GPS purchasing advice please

[nuttycyclist]

AArrrrrggghhhh,,,, yes, it's "another" of "those threads"

Should I wish to be purchasing a hand held/bike mounted GPS unit, what should I go for?

The Pre-requisites.

 - I have Memory Map - so don't want to pay out for Garmin's Mapsource.

 - Want to use the unit as a general navigator for walking/cycle touring/sailing(?) and as a backup for driving if the GPS in the car fails/is already in use in the other vehicle.  Therefore need very long battery life.

 - Don't need all the fancy geeky gadgets of the Edge 705/etc units.  I'm not interested in "training workouts".

 - I'm not overly interested in the ability to save tracklogs to the PC for posterity.  But will probably want to be planning routes on the PC in Memory Map, then transfer to the GPS.

 - I have a gift voucher for a shop which only seems to stock Garmin.

[Sergeant Pluck]

I feel your pain.

I have been watching developments on this forum and elsewhere regarding the Colorado and the 605 / 705.

To cut a long story short, and note that I am not a techy person, my opinion is that both these devices are in need of something more substantial than software updates to make them reliable. I could be wrong about the Colorado / 705 issues, and I know that a lot of the problems are being worked out, but I think these devices both need some kind of hardware change to get them working really well. And when they do work, they'll be damn good. But I think this could be a year down the line.

Like you, the training data angle does not interest me all that much.

So, I went for slightly older technology (Vista HCx) and while I am just beginning to work it out, I know I'll get the hang of it, and it is generally a reliable device with excellent battery life - I think the versatility offered by using AAs is a big plus.

I have only just got the Mapsource so cannot really comment, other than to say all the appropriate bits talk to each other and it is no more fiddly and, frankly, slightly crap than any other software I have tried (Memory Map, CoPilot).

I have only had the Etrex since this morning (I have not owned anything similar before) and within a few minutes of installing the software I was able to transfer a pre-existing route from MM to the Etrex without any problems. I also have a fair few bob in Memory Map stuff and I want to be able to use it.

So I'd recommend the Vista HCx, and I know I'm biased but I thought dithered about this for quite some time. Available at well under £150 it is a good deal for something that has not really been out all that long. Recent by my standards!

Bike mounts are fine with small pieces of high density foam to eliminate rattles - I have one mount direct to my MTB bars and another to my oversize road bars via an Acor bar extender which positions it nice and neatly just in front of the stem.

Re the sailing, I am not sure if the HCx can match sailing-specific models but it is waterproof. It does not float though.

Another point: I think an HCx in good order could be sold for a fair proportion of its purchase price in a year or so when the issues with the new models are resolves.

[nuttycyclist]

What about on screen mapping with the Vista?  Does it just come with the base map, and can you upload the Memory Map maps to it?

I used an etrex Legend some while back, with mapsource, but that was a real pain as there was no difference between roads and rivers (other than I couldn't ride down the river on the motorbike) and I also kept having to change the maps loaded depending on where I was riding.  At half an hour a time it was just a pain in the butt.

I really want to have some decent mapping images on the unit - preferably of Ordnance Survey style.

[Sergeant Pluck]

No, you cannot view the MM maps on the Vista. You can plan routes on MM and decipher your tracks, but you cannot use those maps on the device it seems. So my plan, or one of them, is to plan my routes on my MM and to use the waypoints on the Mapsource software on the device.

Yes it comes with a basemap but it is best described thus: crap.

If you require OS style contours I believe it is possible to obtain free overlays to view over the maps on the device which will add contours.

Hopefully someone that knows more than I will come along shortly...

[Sergeant Pluck]

I also kept having to change the maps loaded depending on where I was riding.  At half an hour a time it was just a pain in the butt.

Is this because that GPS had no expandable memory? As far as I can see I can have virtually all of Europe on the one card, so no changing required.

[cc93]

In short, if you want a pretty (OS) map display and routing ability, tough.

Garmin is the obvious choice, and they now take a memory card so storage of large mapping areas is no longer an issue.

The software isn't pretty, though it does work fairly well (given practise)

So Etrex Legend (or Vista) HCx with Metroguide Europe & the Metrogold hack (or Topo maps)
Overlay with the SMC contours if you must (I think it clutters the display without any real benefit)

With oversize handlebar bracket and loads of gel tape underneath to reduce vibration & shock (which causes units to turn off randomly)

[Sergeant Pluck]

With oversize handlebar bracket and loads of gel tape underneath to reduce vibration & shock (which causes units to turn off randomly)

Wish I had recalled that info before ordering two normal brackets... still the Acor bar extender does isolate the vibrations a little. I understand that packing out the battery compartment helps - although the batteries feel extremely tight in mine.

Yes the Metrogold hack only costs $6 and works easily and perfectly.

[RichForrest]

Someone on here I believe posted this link to another forum about GPS
Pocket GPS World
It has a lot of info on it.

I've got MM on my MDA smartphone, it is ideal for when walking but as the screen does not scroll along as the cursor moves the map page you are on will stay the same and your position will move off the screen.
While walking it is easy to touch the screen and move the map.
Not sure about others GPS devices but I also have a very basic one that just does tracks and waypoints (no maps on it) I can do the maps on MM and just send the data over in hardly any time at all.

