I thought I'd start this as a separate thread so those who are genuinely interested can post their views/hints/tips/links ..etc
Firstly a disclaimer: I'm in no way medically qualified to recommend any form of diet and you should consult your GP..etc..etc. You get the picture.
My experience of reduced-calorie dieting (Weight-watcher, Slimming World and other such regimes) is like 99% of everyone else's, 6 months of success followed by ending up where I started after a year....repeat cycle for 20 years.
I first became interested in Fasting after watching Micheal Moseley's BBC documentary where he used it to completely cure himself of Type-2 diabetes (he was in the early onset stages, even though he wasn't overweight). It was actually the beneficial side-effects that interested me more than weight-loss, obviously preventing diabetes is a huge benefit but also the Atophagy aspect (where fasting triggers a "clearout" of damaged/mutated proteins), enhanced brain function, growth hormone release..and so on.
Recently I discovered Dr Jason Fung videos. Jason Fung treats the morbidly Obese in his clinic, dealing with Type-2 diabetes sufferers as it relates to the Obese.
His research into the way Insulin affects diabetes AND fat regulation was eye-opening.
So, I'm not going to preach, I'm not qualified. Here are some links to videos, watch them, don't watch them, whatever. Your choice. I find the reasoning and research equally compelling. He explains why continual calorie reduction is almost certainly doomed to failure, with medical research to show why. He explains why Fasting is not doomed to failure in the same way.
The only observation I will make is that I get starving hungry, cold and lethargic on reduced calorie diets (and end up where I started a year later). I am none of these things when Fasting (actually the opposite, I feel alert, satiated and "normal", even after 3 days without any food (my current maximum)).
I should also point out that I am only 8 weeks into a Fasting regime/lifestyle.
Video 1 - A Summary by Jason Fung >>>> https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w (https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w) <<<<
Video 2 - A discussion with Jason Fung >>>> https://youtu.be/v9Aw0P7GjHE (https://youtu.be/v9Aw0P7GjHE) <<<<
Well, I'll be giving it a go starting next week hopefully.
Will start off with Tuesday 11pm to Thursday lunchtime in the first week and will add Thursday 11pm to Saturday 10.30am from the week after that.
basically just skipping breakfast
basically just skipping breakfast
I've skipped breakfast for the vast majority of the last 10 years. My waistline is evidence that you soon work out how to make up for it at other meals.
Anyway, I'm approaching 34h of fasting and I've found it pretty easy. Definitely looking forward to my lunch (which will be bang on 12pm, I'll be queueing outside the canteen at work!)
Only slightly tricky bits were preparing food for others (afternoon snack, tea and breakfast for my daughter). Was quite tempting to butter another slice of bread to stuff in my gob, but I knew that one would just lead to another. My brain is generally ok with this though from many years working in catering and preparing food for hundreds of others a night and not getting to eat any of it (at the time).
Worth noting that I really struggled the one time I went to Wattbike class in a Fasted state.
I know you should only look at weight trends over 2-3 weeks minimum and it's only been two days but blimey.
You'll shed fluids like crazy initially ("water follows the sugar")
In Iran, it was around 340g/day and a 12 hour transit time, which implies <1kg storage.
I really don't think folk who eat sensible amounts of fibre store HUGE amounts of stuff.
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.
Youtube is my only resource tbh. I like the ones by Dr Eric berg as well - https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos)
As for my regime I use a combination of 100% fasted days, just water, black coffee and herb tea, combined with eating as late as I can when I'm not fasting.
Typically I've settled into 100% on Monday then and evening meal on Tuesday (I have a heavy Wattbike session 06:30 on Wednesday). I'll eat a huge omelette on Wednesday breakfast, post Wattbike, then I'll have nothing until a beer or two on my Thursday evening club/pub ride.. I tend to skip breakfast totally now.
It's no problem at all now. Only eating causes me an issue because it makes me feel so hungry afterwards. Totally fasting from Sunday bedtime to Tuesday Dinnertime completely offsets any fun you had over the weekend.
BTW. My Wattbike power increased (i did a 20 minute FTP test a week ago) and my weight is down. I should be below 13st tomorrow. I was 14st 8lb in July, with less power.
My own non-scientific. self-based, research tells me that I gained muscle and/or efficiency whilst losing body mass. I'm wearing smaller sized clothes, I feel better, I look better and life feels generally better. What's not to like?
I think it's about choosing a regime that fits your life. It's a "for life" thing, not a diet. Diets have a target, an end-point. That's why I've failed for 20 years. When I reached my target I reverted to my old ways. My plan is to make this regime my new "old ways".
If fasting for multiple days is too tough then just try confining your calories to a short period, say 1pm - 5pm. That gives your body time to burn fat for 20 hours.
