories is a VERY big banana!
NSFW is elsewhere on yacf...

There's bananas and there are M&S bananas....2 of these bad boys and a handful of almonds and walnuts for breakfast sets me up for the day. :)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 08 March, 2018, 08:28:46 pm
LMT, what am I not eating?  I have pretty much all my vitamins covered, trace elements, fat, protein.  Fair amount of fibre
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 09 March, 2018, 08:52:20 am
I don't believe you need to reduce your calorie intake to lose weight

Nor do I. What've I said pretty consistently is that you need to modify your calorific intake to ensure you are running a deficit (once you take into account intake and expenditure [from both exercise and BMR]) in order to lose weight. There are many possibilities to this on a sliding scale:-
a) Do the same exercise and eat less than you were eating before
b) Eat the same as before but do more exercise
c) Eat more than before but do even more exercise
etc.

- you need to look at what calories you are taking on. A banana will give me on average around 150 calories, I could also get 150 calories from around 17 grams of butter. What would you have out of the two and why?

Choosing between a banana and butter for 150kcal is an entirely false dichotomy, whatever your calorific intake it should be a balance of fats, protein, carbs, etc all of the various different types in appropriate proportions.

You need a better understanding of insulin and what it does to the body, losing weight (and the onset of type II diabetes) is not about insulin spikes - it's about insulin sensitivity. Mashed potato on it's own, or mashed potato with a tuna steak, which do you think will lead to a higher level of insulin in the blood?

I'm sure we all need a better understanding, but following the videos of certain doctors have been useful. I'm not sure of the point of your specific question. Fasting is concerned with the longer term insulin response, not the specific response to individual meals.

And if you eat the appropriate foods (plant based) you won't need to calorie restrict to lose weight, you certainly won't need to starve yourself but not eating for x amount of days.

Again you misrepresent how most people approach fasting.

The concept of having to eat x calories per 24 hours is an entirely artificial construct. The human body does not fall apart if you don't eat for 24 hours or if you shift some of those calories around to previous/later days.

Instead, consider ensuring you eat 7x calories over 168 hours (7 days).

Lets assume someone is eating 2500kcal per day and maintaining their weight (so this is balanced with the exercise they do) and wants to lose 1lb a week. 1lb of fat is roughly 3500 kcal so that's the target deficit per week.

Current: 2500 * 7 = 17500 kcal/week

New Target: 17500 - 3500 = 14000 kcal/week

They can either target 14000/7 = 2000 kcal/day or opt for a 5:2 fasting model such as:-

(14000-1000)/5 = 2600 kcal/day for 5 days, plus two days at 500 kcal. (Which is a typical 5:2 style.) That still adds up to 14000kcal per week, so sustain this and if the average expenditure really is 2500kcal per day then it will lead to weight loss (if they keep up the exercise they were doing before, etc).

None of this emotive 'starving yourself' stuff, just two days of really cutting back that, as you'll find here, the people who do this have no problem with.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LMT on 09 March, 2018, 12:33:56 pm
I don't believe you need to reduce your calorie intake to lose weight

Nor do I. What've I said pretty consistently is that you need to modify your calorific intake to ensure you are running a deficit (once you take into account intake and expenditure [from both exercise and BMR]) in order to lose weight. There are many possibilities to this on a sliding scale:-
a) Do the same exercise and eat less than you were eating before
b) Eat the same as before but do more exercise
c) Eat more than before but do even more exercise
etc.

- you need to look at what calories you are taking on. A banana will give me on average around 150 calories, I could also get 150 calories from around 17 grams of butter. What would you have out of the two and why?

Choosing between a banana and butter for 150kcal is an entirely false dichotomy, whatever your calorific intake it should be a balance of fats, protein, carbs, etc all of the various different types in appropriate proportions.

You need a better understanding of insulin and what it does to the body, losing weight (and the onset of type II diabetes) is not about insulin spikes - it's about insulin sensitivity. Mashed potato on it's own, or mashed potato with a tuna steak, which do you think will lead to a higher level of insulin in the blood?

I'm sure we all need a better understanding, but following the videos of certain doctors have been useful. I'm not sure of the point of your specific question. Fasting is concerned with the longer term insulin response, not the specific response to individual meals.

And if you eat the appropriate foods (plant based) you won't need to calorie restrict to lose weight, you certainly won't need to starve yourself but not eating for x amount of days.