Rich.

[hazeii]

eTrex with Memory Map is my preferred solution; plot a route and download it to the eTrex, after the ride upload the track to see where you went wrong! Bottom-end eTrex are now nice and cheap too - an advantage for MTBing. Works fine for walking and motorbiking too.

Although the eTrex is prone to turning itself off on big hits, one nice solution for long distance work is to use an external power cable with a couple of C or D cells - fixes the issue, plus much less frequent battery changes to boot.

[Oscar's dad]

Nutty, I have just bought a Garmin eTrex Vista HCx and am running Mapsource City Navigator NT 2008.  I will start a separate thread on my experiences but suffice to say" so far, so good"

I bought the GPS whilst in the States recently.  I purchased on US eBay from http://stores.ebay.com/Wackys-Deals.  Wackydeals is part of the Wacky Rubbers empire who do a nice line in novelty condoms!  The unit cost £129 including shipping to my US hotel.  The mapping software cost about £90 shipped to the UK.  I would recommend dealing with Wacky Deals.

[andym]

I have been watching developments on this forum and elsewhere regarding the Colorado and the 605 / 705.

To cut a long story short, and note that I am not a techy person, my opinion is that both these devices are in need of something more substantial than software updates to make them reliable.

From a number of Geocachers that I've spoken too, the beta firmware seems to make the Colorado a very impressive piece of kit with few showstopper bugs.  Need to download and install that version manually, and not via the updater.
I had a play with one, and the accuracy was far better than my (very old) etrex, and seemed totally bug free (although there's a website with lots of user functionality recommendations, many of which have been fixed).
For Geocaching, I doubt any other product can beat it.
For everything else... it's pricy (UK is cheapest price in EU)

Edge 605/705 - do they have in built battery like the 205/305?  If so, then totally useless when they battery goes flat and/or dies with age.  Colorado and eTrex that take a pair of AA's is big positive imho.

So for me, it's either eTrex Vista HCx (virtually end-of-life product) or 60CSx (also probably towards end of a relatively short life), or Colorado (new, buggy but being fixed, and probably with a new model before xmas).

I don't care for memory map or anything else paid for, but could play with OSM (which has many bike paths on it in this area).

[PaulF]

Was about to post the same question, but I also need something that is Mac compatible without too much fiddling.

[cc93]

With oversize handlebar bracket and loads of gel tape underneath to reduce vibration & shock (which causes units to turn off randomly)

Wish I had recalled that info before ordering two normal brackets... still the Acor bar extender does isolate the vibrations a little.

I have standard size brackets and have successfully cured the turn-off terror by throwing away the clamp screw and fastening the mount over the gel-tape layers using 2 small tie-wraps linked together (longer tie-wraps are too wide to fit through the holes)

Looks a bit Heath Robinson but no turn-offs so far 

Edge 605/705 - do they have in built battery like the 205/305?  If so, then totally useless when they battery goes flat and/or dies with age.  Colorado and eTrex that take a pair of AA's is big positive imho.

Not really - you can power it through the USB port using an external battery pack.

I used to do this anyway on my first Legend C to get over the bump turn-off problem (before I discovered the above)

[Mo]

I have been following this thread and to revert to Nutty's original question (and having done a little research elsewhere) is the following a suitable solution to his needs.

Bearing in mind his limitation to Garmin due to the (unquantified) gift voucher -

Garmin Legend HCX unit plus Topo Great Britain map software.

If I am correct, and please feel free to put me straight, this map is Garmin's next best thing to proper OS maps, and can have routes planned and plotted then downloaded to the unit via SD card.  Manual or autorouting is available.

Does anyone have experience of this combination, or have I totally misunderstood the capabilities of the unit/software combination?

[andrew_s]

I reckon that you are better off with Metroguide/City Navigator than with TopoGB for road bike riding.

TopoGB is the same road data and road navigation capabilities, but with added contours, streams, (some) footpaths and areas of woodland added from OS data.
With TopoGB the extra detail of the contours means that minor roads (ie everything other than M/A/B) turn themselves off when the scalebar is bigger than 300m (vs 1.2km for CN). If it's a hilly area, they can make the roads hard to distinuish from the contours, and minor streams and roadside drainage ditches can obscure adjacent roads. I'd only recommend it if you think that there's a reasonable chance that you will use the GPS offroad. Note that Metroguide/CN get you the whole of Europe, so is to be preferred if you want to use it on holiday.

Proper OS maps (like Memory Map) are effectively just scans of the paper maps, so roads are just red/brown/yellow/white pixels, and can't be used for navigation. There are also OS copyright restrictions that stop the data being shared between different vendors, so Memory Map OS maps can only be used with Memory Map software - ie on various PDAs, with all their problems with lack of robustness, battery life and screens not designed for outdoor use.

Was I buying now, I'd probably get Legend HCx (or Vista HCx), Metroguide Europe, & Metrogold.