When I see cakes now I just see them as something that will completely shut down my body's ability to burn fat (lose weight) for the next few hours.
That thought alone pretty much stopped my snacking lifestyle.
How did fasting work out? Did Leptin raise it's ugly head?
What I didn't expect was the feeling of 'existing outside normal society', as occasional visits to the local supermarket to 'score' some lemons and maple syrup became forays into the belly of the socio-industrial-military complex (who needs all this stuff? why is all this energy being devoted to trying to sell it? am I the only one who can see whats going on? It was like being on the set of They Live (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJC4R1uXDaE))
Devotees of fasts describe it as helping them to become more spiritual and self focused... I have no doubt there is an effect.... whether its beneficial or not depends on the individal and their circumstance. It's not hard to see how it can exacerbate feelings of alienation, with everything that goes with it. Almost as bad as endurance sports...
all that citric acid and syrup is terrible for your teeth. In contrast Keto seems great for teeth (no sugar)
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.
Youtube is my only resource tbh. I like the ones by Dr Eric berg as well - https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos)
As for my regime I use a combination of 100% fasted days, just water, black coffee and herb tea, combined with eating as late as I can when I'm not fasting.
Typically I've settled into 100% on Monday then and evening meal on Tuesday (I have a heavy Wattbike session 06:30 on Wednesday). I'll eat a huge omelette on Wednesday breakfast, post Wattbike, then I'll have nothing until a beer or two on my Thursday evening club/pub ride.. I tend to skip breakfast totally now.
It's no problem at all now. Only eating causes me an issue because it makes me feel so hungry afterwards. Totally fasting from Sunday bedtime to Tuesday Dinnertime completely offsets any fun you had over the weekend.
BTW. My Wattbike power increased (i did a 20 minute FTP test a week ago) and my weight is down. I should be below 13st tomorrow. I was 14st 8lb in July, with less power.
My own non-scientific. self-based, research tells me that I gained muscle and/or efficiency whilst losing body mass. I'm wearing smaller sized clothes, I feel better, I look better and life feels generally better. What's not to like?
I think it's about choosing a regime that fits your life. It's a "for life" thing, not a diet. Diets have a target, an end-point. That's why I've failed for 20 years. When I reached my target I reverted to my old ways. My plan is to make this regime my new "old ways".
If fasting for multiple days is too tough then just try confining your calories to a short period, say 1pm - 5pm. That gives your body time to burn fat for 20 hours.
When I see cakes now I just see them as something that will completely shut down my body's ability to burn fat (lose weight) for the next few hours.
That thought alone pretty much stopped my snacking lifestyle.
Am I to take it that most folk here are practicing "total" fasting (i.e. no food)?
Your only comment from LEE's post is about a mild stimulant usage?
Doesn't really apply to me though as I drink decaf, although there's still 10% of the caffeine of normal coffee the quantities of stimulants are negligible.Am I to take it that most folk here are practicing "total" fasting (i.e. no food)?
My 5:2 is more like 6:1, or probably closer to 11:3.
When I can it'll be total fasting. Just water and black (decaf) coffee for just over 36h (last calorific intake late evening - pub usually, fast whole next day, and then eating lunch).
If I do some significant exercise during the fast then I'll have my usual 500ml of chocolate milk as a makeshift protein recovery shake, that's only 350kcal though. This helps ward of sniffles after significant exercise (>1h swim, >2h cycle, >30m run).
LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health.
LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health.
LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health.
Citation please.
Your only comment from LEE's post is about a mild stimulant usage?
Doesn't really apply to me though as I drink decaf, although there's still 10% of the caffeine of normal coffee the quantities of stimulants are negligible.Am I to take it that most folk here are practicing "total" fasting (i.e. no food)?
My 5:2 is more like 6:1, or probably closer to 11:3.
When I can it'll be total fasting. Just water and black (decaf) coffee for just over 36h (last calorific intake late evening - pub usually, fast whole next day, and then eating lunch).
If I do some significant exercise during the fast then I'll have my usual 500ml of chocolate milk as a makeshift protein recovery shake, that's only 350kcal though. This helps ward of sniffles after significant exercise (>1h swim, >2h cycle, >30m run).
You'd need to define 'mild', how many cups of coffee per day?
And this goes the crux of issue, you need calories to sustain yourself as well as all the necessary vitamins and minerals. If Lee has no objections then he should post what he eats in a week and I'll put this into Cronometer. LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health. But then again people love hearing that their bad habits if done a certain way are okay to do.
My diet is very boring.