Again you misrepresent how most people approach fasting.

The concept of having to eat x calories per 24 hours is an entirely artificial construct. The human body does not fall apart if you don't eat for 24 hours or if you shift some of those calories around to previous/later days.

Instead, consider ensuring you eat 7x calories over 168 hours (7 days).

Lets assume someone is eating 2500kcal per day and maintaining their weight (so this is balanced with the exercise they do) and wants to lose 1lb a week. 1lb of fat is roughly 3500 kcal so that's the target deficit per week.

Current: 2500 * 7 = 17500 kcal/week

New Target: 17500 - 3500 = 14000 kcal/week

They can either target 14000/7 = 2000 kcal/day or opt for a 5:2 fasting model such as:-

(14000-1000)/5 = 2600 kcal/day for 5 days, plus two days at 500 kcal. (Which is a typical 5:2 style.) That still adds up to 14000kcal per week, so sustain this and if the average expenditure really is 2500kcal per day then it will lead to weight loss (if they keep up the exercise they were doing before, etc).

None of this emotive 'starving yourself' stuff, just two days of really cutting back that, as you'll find here, the people who do this have no problem with.

''...so if you want to lose weight then you need to restrict calorific intake..''

Just quoting what you said GB, don't be moving the goalposts.

Choosing between a banana and some butter is not a false dichotomy, it highlights that if you opt for a diet that is largely based around fat - in particular animal fat then this is calorie dense and in some cases 'empty' calories where as a plant based diet is rich in dietary fibre which keeps you fuller for longer, this applying to both carbs and plant based fat such as nuts, seeds and fruits i.e. Avacado's

And again with the insulin response, it's about insulin sensitivity.  :facepalm:

And you can call it what you want but any sort of calorie restrictive diet is only allows about 350-500 calories even for two days is starving yourself.

Carry on with a fad diet, eating animal protein that lowers your insulin sensitivity thus driving up insulin levels which forces you to starve yourself for two days of the week in order to lose weight - sounds like fun.

Me on the other hand, I'll stick to a plant based diet rich in vits, minerals and fibre, plant based fats which keep me fuller for longer and as these are largely unsaturated so any fat not absorbed passes through the body. Average calorie intake is around 2800 per day and I still lose weight. Go figure, after all, more calories out over more calories in means you lose weight?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 09 March, 2018, 02:16:44 pm
Me on the other hand, I'll stick to a plant based diet rich in vits, minerals and fibre, plant based fats which keep me fuller for longer and as these are largely unsaturated so any fat not absorbed passes through the body. Average calorie intake is around 2800 per day and I still lose weight. Go figure, after all, more calories out over more calories in means you lose weight?  :facepalm:

I really don't think this occurs if you have a normal digestive system!
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Greenbank on 09 March, 2018, 02:48:13 pm
''...so if you want to lose weight then you need to restrict calorific intake..''

Just quoting what you said GB, don't be moving the goalposts.

I think it's quite clear what I mean, restrict in the context of intake and expenditure. I've said it several times that this could mean INCREASING INTAKE as long as exercise is increased accordingly.

If you want to play games with how you interpret my words feel free but I'm not playing that game.

Choosing between a banana and some butter is not a false dichotomy, it highlights that if you opt for a diet that is largely based around fat - in particular animal fat then this is calorie dense and in some cases 'empty' calories where as a plant based diet is rich in dietary fibre which keeps you fuller for longer, this applying to both carbs and plant based fat such as nuts, seeds and fruits i.e. Avacado's

Your choice was in the context of 150kcal. Again, you could eat 150kcal of most normal foods as long as the rest of the calories made up for a balanced input.

And again with the insulin response, it's about insulin sensitivity.  :facepalm:

Again, picking up on a single word that could mean the same thing. Not playing.

And you can call it what you want but any sort of calorie restrictive diet is only allows about 350-500 calories even for two days is starving yourself.

Not playing the 'emotive language' game either. Have you ever tried fasting for a day? It's not really 'starving yourself'.

And, again, what you do on a single specific day needs to be taken in context of what you do over a longer period. It's like judging my diet based on what I eat for lunch alone and, if I miss out lunch because I'm busy, that I'm effectively 'starving myself'. No, I mostly make up for it over a longer period (a day in this case, a week in general terms) but run a slight deficit to help with weight loss.

Carry on with a fad diet, eating animal protein that lowers your insulin sensitivity thus driving up insulin levels which forces you to starve yourself for two days of the week in order to lose weight - sounds like fun.