[Oscar's dad]

I have not used Mapsource Topo but would agree with Andrew S that a Vista HCx with City Navigator NT is the way to go for road biking. 

I am just getting used to my set up but it is a hell of a lot easier than I thought.

[Greenbank]

As a counterpoint I'd like to say that mapping functionality isn't necessary if you're mainly going to be riding planned routes.

I don't have any mapping on my bog standard yellow eTrex (cost: £70, plus another £30 for bike mount and data cable). No software or map purchase required as I create all of my routes on bikely.com and upload them to the GPS using free software (GPS Trackmaker or gpsbabel on the Mac).

The only time I've used my GPS and would have benefited from mapping was when I encountered a road blocked by a fallen tree in Chertsey on the ride down to Cornwall Honiton and the Police wouldn't let me go past their blockade. Even then it wasn't tricky to do a little 2 mile detour around the problem as I could still see where I was supposed to be and take the appropriate turnings at junctions.

But then I've only used the GPS for recording rides for training purposes¹ or for pre-programmed rides/Audaxes.

1. I don't have HR logging though, but this is going to be solved with the purchase of a Forerunner 405 which I'll use whilst running or cycling to record location/elevation/hr info at a high granularity.

[harvey]

I've gone for the 60csx to use for the bike and car.  Some say it's too big for the bike but I like the larger display and it only weighs 42 gms more than the Vista.  A really secure mounting system and no problems with it shutting off from excessive vibrating or failing to receive a signal.  City Navigator maps are excellent and I like viewing the roads and other features while on my rides. 

[PaulF]

As a counterpoint I'd like to say that mapping functionality isn't necessary if you're mainly going to be riding planned routes.

This is a very basic question but how does it give directions? Is it a left/right arrow with a countdown?

[Greenbank]

As a counterpoint I'd like to say that mapping functionality isn't necessary if you're mainly going to be riding planned routes.

This is a very basic question but how does it give directions? Is it a left/right arrow with a countdown?

You create a route (<rte> in gpx terminology), with a set of routepoints (<rtept> in the gpx), with one routepoint per instruction and you name the routepoint with the appropriate instruction (with a number at the beginning to make sure it's unique, bearing in mind you only get 6 characters to play with).

(Routepoints are separate from waypoints or trackpoints, and the 500 waypoint limit doesn't apply because they aren't fully fledged waypoints. AFICT the limit is 122 routepoints per route, and 20 routes maximum, giving 2440 routepoints. Easily enough for even the longest rides).

Here's the route I created for my London to Cornwall ride:-

Bicycle Path - L2C at Bikely.com

237 points in total, and if you click on an individual point you'll see the appropriate name:-

So point 2 is on the South Circular and tells me to go SO (Straight On). Not strictly necessary but it's useful to have a few that say "SO" just to let you know you're on the right road.

Point 5 tells me to "BL" or "Bear Left" which I use where it isn't really a turn off the road, but where you're faced with a choice. Other instructions can be "FL" for Fork Left; En means exit n of a roundabout. Others like "RiL" can mean "Right then Immediately Left" for a staggered crossroads.

The navigation page points you in the direction of the next routepoint and tells you how far away it is, as you approach it (i.e. get within 50m or so) the arrow will swing to point towards the next routepoint, thus showing you which way to go on top of showing you the routepoint name of "123 L" which tells you what to do. Once you've done that direction it then tells you the name of the next routepoint, how far away it is, and which direction it is, etc.

Once you get used to it it is very easy to follow. The above link is a 430km ride in just 237 routepoints and includes a journey out of SW London. Without any of the "SO" directions (i.e. straight on is implied) it would be about 150 points.

[Sergeant Pluck]

You create a route (<rte> in gpx terminology), with a set of routepoints (<rtept> in the gpx), with one routepoint per instruction and you name the routepoint with the appropriate instruction.

Thanks for that Greenbank. How exactly do you create your routepoints, or do you do this manually within the file? Is this done on Bikely?

[Greenbank]

Thanks for that Greenbank. How exactly do you create your routepoints, or do you do this manually within the file? Is this done on Bikely?

The GPX download on bikely has changed a few times recently, and requires a bit of fiddling to get it into the right format as last time I tried it, it downloaded as a track of trackpoints. A bit of search and replace was required to fiddle it to a route.

I'm sure gpsbabel can do it, but I do it manually in a text editor/scripts.

[PaulF]

You create a route (<rte> in gpx terminology), with a set of routepoints (<rtept> in the gpx), don. Without any of the "SO" directions

Thanks also

[Greenbank]

Sorry, I should say that you have to name the route points manually in bikely.com.

As long as you have the "Auto follow roads" option off you only get one point per mouse click. After you've clicked the mouse to place the point the text cursor should be in the right text box ("Now In") to give it the appropriate name, i.e. "23 L".

[sletti]

After reading this thread I seem none the wiser, so I'll wade in with a question.

Which manufacturers will allow you to upload a gpx file from the computer (probably generated on Map My Ride website)? Navigation is not so important to me but I do need to be able to follow a per prepared route (and normal functions like speed, mileage, etc)

thanks

Stig