Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 188768 times)


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #876 on: 21 November, 2017, 10:48:34 am »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-5101799/Team-Sky-British-Cycling-drug-storm-erupts-again.html

"In a BBC documentary, Shane Sutton, who coached Wiggins to Tour de France glory and until last year was technical director at British Cycling, defended Wiggins's use of TUEs. Asked if 'finding the gains might mean getting the TUE', Sutton said: 'Yes, because the rules allow you to do that.'

But on Monday Olympic star Katie Archibald and Paralympic gold medallist Jody Cundy expressed their angry disagreement with Sutton's comments. 'If that's the attitude people are taking to medical things, then it's a good job he's gone,' said Cundy.

Archibald described Sutton's comments as 'outrageous'. 'That's completely against the ethics of the sport,' she added. 'And attaching a term like "marginal gains" to that sort of practice is also quite distressing because it's almost a trademark British Cycling phrase, isn't it?'




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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #877 on: 21 November, 2017, 11:49:04 am »
I just caught the end of the BBC thing.  SD Brailsford's entire schtick in front of the select committee was "some big boys did it then ran away".  Not very convincing.
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #878 on: 21 November, 2017, 12:45:50 pm »
He basically says over and over "I don't know for sure, I have to rely on what I've been told by our doctor (and he's lost his laptop with his notes)".
It's such a contrast between the bombastic attitude of "We manage all the tiny little details which aggregate to a noticeable improvement - have you seen our super cool pillows?".

To me, they've always been just another bike team. With a giant pile of cash to throw around. Slipstream are much more credible IMO.

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #879 on: 21 November, 2017, 12:56:48 pm »
I just caught the end of the BBC thing.  SD Brailsford's entire schtick in front of the select committee was "some big boys did it then ran away".  Not very convincing.
It certainly is not.

But the select committee - and the Court of YACF - dealt with this many moons ago.
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #880 on: 21 November, 2017, 01:36:44 pm »
He basically says over and over "I don't know for sure, I have to rely on what I've been told by our doctor (and he's lost his laptop with his notes)".
It's such a contrast between the bombastic attitude of "We manage all the tiny little details which aggregate to a noticeable improvement - have you seen our super cool pillows?".

To me, they've always been just another bike team. With a giant pile of cash to throw around. Slipstream are much more credible IMO.

Really? The same Slipstream that JV repeatedly said he'd close if anyone on the team ever tested positive? And didn't. The same slipstream that Sir Brad rode for in his breakthrough year and was racing, like really racing, Lance. Vaughters did some pro-active bullet dodging there methinks saying he rode for them for a year with essentially zero oversight from Slipstream.

It's pro-cycling, no-one's got any credibility, the show just goes on. 

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #881 on: 21 November, 2017, 01:58:13 pm »
I didn't say that they were 100% clean, just that they are significantly more credible than Sky IMO. No cortisone is a major deal to me.
Wiggins wasn't exactly out climbing anyone in 2009 - he got dropped on most of the major mountaintop finishes, and despite time trialling well he finished almost 4 minutes back.
But yes, I agree that pro cycling has very little credibility due to the past, and also the nature of the endeavour. Same is true of track and field.

I was somewhat surprised that documentary didn't have anything from Nicole Cooke in it.  She is scathing of British Cycling, and (maybe this is just me being naive) I think she genuinely was clean. They used footage of her crossing the line in Beijing during the program, but it's not like BC supported her in any way...

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #882 on: 21 November, 2017, 08:15:44 pm »
Wiggins was outclimbing most of the field when he finished 4th. Sure he was dropped, but only by the race winners. 4 mins back on the winner in 2009 is actually a very credible result. That type of performance had been seen at the Giro where he was up there on the mountain stages till the end of week 2. Much of the difference can be attributed to the weight changes - quite significant changes - in moving from a track cyclist with a lot of power but quite a lot of weight to a road physique with a similar amount of power and much less (can't remember but it was in the order of 8-10 kg) weight which is considerable. The weight makes a huge difference and the increase in performance from his track focussed days is unsurprising there.

The good thing is that Sutton is gone, a man whose competitive instincts exceed his intelligence, and Dr Freeman who appears to have been seen as initially a safe pair of hands but really was a liability who was amenable to pushing the boundaries. Bear in mind that any TUE is also signed off by UCI so has more than just the team involved.

My personal view is that TUE should only be acceptable for out of competition tests and if you need a TUE for anything that is substantive prior to starting then you are not fit to race. Something acute requiring immediate intervention, e.g. a bee sting, would also be acceptable but should cause a withdrawal from racing.
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #883 on: 21 November, 2017, 08:28:19 pm »
Endurance track riders traditionally are heavier than stage racers because they have extra muscle that let them put out more power but knocks them around on long climbs. So why are world class track riders carrying around extra weight that doesn't actually make them faster? Drop significant amounts of weight but maintain power output is quite possible for those of us further down the food chain with excessive fat but by somebody who is at Olympic level? It doesn't add up.
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simonp

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #884 on: 21 November, 2017, 09:40:08 pm »
Endurance track riders traditionally are heavier than stage racers because they have extra muscle that let them put out more power but knock them around on long climbs. So why are world class track riders carrying around extra weight that doesn't actually make them faster? Drop significant amounts of weight but maintain power output is quite possible for those of us further down the food chain with excessive fat but by somebody who is at Olympic level? It doesn't add up.