'fad diet'. More name calling.

Me on the other hand, I'll stick to a plant based diet rich in vits, minerals and fibre, plant based fats which keep me fuller for longer and as these are largely unsaturated so any fat not absorbed passes through the body.

Sounds great for you. You're free to do what you want, why don't you start your own thread about it and let people comment on it there.

Average calorie intake is around 2800 per day and I still lose weight. Go figure, after all, more calories out over more calories in means you lose weight?  :facepalm:

Fuck me, that's exactly what I've been saying all along! But the point is you don't have to calculate the deficit in strict 24 hour periods.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: sojournermike on 09 March, 2018, 03:02:25 pm
Me on the other hand, I'll stick to a plant based diet rich in vits, minerals and fibre, plant based fats which keep me fuller for longer and as these are largely unsaturated so any fat not absorbed passes through the body. Average calorie intake is around 2800 per day and I still lose weight. Go figure, after all, more calories out over more calories in means you lose weight?  :facepalm:

I really don't think this occurs if you have a normal digestive system!

No, there's really good research on calorie in/out and weight gain/loss. There may be some circumstances that mean that we don't properly absorb all our food offers (they aren't usually very pleasant or easy to spell!), but by and large we are disturbingly efficient energy extractors.

I had a play with low carb and there was no question that I lost weight, but I didn;t actually eat that much. The challenge with bread is that it's easy to eat a lot of it and then go back for one more piece. Obviously ignores all the stuff about carbs driving insulin resistance, which I am not commenting on here.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 09 March, 2018, 03:24:00 pm
Orlistat was known as 'oilyshat'...

If you want to discard fat you eat, you need to have pharmaceutical or surgical help, or some kind of disease.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 09 March, 2018, 03:31:26 pm
I still think starchy carbs are maligned somewhat. I don't deny their potential for an insulin response but believe they act as a 'carrier' or blotting paper for other energy-dense foods.
Plain potatoes are nowhere near as calorific as chips and ketchup, which will increase your portion size.

For myself, I would eat one slice of dry toast but two slices of buttered toast with jam.

Strikes me as unfair to blame the bread for the butter and jam...
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on 09 March, 2018, 03:39:13 pm
I'm not arguing with LMT - most of his post is correct.

However - there is a reason that reasonably intelligent, highly active people like myself ended up 7 stone over weight and why I was unable to successfully lose that weight following "normal" western dietary advice of calories out v calories in.  I was always told "little and often", "don't skip breakfast", "if you skip a meal your metabolism will stop", "fill up on pasta and fruit" ect ec.   The more I exercised the hungrier and bigger I got.  I could lose a few stone then it would all go back on plus a bit more.

I have very different emotional responses to some calories compared to others.   If I eat a banana I then want more sweet stuff to the point of distraction.   If I instead eat some cheese or an egg then I don't want sweet stuff.   I am also not capable of eating little and often.   You can tell me it is better to do that until you are blue in the face but I just cant do it.   What I can do is skip breakfast and lunch, do fasted cardio and then eat a lovely big dinner full of goodness.   I can do that a few times a week.   I lose serious weight doing this and I can maintain by upping my calories- without going off the rails. 

Not all calories are the same and that information is missing from traditional western dietary advice.  That for me is the reason behind many peoples obesity.

Intermittent fasting and HFLC isn't for everyone - but it is life changing for some and it certainly isn't a fad, or unhealthy or unsustainable.   It should certainly be a realistic option for people like me and needs proper research carried out without prejudice or scare mongering.    Far from being a fad, or a marketing tool its actually much harder to market and sell people fasting or hflc than traditional "diets" as its largely free of charge and doesn't require a book or support group!

Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: velosam on 09 March, 2018, 04:13:09 pm
I am not sure I lose much either, but my fasting regime is really only the 16:8, although its sometimes a bit longer.  I think I am basically eating more in less time!
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 09 March, 2018, 04:27:32 pm
I don't fast.
I do skip meals or have long gaps between feeds.
My meals are seldom HUGE but I enjoy a big meal socially, which is only fairly infrequent.
I am no longer overweight, though have been, mildly. (Over 12 stone at some points).
I don't exercise. (I can't.)
I'd like to be a little lighter but can't tell if my weight is falling.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: simonp on 09 March, 2018, 04:30:46 pm
I don't fast.

