Home Energy Smart Meters

[robgul]

The conspiracy theory is that smart meters are being put in to enable surge pricing, which will allow the suppliers and generators to better match revenue to costs (they have to pay a lot more for energy at certain times, but it's all flat rate to domestic users).  This means it might cost you a quid to boil a kettle at some times of day, when everyone wants to do it.

The converse is that the BG guy said that there would "reward offers" for things like a day's free energy - i.e. use whatever you like and the meter will record it but make a deduction on the bill for the value used that day.   

Given that our whole energy biill, with the standing charges, is only about £3 a day you'd need to have some massive piece of kit using electricity and heat the house with gas to 100 degrees all day to get any sort of worthwhile reward.

Rob

[Cudzoziemiec]

The main objection to smart meters (other than them being badly implemented) seems to be that they allow your electricity company to cut your electricity off.  As if they couldn't do that already.

Well they can, but as things are lots of others would be cut off too - every third house in our case. Individual smart meters = individual disconnections.

They already have a legal right to enter your property, escorted by a police ossifer and a locksmith as necessary, in order to perform individual disconnections.  The smart meter just means you don't need a new front door.

We need a new front door anyway. Unfortunately our (non-smart) meter is in a box in the porch, so even if we stopped paying the bill we probably wouldn't get a new door.

[Wombat]

Ah, that's interesting, Wombat.  I've been trying to get SSE to fit a smart meter for ages but was told they couldn't because of my PV FIT set-up.  From what you say they are now able to do this.  Let me know how it goes.

I will! 

[Wombat]

When I was a PSO, our quantum gas meter had a bat flattery, and we had to invoke a gas man to come and replace it.  This was complicated by us naughtily not having a gas (or electricity) supplier, after previously nobbling a fraudulent attempt to sign us up as customers by the infamous London Electricity cold-callers.  We'd been happily taking the card/key to the local newsagent to add credit, and the meters had been dispensing overpriced energy, but apparently our supply existed in a superposed state and attempting to get the meter replaced collapsed its wave-function.  Presumably this is why they call them quantum meters.

Aargh, quantum meters!  The bloody things are a nightmare for social housing providers, for the very reason you outline, namely, folk who either don't actually have a supplier, or those who do, but then we can't find out who it was, when they bugger off.  Yes I know in theory we can find out who their supplier is, but they would often refuse to tell us, so we just had to rip out the meter, and then tell them there was no meter...

[Wombat]

I'm puzzled by the folk who are anti-smart meter. 

I don't have one, and don't currently want one: unless I'm given a SMETS2, it doesn't work if I change supplier.  What idiot allowed the suppliers to install meters that can't be used by any supplier.  Big lack of application of brain by someone in Govt/Regulation which we, the consumer, are paying for.

I already have a monitor on the wall for my electricity - so I soon know if our consumption is not what I'd expect given the time of day.

I pay by quarterly DD, based upon my previous consumption, and I almost always send in my quarterly meter readings and doing that allows me a quick check to see if our consumption for the quarter is what I'd expect.  Occasionally they'll owe me something, or I owe them something.  It balances out.

Agreed, a Smart meter would obviate the need for me to spend 10 minutes 4 times a year reading the meters.  And, yes, a Smart meter would also show me the gas consumption - but it's only used for CH/HW and that consumption doesn't vary much - it doesn't get 'left on' like a fan heater or hob ring can, which drink electricity.

And  finally, in our corner of our rural village, only one mobile provider seems to work - when I worked from home, my work mobiles only worked if I went to the upstairs front of the house.  The meter cupboard is downstairs, around the back.  I'd be surprised if it gets a signal.  Inevitably, they'll use a provider that can't 'see 'my Smart meter's modem, so I'll still have to email my meter readings.

When the idiots who specified the Smart meter system get their act together, and install meters that do what they should do, then I'll have one.  Until then I'll help out all of the UK's energy consumers by saving them the cost of installing a semi-useless bit of technology in my house.

And breathe.

I thank you all.

The idiots in question, are the Energy Retail Association, and the Government.  I went to a meeting where they were planning the standards, in about 2008, and they've been farting about with it ever since.  They seemed to be a bunch of bumbling reactionary old farts, even then.  As for a monitor on the wall, lucky you.  You evidently don't have microgeneration, or don't mind having a monitor that will only tell you half the story.  It defeats me that such a thing seems to be beyond the manufacturers of such things.  We shall see what sort of monitor thingy I get with my smart meter, assuming it actually happens on Tuesday.