A 4km pursuit event surely has different requirements in terms of aerobic vs anaerobic power compared to a 200km tour stage. Since I took up rowing I've gained muscle mass, but I think my ability to produce long power has dropped.

simonp

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #885 on: 21 November, 2017, 09:41:29 pm »
When I look at the website of the company that the Daily Mail article seems to refer to, I see things like bandages. No pharmaceuticals at all.

Most strange. What business would they have supplying T patches to anyone?

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #886 on: 21 November, 2017, 09:46:49 pm »


The good thing is that Sutton is gone, a man whose competitive instincts exceed his intelligence, and Dr Freeman who appears to have been seen as initially a safe pair of hands but really was a liability who was amenable to pushing the boundaries. Bear in mind that any TUE is also signed off by UCI so has more than just the team involved.



Its quite interesting to filter this through what we know from several sources.

Wiggins's doctor at Garmin, Prentice Steffen, commented that whilst at Garmin, Wiggins was never a very 'medical rider. The implication being that whilst at Sky he was moved towards so being.

The whilstle-blower told of how Freeman was bullied into medicating riders....by Sutton.

Perhaps most interesting of all is the connection we can now make over the hiring of Leinders. When this was first exposed, Brailsford used the death of a Spanish soigneur on Team Sky as justification for hiring Leinders ("we realised we didn't know enough about riding in the heat....bla...bla...bla"). Today, I read that the death of Txema, the soigneur, was used to get rid of an *existing team doctor.....one who took an ethical stance and wouldn't give in to pressure to dope medicate riders unecessarily.

*I'll go back and find the names later


LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #887 on: 21 November, 2017, 09:48:17 pm »
Endurance track riders do big miles and use road races as part of their training. Many pursuit riders crossed over to become professional road sprinters and domestiques. Only one became a good enough climber to win the Tour. Dropping weight to climb better is common, maintaining the same power output while doing so isn't normal (at Olympic level).
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citoyen

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #888 on: 21 November, 2017, 10:04:50 pm »
Many pursuit riders crossed over to become professional road sprinters and domestiques. Only one became a good enough climber to win the Tour.

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #889 on: 21 November, 2017, 10:44:43 pm »
Endurance track riders do big miles and use road races as part of their training. Many pursuit riders crossed over to become professional road sprinters and domestiques. Only one became a good enough climber to win the Tour. Dropping weight to climb better is common, maintaining the same power output while doing so isn't normal (at Olympic level).

A measure of an ultimate rouleur is the hour record. There are a few holders who won the Tour as well. Indurain would be the prime example. We don't see as many TTs these days, the public likes climbing stages.

I'm happy enough with a big tester holding on in the mountains with the help of an expensive team, and cementing victory against the clock. They should bring back the TTs.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #890 on: 22 November, 2017, 06:57:35 am »
The BBC documentary can be seen here (For those of us without iPlayer).
https://youtu.be/J1WTw6nYSmA

Shane Sutton is extremely slimey. Brailsford is very good at staying neutral until his little speech at the end.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #891 on: 22 November, 2017, 08:17:33 am »
Sutton really is very very thick, isn't he.  He (unwittingly, I'm sure) admitted that Sky used the TUE system to gain an advantage (ie. doping rather than treatment)

I remember when he declared at the DCMS that Sky is the cleanest team he'd ever worked with. He was then asked if he'd ever witnessed doping at any other team he'd worked with and he said "No".

What a dunce. He had no idea just how stupid he'd made himself look.

On the documentary, he laughed off bullying accusations by saying he is a 5'6" 60 year old.   This, the man in charge of team selection and allocation of resources....


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #892 on: 22 November, 2017, 09:18:10 am »
On the documentary, he laughed off bullying accusations by saying he is a 5'6" 60 year old.   This, the man in charge of team selection and allocation of resources....
Exactly.  How could I bully someone, when I have absolute power over their career and income?  ::-)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #893 on: 22 November, 2017, 07:15:47 pm »
Just re-watched this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzjQoxjqG_8 (Since it was referenced in the documentary).

I'm pretty sure that the TUE procedure that Wiggins describes is the one that's in place now and at the time when he got his TUEs, they did not need a specialists recommendation and only one doctor at UCI needed to sign off on it. (Who has now long resigned, most likely with a healthy bank account).

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #894 on: 22 November, 2017, 07:21:35 pm »
Without checking, I think you are correct.

The scandal erupted over Froome's "fast track" TUE which he used to win a race because it had been signed off by zorzoli and hadnt been considered by the 3 person panel as per policy.

mattc

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #895 on: 23 November, 2017, 05:22:44 pm »
I hope they only allow this "Fast Track" system for very important races, and very important riders.
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #896 on: 23 November, 2017, 05:31:12 pm »
Get rid of TUE's completely. if you're not fit on race day, tough titties! Still race or drop out altogether!

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #897 on: 23 November, 2017, 05:35:26 pm »
Well that is the thing.

According to various physicians, if Wiggins actually needed the drug with which he was treated, he should have been in hospital in an emergency....not getting ready to ride a WT  bike race....

...and win.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #898 on: 23 November, 2017, 06:44:45 pm »
I hope they only allow this "Fast Track" system for very important races, and very important riders.

I believe that's how it works [\irony]

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #899 on: 23 November, 2017, 08:28:17 pm »
Get rid of TUE's completely. if you're not fit on race day, tough titties! Still race or drop out altogether!
It makes life simpler, but it's not something that you can get through WADA.
Are they OK out of competition?
What about people who require medication for lifelong conditions?