I sometimes forget to eat, and often forgo breakfast.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Kev Sp8 on 28 March, 2018, 08:40:41 am
I don't fast.

I sometimes forget to eat, and often forgo breakfast.

Damn, I wish I could forget to eat sometimes.

I'm generally either eating, or thinking about eating! I've been locked in a perpetual struggle with the scales since my teens. In recent years, I've gained some level of control, largely through increased exercise, though I've also developed greater reserves of self discipline regarding food.

For the record, I'm currently 15st on the nose. I got down as low as 14st 6lbs last summer and am aiming to get back there and hopefully beyond. I've given the 5:2 fasting model a bash a few times, but find that the hunger pangs are so potent, particularly at the start of day 2 of the fast, that I end up over eating whenever I try it.

The weight loss/control method that seems to work best for me is counting calories. I'm finding that erring on the side of a more plant based diet keeps the wolf from the door for longer and I find the habit forming nature of counting everything I eat keeps me mindful of my intake.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: crowriver on 28 March, 2018, 08:43:53 am
I've given the 5:2 fasting model a bash a few times, but find that the hunger pangs are so potent, particularly at the start of day 2 of the fast, that I end up over eating whenever I try it.

You could try spacing the fasting days out over the week instead of bunching them together? Worked for me for years. Though I'm now doing the fasting back to back, it works with my current schedule.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: py on 06 June, 2018, 10:03:48 am
I'd a look at the 5:2 fasting method several years ago when a colleague informed me of it but I couldn't handle it at the time. Stumbled upon the 16:8 method in the past few months and committed to it in the past 3 weeks and have dropped 6Kg in that period, plenty of excess Kgs to move so perhaps it's moving quicker right now and will slow down later. Mon-Fri in work typically works out as follows:

10am - porridge made with water and several pieces of fruit (banana, raspberries, blackberries) run through it for some sweetness
12pm - protein bar with cup of tea
2pm - Dinner
4pm - Fruit/seeds/nuts or a Nakd bar with cup of tea
5:30-6pm - scrambled eggs or salmon/cod fillet or peanut butter on ryvita/toast

I tend to be satiated after the feed at around 6pm and will feel fine till breakfast in the morning. Weekends tend to be a bit different but I try to keep the above schedule but with 2 young kids it can be difficult to keep to the exact times. I do plan ahead if we're heading out though and will bring fruit and/or protein bars with me.

Due to the young family, cycling has been restricted to commutes and I'll also get out for a walk at lunch time during the week. When I do get back in to longer distances I'll be curious to see how the body holds up eating this way.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 06 June, 2018, 11:33:52 am
I have essentially moved to a 16:8 but perhaps bit more 20:4.  I essentially try to eat one meal a day although if I have done a long ride i will treat myself to some bacon.  i allow myself two large skinny cappuccinos per day and low sugar diluting juice ad libitum.

I am aware that i eat when tired mentally or depressed. So this week which was planned for months as a productive video week has turned into a nightmare week and has a real possibility of eating too much so i am being very careful and self reassuring.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: sojournermike on 09 June, 2018, 07:36:12 am
I have a fairly strong feeling, I.e. I’ve not researched literature on it, that a properly functioning human shouldn’t need to eat little and often, but should be capable of eating pretty flexibly. In a nod to the LCHF camp, I suspect that when people struggle to maintain mental or (normal) physical function without eating every couple of hour or more frequently, there is probably some disfunction in their ability to metabolize fat stores to meet base metabolic requirements. Possibly this is most common if encouraged by regular sugary snacks.

I suspect that fasting or regularly having a longer break from eating than is considered normal in our society may well help to reset/avoid this, although it quite possible that it wouldn’t arise in any case with a moderate diet being followed.

I was quite amused to see a public health message recently suggesting that we should eat 400 calories at breakfast and 600 at lunch and dinner. Presumably, this allows a couple of sugary snacks during the day, or just over half a cake in Barsucks, provided you drink your coffee black! There is a policy aim to reduce food (calorie) intake in the UK by 20% by 2024, in order to help address the obesity epidemic. Hopefully unsurprisingly, an Oxford study in 2015 reported reduced portion size was associated with lower weight!