Generally no breakfast, possibly a hard boiled egg
I have home made soup or home made sauerkraut for lunch usually with a helping of fresh blueberries or raspberries. In the winter I tend to make a jelly with sugar free raspberry jelly whipped with frozen home grown raspberries and some cream
Dinner is either a small helping of prawns dry fried, a chicken breast or once a week we have a small steak. This is accompanied by either steamed cauliflower mash, courgettini or once a week celeriac chips or distillery. The chips are done with coconut oil.
My snacks tend to be slices of home dried fruit such as tangerines or cooking apples.
Is this healthy enough?
You'd need to define 'mild', how many cups of coffee per day?
And this goes the crux of issue, you need calories to sustain yourself as well as all the necessary vitamins and minerals. If Lee has no objections then he should post what he eats in a week and I'll put this into Cronometer. LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health. But then again people love hearing that their bad habits if done a certain way are okay to do.
You'd need to define 'mild', how many cups of coffee per day?
For me it's probably 50mg of caffeine per day (usually 5 cups of decaf). Various google searches suggest up to 400mg of caffeine per day is 'safe' and not considered excessive.
What's your definition of 'too much'?And this goes the crux of issue, you need calories to sustain yourself as well as all the necessary vitamins and minerals. If Lee has no objections then he should post what he eats in a week and I'll put this into Cronometer. LCHF diets (however marketed) have been shown over time to be non sustainable and detrimental to your health. But then again people love hearing that their bad habits if done a certain way are okay to do.
I'm not sure what part your arguing about as you've touched on about 5 different issues in those few sentences.
Calories are required to sustain yourself, so if you want to lose weight then you need to restrict calorific intake, expend more (do more exercise) or otherwise change calorific intake so that it is in deficit based on BMR and exercise.
LCHF is a form of calorie restriction but isn't combined with fasting. The specific 'thing' about fasting (compared to just changing what you eat) is how it avoids the insulin spikes that hinder fat metabolism.
The majority of people moving off a LCHF regimen after losing weight will tend to slowly put it back on over time as they return to their previous calorific intake (but due to their weight loss their BMR is now lower than before, so eating what they used to eat slowly returns them to that original weight).
Those who've fasted regularly find it much easier to (subconsciously) reset their calorific intake based on their new BMR, so they are more likely to keep the weight off.
Appropriately chosen foods, even if eaten as part of a restricted calorie regimen, will still provide the necessary vitamins and minerals. I don't think of calorie deficits at the daily level any more, it's more of a weekly balance check, since fasting days have 0-350kcal intake and the day when the fast ends I may eat more than a 'normal' day. The point is that over time I'm running a accumulating deficit.
I agree that perpetual calorific deficit is not sustainable, but that's not what happens. When I'm lighter I tend to do a lot more exercise (increased marathon training, more cycling, etc) and more intensive. My calorific intake may increase but this in response to the increase demands from exercise. I can still fast regularly and not run a deficit. The body does not fall apart if it receives it's 7 days worth of calories in 5 days with 2 days fasting along the way, the concept of having to eat a certain amount per solar day is an entirely artificial construction.
My diet is very boring.
Generally no breakfast, possibly a hard boiled egg
I have home made soup or home made sauerkraut for lunch usually with a helping of fresh blueberries or raspberries. In the winter I tend to make a jelly with sugar free raspberry jelly whipped with frozen home grown raspberries and some cream
Dinner is either a small helping of prawns dry fried, a chicken breast or once a week we have a small steak. This is accompanied by either steamed cauliflower mash, courgettini or once a week celeriac chips or distillery. The chips are done with coconut oil.
My snacks tend to be slices of home dried fruit such as tangerines or cooking apples.
Is this healthy enough?
150 Calories is a VERY big banana!
NSFW is elsewhere on yacf...
I don't believe you need to reduce your calorie intake to lose weight
- you need to look at what calories you are taking on. A banana will give me on average around 150 calories, I could also get 150 calories from around 17 grams of butter. What would you have out of the two and why?
You need a better understanding of insulin and what it does to the body, losing weight (and the onset of type II diabetes) is not about insulin spikes - it's about insulin sensitivity. Mashed potato on it's own, or mashed potato with a tuna steak, which do you think will lead to a higher level of insulin in the blood?
And if you eat the appropriate foods (plant based) you won't need to calorie restrict to lose weight, you certainly won't need to starve yourself but not eating for x amount of days.
I don't believe you need to reduce your calorie intake to lose weight
Nor do I. What've I said pretty consistently is that you need to modify your calorific intake to ensure you are running a deficit (once you take into account intake and expenditure [from both exercise and BMR]) in order to lose weight. There are many possibilities to this on a sliding scale:-
a) Do the same exercise and eat less than you were eating before
b) Eat the same as before but do more exercise
c) Eat more than before but do even more exercise
etc.- you need to look at what calories you are taking on. A banana will give me on average around 150 calories, I could also get 150 calories from around 17 grams of butter. What would you have out of the two and why?