[Kim]

My smart meter is monitored by an Arduino counting the flashes of the blinkenlight on the front panel via phototransistor and blu-tac technology.  Because the supplied energy monitoring widget is, frankly, a waste of electrons^[1].


_{[1] It always reverts to a display of the running total for the billing period, which I'm sure is helpful if you're penny-pinching, but mostly useless if you're trying to keep an eye on rogue energy consumption.  The previous effort supplied by nPower was better, as it gave you an instantaneous power reading.  Of course, without a time-series graph of decent resolution, it's hard to spot unexpected loads without going around switching things on and off.}

[BrianI]

Ive had a couple of letters from Eon requesting me to change to smart meters. However since I'm probably going to change suppliers once my current fixed rate deal ends, I'm not keen to get a smart meter fitted only for it to end up a dumb meter on a new supplier.

Anyway the stumbling block for a smart meter is that my electric meter is at the front of the house in the cupboard under the stairs, and the gas meter is external to the rear of the house.

Also the fuse box uses ye olde worlde cartridge fuses. I'd hate for the electrician to come and fit a smart meter only for a sharp intake of breath and charge me for a new mcb consumer unit and a complete rewire...

[Kim]

Anyway the stumbling block for a smart meter is that my electric meter is at the front of the house in the cupboard under the stairs, and the gas meter is external to the rear of the house.

Zigbee can probably cope with that.  That's why they use it for the comms between the meters.

Also the fuse box uses ye olde worlde cartridge fuses. I'd hate for the electrician to come and fit a smart meter only for a sharp intake of breath and charge me for a new mcb consumer unit and a complete rewire...

Not sure if the supplier cares, unless it's actually unsafe.  You'd have to get your own electrician to replace the CU anyway.

[Greenbank]

Anyway the stumbling block for a smart meter is that my electric meter is at the front of the house in the cupboard under the stairs, and the gas meter is external to the rear of the house.

Zigbee can probably cope with that.  That's why they use it for the comms between the meters.

One wall and one floor in between the meters (probably 10m in total) and they can't talk to each other.

Also the fuse box uses ye olde worlde cartridge fuses. I'd hate for the electrician to come and fit a smart meter only for a sharp intake of breath and charge me for a new mcb consumer unit and a complete rewire...

Not sure if the supplier cares, unless it's actually unsafe.  You'd have to get your own electrician to replace the CU anyway.

When they replaced our gas meter they said we should get an earth bond added, and he said our consumer unit should be in a museum. His recommendation was to get an electrician to assess everything.

An ancient consumer unit isn't a de facto sign that you need a rewire but there's a high correlation between ancient consumer units and ancient wiring that can be unsafe (e.g. fabric, rubber or even lead insulated cables) or not enough circuits (modern electricity demands greatly exceed design decisions from years ago).

The electrician who assessed ours said that the wiring was modern stuff in reasonable condition and there was no urgent requirement to rewire on that front, but consider saving up for it and having it done with the associated redecoration work. Only 4 circuits for a 3 bed flat is a definite red flag, especially with a kitchen that contains many power hungry appliances (oven, microwave, toaster, kettle, washing machine, dishwasher, fridge freezer) all effectively on one circuit.

[rafletcher]

Also the fuse box uses ye olde worlde cartridge fuses. I'd hate for the electrician to come and fit a smart meter only for a sharp intake of breath and charge me for a new mcb consumer unit and a complete rewire...

Not sure if the supplier cares, unless it's actually unsafe.  You'd have to get your own electrician to replace the CU anyway.

Or you can do what I did, and buy MCB "cartridges" that slot into the old CU.

[ian]

The conspiracy theory is that smart meters are being put in to enable surge pricing, which will allow the suppliers and generators to better match revenue to costs (they have to pay a lot more for energy at certain times, but it's all flat rate to domestic users).  This means it might cost you a quid to boil a kettle at some times of day, when everyone wants to do it.

Which seems like an eminently sensible thing to do, if we want to encourage people to use the cheap clean electricity, rather than the expensive fossil-fuel-based stuff.

Yes, but that might cause people the terrible inconvenience of not doing whatever they want whenever they want to do it.

I'd actually like one, but BG can't guarantee it'll be the newer version.