There is also regular commentary to the effect that ‘the public’ are deceived into eating unhealthily. I struggle a bit with this, as it suggests that people don’t know. We have to take some responsibility, and it would be far fairer on all to reflect on the complex relationship of eating with wealth, stress, tiredness and the limbic system driving short term desire for highly calorific snacks that you would choose not to eat if given a half hour notice and didn’t have it stuck in front of you at every commercial opportunity.

Mike
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 09 June, 2018, 12:29:20 pm
The unhealthy choices I make during my online grocery shopping are HUGELY influenced by Special Offers for non-perishables.

I tend to let my/David's favourite CAKES and biscuits pass by until they are 'only a pound'...

(There again, the 70p kilogram bag of granulated sugar has been open a good six months and is still more than half-full...)
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: sojournermike on 09 June, 2018, 01:14:18 pm
The unhealthy choices I make during my online grocery shopping are HUGELY influenced by Special Offers for non-perishables.

I tend to let my/David's favourite CAKES and biscuits pass by until they are 'only a pound'...

(There again, the 70p kilogram bag of granulated sugar has been open a good six months and is still more than half-full...)

Possibly an advantage of online shopping - no immediate gratification
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 09 June, 2018, 01:45:22 pm
but I'm still buying - and eating - the naughties, albeit slowly.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: crowriver on 10 June, 2018, 10:04:50 am
It's only relatively recently that the majority of people in these islands had enough to eat. The last 60 years or so. For much of our history scarcity of food and widespread malnutrition were the norm.

The obesity epidemic is such a recent phenomenon that it is unsurprising we're struggling to cope with it. There is now an abundance of cheap but not very nutritious food, but I'm not convinced this is the root of the problem. I suspect decreased activity levels across the population due to changing patterns of employment is one big factor. Most people are no longer engaged in physically demanding occupations, but eat as though they were. Many people drive absolutely everywhere too, hardly walking let alone cycling. Also the rise of convenience food, eating on the go, and so on rather than cooking from scratch has to be a factor.

Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: py on 18 June, 2018, 09:51:08 am
I am aware that i eat when tired mentally or depressed. So this week which was planned for months as a productive video week has turned into a nightmare week and has a real possibility of eating too much so i am being very careful and self reassuring.

I've been trying to hone in on what my triggers are and those that you mention are the same for me. I've been slowly winning the war against them in terms of how they affect eating habits though.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 18 June, 2018, 12:45:40 pm
I am trying to sort out some more counselling so hopefully that will help in all areas.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Pedaldog. on 19 June, 2018, 12:34:29 am
I really, REALLY, need to lose a LOT of weight. Around 95lbs to get to a "Moderately Overweight" level. Looking at the intermittent fasting thing.
One worry/query is down to a Broken Pituitary gland giving me Diabetes Insipidus, as well as being type 2 Mellitus, I need to get through a fairly constant intake of liquid all day and night.
A lot of this is water, no sugar added cordials and the like. I do drink a lot of coffee, with Milk unless I stick to Espresso. Is the whole milk I use in coffee a Problem on "Fasting Days"? I'd probably use 3/4 of a pint, in total, through 24 hours.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 19 June, 2018, 01:19:09 am
Whole milk is 3-4% fat and around 5% sugar.

¾ pint will contain 300 kcal around 13g fat 17g sugar. This is neither HUGE nor insignificant. If your 'fasts' allow 600 kcal, that's half your allowance and you should include it in your 'budget'
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Pedaldog. on 19 June, 2018, 02:17:32 am
Thanks Helly'. Considering the amount of Carb's and Associated BAD that I binge on, every day, that's Not too bad. I'll try to cut down on the coffee with milk on the Important days. Every day, I ought to reduce the Coffee intake anyway.
Not certain what 'Rotation' to try yet. I think I'll try and use up, in smaller portions, the Bad stuff in cupboards/freezer/fridge and not give myself the temptation of "I can't afford to waste food, I'll just eat this HUGE dish of Pasta, with fried onions, grated cheese and Mayo' all mixed up to Neutron Density Stodge.
I have a bad, and colourful, reaction to Sea Food and Tea. I suppose a Fish Oil supplement would help, I get a minor, slightly unpleasant reaction but not enough to worry me. As for Hot Drinks... Any suggestions for Herb, or fruit, teas that are tasty and, even, helpful in Flushing bad out and helping promote  health? I like (Preferably micro-nuked) scrambled egg, that is, I believe, a good protein source. I'm not shy of eating dead animal so,maybe one day a week, some liver. Open to any and all Guidance, advice and suggestions on the whole subject. I'm not safe to cook much, memory problems= Fire, if I'm not involved all the time. £££ are in short supply as Bills seem to come in second place to cycling stuff, when "I'm not in charge of my own head", a fairly frequent situation.