Choosing between a banana and butter for 150kcal is an entirely false dichotomy, whatever your calorific intake it should be a balance of fats, protein, carbs, etc all of the various different types in appropriate proportions.You need a better understanding of insulin and what it does to the body, losing weight (and the onset of type II diabetes) is not about insulin spikes - it's about insulin sensitivity. Mashed potato on it's own, or mashed potato with a tuna steak, which do you think will lead to a higher level of insulin in the blood?
I'm sure we all need a better understanding, but following the videos of certain doctors have been useful. I'm not sure of the point of your specific question. Fasting is concerned with the longer term insulin response, not the specific response to individual meals.And if you eat the appropriate foods (plant based) you won't need to calorie restrict to lose weight, you certainly won't need to starve yourself but not eating for x amount of days.
Again you misrepresent how most people approach fasting.
The concept of having to eat x calories per 24 hours is an entirely artificial construct. The human body does not fall apart if you don't eat for 24 hours or if you shift some of those calories around to previous/later days.
Instead, consider ensuring you eat 7x calories over 168 hours (7 days).
Lets assume someone is eating 2500kcal per day and maintaining their weight (so this is balanced with the exercise they do) and wants to lose 1lb a week. 1lb of fat is roughly 3500 kcal so that's the target deficit per week.
Current: 2500 * 7 = 17500 kcal/week
New Target: 17500 - 3500 = 14000 kcal/week
They can either target 14000/7 = 2000 kcal/day or opt for a 5:2 fasting model such as:-
(14000-1000)/5 = 2600 kcal/day for 5 days, plus two days at 500 kcal. (Which is a typical 5:2 style.) That still adds up to 14000kcal per week, so sustain this and if the average expenditure really is 2500kcal per day then it will lead to weight loss (if they keep up the exercise they were doing before, etc).
None of this emotive 'starving yourself' stuff, just two days of really cutting back that, as you'll find here, the people who do this have no problem with.
Me on the other hand, I'll stick to a plant based diet rich in vits, minerals and fibre, plant based fats which keep me fuller for longer and as these are largely unsaturated so any fat not absorbed passes through the body. Average calorie intake is around 2800 per day and I still lose weight. Go figure, after all, more calories out over more calories in means you lose weight? :facepalm:
''...so if you want to lose weight then you need to restrict calorific intake..''
Just quoting what you said GB, don't be moving the goalposts.
Choosing between a banana and some butter is not a false dichotomy, it highlights that if you opt for a diet that is largely based around fat - in particular animal fat then this is calorie dense and in some cases 'empty' calories where as a plant based diet is rich in dietary fibre which keeps you fuller for longer, this applying to both carbs and plant based fat such as nuts, seeds and fruits i.e. Avacado's
And again with the insulin response, it's about insulin sensitivity. :facepalm:
And you can call it what you want but any sort of calorie restrictive diet is only allows about 350-500 calories even for two days is starving yourself.
Carry on with a fad diet, eating animal protein that lowers your insulin sensitivity thus driving up insulin levels which forces you to starve yourself for two days of the week in order to lose weight - sounds like fun.
Me on the other hand, I'll stick to a plant based diet rich in vits, minerals and fibre, plant based fats which keep me fuller for longer and as these are largely unsaturated so any fat not absorbed passes through the body.
Average calorie intake is around 2800 per day and I still lose weight. Go figure, after all, more calories out over more calories in means you lose weight? :facepalm:
Me on the other hand, I'll stick to a plant based diet rich in vits, minerals and fibre, plant based fats which keep me fuller for longer and as these are largely unsaturated so any fat not absorbed passes through the body. Average calorie intake is around 2800 per day and I still lose weight. Go figure, after all, more calories out over more calories in means you lose weight? :facepalm:
I really don't think this occurs if you have a normal digestive system!
I don't fast.
I sometimes forget to eat, and often forgo breakfast.
I've given the 5:2 fasting model a bash a few times, but find that the hunger pangs are so potent, particularly at the start of day 2 of the fast, that I end up over eating whenever I try it.
The unhealthy choices I make during my online grocery shopping are HUGELY influenced by Special Offers for non-perishables.
I tend to let my/David's favourite CAKES and biscuits pass by until they are 'only a pound'...
(There again, the 70p kilogram bag of granulated sugar has been open a good six months and is still more than half-full...)
I am aware that i eat when tired mentally or depressed. So this week which was planned for months as a productive video week has turned into a nightmare week and has a real possibility of eating too much so i am being very careful and self reassuring.