[grams]

Or you can do what I did, and buy MCB "cartridges" that slot into the old CU.

That does nothing to improve the safety of your installation though. If your fuses are tripping often enough that the convenience of MCBs is worth it, something else is wrong...

The main thing to be concerned about it older installations is the lack of an RCD, which is what protects you from being electrocuted. The olde worlde earth circuit breakers don't really do that.

The electrician who assessed ours said that the wiring was modern stuff in reasonable condition and there was no urgent requirement to rewire on that front, but consider saving up for it and having it done with the associated redecoration work. Only 4 circuits for a 3 bed flat is a definite red flag, especially with a kitchen that contains many power hungry appliances (oven, microwave, toaster, kettle, washing machine, dishwasher, fridge freezer) all effectively on one circuit.

The main reason to have lots of separate circuits is so that one thing tripping doesn't take out everything else - i.e. convenience, not safety. If the cables are sensibly sized and the fuses/MCBs are correct then it's not clear what the problem is.

[rafletcher]

Or you can do what I did, and buy MCB "cartridges" that slot into the old CU.

That does nothing to improve the safety of your installation though. If your fuses are tripping often enough that the convenience of MCBs is worth it, something else is wrong...

The main thing to be concerned about it older installations is the lack of an RCD, which is what protects you from being electrocuted. The olde worlde earth circuit breakers don't really do that.

Agreed, but that wasn't why I did it, I just wanted rid of the cartridge fuses. And yes, an RCD would be good. We'll probably have a rewire soon - it's desperately needed. It's just such an upheaval to get it done - there's not a lot of maneuvering room in a two up, two down. Reminds me though, to get some quotes in the New Year.

[Jaded]

Pah! No engineer arrived yet so I start checking. There's an email that came in on Friday.

The email is headed "SX1-3 Dual Fuel Exchange - Legacy to Smart" So now I know what that means...
They tell me they tried to phone me on Friday - but they sent the email at 09:22

This appointment was a rearranged one as they cancelled the previous one without reason. I subsequently discovered that they had cancelled it because the found out I was on Economy 7 and the engineer didn't have any suitable meters in his van.

I am not not surprised that the Smart Meter deadline is at risk...

[Kim]

Or you can do what I did, and buy MCB "cartridges" that slot into the old CU.

That does nothing to improve the safety of your installation though. If your fuses are tripping often enough that the convenience of MCBs is worth it, something else is wrong...

They may trip a little faster, but yeah.  Main advantage is you don't get someone re-wiring them with the wrong rating fuse wire to get the lights working.

The main thing to be concerned about it older installations is the lack of an RCD, which is what protects you from being electrocuted. The olde worlde earth circuit breakers don't really do that.

Indeed.  MCBs/fuses are to prevent the wiring catching fire.  RCDs prevent electrocution, and are a very very good thing^[1].


_{[1] Except where nuisance tripping poses its own safety issue.  Plenty of CUs about where the lighting circuits aren't fed through the RCD (which I'm sceptical of, but it made sense in the 90s when low-voltage halogen lighitng was trendy).  AIUI the USAnian electrical codes prohibit the use of ELCBs (their version of RCDs) on circuits feeding refrigerators, because someone looked at the stats and decided that food poisoning was a much greater risk than electrocution by faulty fridges.
 SCIENCE!}

[rafletcher]

When I rewired a house some 30 years ago, I used a split load CU, with RCD+MCB protecting the ring mains / shower / cooker circuits, and only MCB on the lighting circuits, as was the norm then, although I had no LV halogens. It was just I didn't expect the risk from electrocution to be that great through the lighting. Plus a blown bulb didn't shut the whole house down, it just popped the relevant MCB.

[Kim]

When I rewired a house some 30 years ago, I used a split load CU, with RCD+MCB protecting the ring mains / shower / cooker circuits, and only MCB on the lighting circuits, as was the norm then, although I had no LV halogens. It was just I didn't expect the risk from electrocution to be that great through the lighting. Plus a blown bulb didn't shut the whole house down, it just popped the relevant MCB.

Indeed.  It made sense when tungsten lamps blew regularly and would often trip the RCD when they did so (LV halogens seemed to do it chronically).  These days that's much less of a problem.

I reckon RCBOs are the way to go: best of both worlds.  More expensive, of course.