"Your Mission, should you choose to accept it......." Etc.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: hellymedic on 19 June, 2018, 03:01:42 am
I don't think a HUGE plate of pasta is a good idea on any day, really. That's a HUGE glycaemic load for a diabetic.

Microwave cooking is both safe and economical. I do loads as I'm not safe at a stove but fuel use is minimal which would be good for your budget.Suggest stewed apple. Some carbs but not excessive:
Cut flesh off Bramley, with peel if you can take this. Put into dish, add 75ml water.
Zap for 5 minutes on full.
Mash with potato masher. Add 15g raisins, mix and store in fridge. Raisins will absorb excess moisture and sweeten apple. No added sugar needed.

Microwaved carrots are lovely; peel, slice, zap; that is all.
Frozen veg microwaves in a few minutes.

Frozen peas can be a good snack cold.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: py on 19 June, 2018, 04:06:08 pm
Changing my diet has been a gradual process over a number of years. I previously tried to do a straight cut over from not great food to healthy food and it just didn't work for me.

An example would be my breakfast. I used to eat Corn Flakes with sugar or Frosties with mile for breakfast. I swapped those cereals for weetabix with milk and sugar. Then I gradually dropped the sugar. Then I switched to porridge with milk and some fruit for sweetness. Now I've dropped the milk and make the porridge with water but still add fruit. That's probably a 2 year process for me as I knew from prior experience going from Frosties to water based porridge and fruit wouldn't work.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: py on 11 July, 2018, 10:51:46 am
Am back doing intermittent fasting after my 8 days of water fasting. Weight has stabilised at 100-101Kg after glycogen + water levels got back to normal so a net loss of 5-6Kg over those 8 days.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Fre3man on 17 July, 2018, 10:29:19 am
I tried intermittent fasting for a while, but ultimately it made me miserable (I just like eating I guess). Switched to a reduced calorie intake and took up a vegetarian diet, it's been about 3 months and I've dropped 24lbs.

With that said, I know people who have lost a ton of weight through fasting.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: crowriver on 27 July, 2018, 03:52:51 pm
I tried two days' water fasting while on holiday to get rid of some excess weight gained in restaurants and family meals. Despite 35 degrees celsius heat I managed fine on 3 litres approx. of water per day.

I will now try to do the water fasting for two days, one week per month, substituting for my usual 5:2 regime which I will continue for the other three weeks a month. Will see how it goes...
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: LEE on 29 July, 2018, 11:15:05 pm
Just back from 3 weeks eating and drinking my way around France.

All bets are off when I'm on holiday but I now use fasting to get my weight back under control.

I ate last Sunday then just water, black coffee or fruit tea on Monday, Tuesday and up to Wednesday dinner, when I had a big meal.  Thursday I ate once at 6pm then went on my club cycle ride for a couple of pints.  On Friday morning i had my weekly weigh in and I'd dropped 5Kg.  It's easy for me to shed weight like that initially but it will slow up.  I'll stick with zero meals Monday & Tuesday then try to stick with one meal a day Wed/Thu/Fri.

I'd expect to lose at least 1kg-2kg per week consistently doing that.

Once I get back to target weight I'll stick to the 1 meal a day routine which I find fairly easy and gives good results.  I have a few social evenings coming up, otherwise I'd really like to try a 7-14 water fast.

I almost never do breakfast any more.  I don't miss it and it totally undermines intermittent fasting.  Breakfast was a habit for me.  It turns out I'm not actually hungry in the morning, it was just something that Kellogs said i should be doing.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: giropaul on 01 August, 2018, 06:42:47 am
Sorry if I’ve failed to spot any reference to Dr Freeman and Team Sky further up.

Anyway, in his book “ The Line” Dr Freeman records training in the “ purple zone” - I.e. fasted. Apparently both Wiggins and Thomas are athletes who are able to maintain the regime well.

It’s a great book, with a proper scientific and medical basis. If you’re looking for a big expose of any dodgy practices, this isn’t the book for you. If you want to learn more about the optimum preparation of competitive cyclists, backed up with science, then it’s a great and useful read.
Title: Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
Post by: Hot Flatus on 01 August, 2018, 07:43:23 am
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