[Wombat]

Ah, that's interesting, Wombat.  I've been trying to get SSE to fit a smart meter for ages but was told they couldn't because of my PV FIT set-up.  From what you say they are now able to do this.  Let me know how it goes.

I will!

You may not be surprised to hear that it did NOT happen!
Sentences involving the words "arse" and "elbow" or "Arse-couldn't find-both-hands with" spring to mind.  We got a letter confirming our appointment, Mrs W waited in for them, as I was working down the railway, and they didn't show, so she called, and spoke to someone who said there was a system problem, and anyway, you can't have a smart meter with solar PV.  Mrs W insists on speaking to a manager, or someone who can find their arse with both hands.  They didn't have one, so he phones me this morning, and he plainly doesn't know a lot about such things, as he's just a call centre manager, not a smart metering person. After hearing my side of the story, he says he'll research and phone back, which he does.  He tells me there are still software issues regarding smart metering and export meters, which would affect my FIT payments. This is plainly bollocks as the FIT payments are based on what the export meter says, which is nothing to do with any consumption metering.  I had previously heard no suggestion that the smart meter interfaced with the export meter anyway, so was at a loss to see what that had to do with it.  He then told me they would give me £30 compensation for the missed appointment, which is handy as the central heating pump has died this morning, but I still have no clear idea whether I will get a smart meter before I die of old age.

I will therefore raise another complaint insisting that someone who is fully acquainted with the relationship between arses and elbows contacts me with the full truth, rather than some half truth based on a 2 minute conversation with someone in another call centre. Sadly all of the folk I used to deal with on energy or smart metering matters at SSE have conveniently been made redundant, or shifted into management rather than technical jobs.  Well, it beats baiting TV licensing, as a sport, I suppose...

[toontra]

You may not be surprised to hear that it did NOT happen!

Indeed - not surprised at all    My dealings with them have been equally shambolic.  Last time I rang I was on hold for 15 minutes while they tried to find someone who knew what they were talking about, then cut off.

The £30's do come in handy though - they missed 4 appointments in a row to read my FIT meter in August & I've just had the £120 payment, which equals my usual Nov-Feb generation 

Keep us updated with the next instalment.

[Canardly]

Came across this vid relating to smart meters. Gives some cause for pause and reflection?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYPwrbpAHbk

[Tim Hall]

Came across this vid relating to smart meters. Gives some cause for pause and reflection?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYPwrbpAHbk

It struck me as scaremongering nonsense.

[Greenbank]

Came across this vid relating to smart meters. Gives some cause for pause and reflection?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYPwrbpAHbk

It struck me as scaremongering nonsense.

Indeed. If I had time I'd pull it to pieces one ludicrous claim at a time.

Some parts do have some basis of legitimate concern[1], but they're embellished and overhyped in the video or just completely misunderstood.

1. My biggest concern is that the supplier is hacked and up to date minute-by-minute usage data is exposed, which could be used to detect people who are on holiday. But then most burglaries are opportunistic and not planned (the planned ones tend to be against people with lots of money).

[Kim]

1. My biggest concern is that the supplier is hacked and up to date minute-by-minute usage data is exposed, which could be used to detect people who are on holiday. But then most burglaries are opportunistic and not planned (the planned ones tend to be against people with lots of money).

Most people will tell you that they're on holiday using TwitFace anyway.

I suppose the real question is what's the most evil thing that one of the big data mining companies (Google, Facebook, etc) - or through them, the security services - could do if they had access to your electricity usage data.  They won't need to resort to cracking, you'll give them access to the data in exchange for dancing pigs, just like you did with your phone's location and the contact details of everyone you know.

TBH, I'm struggling to think of what electricity/gas consumption gives them that they don't already have from tracking a mobile phone.  Cooking and sleeping habits, maybe.

[drossall]

Our supplier has been chasing us for ages to have one, so I just tried to book to have it fitted. I was told it couldn't go in an outside box. We're in a Wimpey house on a massive Wimpey estate, for crying out loud. How could they not know that they wouldn't be able to fit them round here? Why waste all that time and money chasing?

[Kim]

Our supplier has been chasing us for ages to have one, so I just tried to book to have it fitted. I was told it couldn't go in an outside box. We're in a Wimpey house on a massive Wimpey estate, for crying out loud. How could they not know that they wouldn't be able to fit them round here? Why waste all that time and money chasing?

The nagging people to have smart meters people probably don't have access to that sort of information.  It may be outsourced.