Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[chrisbainbridge]

Back into keto the last couple of days and the headache!

[morbihan]

Please don't hate me for sharing a Daily Mail article...but its very topical to the subject at hand.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314239/Growing-army-doctors-helping-patients-REVERSE-DIABETES.html?fbclid=IwAR0C5hAybMh45rIm86FkmVKLMroY8mssVAF4H19tr8BeUe8RPNxC3UOijUs

[sojournermike]

Please don't hate me for sharing a Daily Mail article...but its very topical to the subject at hand.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314239/Growing-army-doctors-helping-patients-REVERSE-DIABETES.html?fbclid=IwAR0C5hAybMh45rIm86FkmVKLMroY8mssVAF4H19tr8BeUe8RPNxC3UOijUs

No hate on you, but I’ll go out on a limb and point out that a significant proportion of the visible low carb evangelists have managed to combine some form of Covid denial with climate change denial.

That’s not to say the approach is without merit, but the team at Newcastle Uni have achieved similar results for T2 diabetes in peer reviewed studies using very low calorie, but sugar based, diets to support significant weight loss.

[Auntie Helen]

I thought Keto/low carb can sometimes help reverse type 2 diabetes was a known thing - I think the NHS website even says that now. Certainly I've seen it on Michael Mosley's various TV programmes etc.

I'm not clicking on a Daily Mail link though ;-)

[L CC]

Diabetes UK recommend the Low Carb Program

NHS are working with Weight Watchers "diabetes prevention programme" - lower carb than the previous WW options

NHS also recommend Second Nature -a low carb program

It's becoming standard practise first line defence against T2 diabetes: low carb weight loss.

[ian]

For the record, any weight loss will impact type 2 diabetes (and this has long been the recommendation).

[morbihan]

For the record, any weight loss will impact type 2 diabetes (and this has long been the recommendation).

The problem is though that people go on these calorie restricted diets that are not sustainable. They end up yo-yoing and can end up putting own more weight than before.

[Morat]

It appears there has been some more research:
https://www.statnews.com/2021/09/13/how-a-fatally-tragically-flawed-paradigm-has-derailed-the-science-of-obesity/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

[ian]

I dunno, go eat out in a restaurant in Kigali, then do the same in Atlanta. I guess those Rwandans have better hormones than the good people of Georgia.

(Of course, it's more complicated, and of course, how we respond to the food – and the type of food – we eat is important, but jeezus, the US is the land of bottomless fries and 32-ounce sodas.)

[Morat]

I dunno, go eat out in a restaurant in Kigali, then do the same in Atlanta. I guess those Rwandans have better hormones than the good people of Georgia.

(Of course, it's more complicated, and of course, how we respond to the food – and the type of food – we eat is important, but jeezus, the US is the land of bottomless fries and 32-ounce sodas.)

As I read it, the point of the article is that 32oz sodas and bottomless fries are exactly the kind of foods that would contribute to obesity.
But it's a long article and I'm knackered.

[ian]

As far as I can tell from a skim read they seem to be intent on creating a schism in the science that doesn't really exist so they can counter it, I'm not sure anyone argues that obesity is solely down to excessive calories, just that of course that it is difficult to get fat without the calories, and the conflation of lifestyle, modern food types, and those excessive calorie intact combine to give us the obesity epidemic we have in (primarily) the western world.

[ElyDave]

Please don't hate me for sharing a Daily Mail article...but its very topical to the subject at hand.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314239/Growing-army-doctors-helping-patients-REVERSE-DIABETES.html?fbclid=IwAR0C5hAybMh45rIm86FkmVKLMroY8mssVAF4H19tr8BeUe8RPNxC3UOijUs

No hate on you, but I’ll go out on a limb and point out that a significant proportion of the visible low carb evangelists have managed to combine some form of Covid denial with climate change denial.

That’s not to say the approach is without merit, but the team at Newcastle Uni have achieved similar results for T2 diabetes in peer reviewed studies using very low calorie, but sugar based, diets to support significant weight loss.

Really?

Low carb evangelist T1D, double vaccinated because having had flu while diabetic, the idea of COVID for me and my disabled son is fucking scary.

And BTW, my career has been built on helping organisations with how they deal with climate change.

Seems I contradict every element of that?

[sojournermike]

Please don't hate me for sharing a Daily Mail article...but its very topical to the subject at hand.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314239/Growing-army-doctors-helping-patients-REVERSE-DIABETES.html?fbclid=IwAR0C5hAybMh45rIm86FkmVKLMroY8mssVAF4H19tr8BeUe8RPNxC3UOijUs

No hate on you, but I’ll go out on a limb and point out that a significant proportion of the visible low carb evangelists have managed to combine some form of Covid denial with climate change denial.

That’s not to say the approach is without merit, but the team at Newcastle Uni have achieved similar results for T2 diabetes in peer reviewed studies using very low calorie, but sugar based, diets to support significant weight loss.

Really?

Low carb evangelist T1D, double vaccinated because having had flu while diabetic, the idea of COVID for me and my disabled son is fucking scary.

And BTW, my career has been built on helping organisations with how they deal with climate change.

Seems I contradict every element of that?

Brilliant - I’m genuinely delighted to hear that. Sadly, I suspect your not as visible as Noakes, Cummins et al. I was careful not to lump everyone into the same barrel. You’re also a ‘special’ case given T1D.

Mike

[ElyDave]

Glad to be "special", I think 

[Jakob]

Huh, none of the keto people I know are covid/vaccine/climate change deniers.

[Regulator]

Huh, none of the keto people I know are covid/vaccine/climate change deniers.

I’m certainly not…

[Jakob]

Aand what I really came into this thread for, was to say that I've been fully keto again for 2 weeks now. 2kgs down (1kg probably just water), more energy, less headaches. Made me wonder why it took so long to get back on it.
Keeping it under 20g carbs a day, with the odd 30g+ day. It's surprisingly easy once you get the routine established and sugar craving go away.
I've added Nuun electrolytes tablets, which helped with the transition, for sure. No keto-flu to speak of it this.

[Auntie Helen]

As I’ve probably said above, I’m doing well now on low carb (not Keto), eating up to 100g carbs per day and doing 16:8 fasting. I have reached my target weight and am just starting to work out what extra I should eat as I am so used to the food quantities for the 24kg weight loss since last October.

I am happy that I can eat more carbs without issues but I don’t waste them on pasta, I have chocolate pralines instead!!!

[L CC]

All the NHS approved diets are lower carb, these days. It's stopped being a fad. You don't have to go full keto, but by cutting down on sugar and not being afraid of the fat content you get a diet (as in the total mix of food eaten) which focuses on real food, which is what we all should be doing, fat or not.
And Helen, you are an example to us all, sticking it out and getting good results.

[ElyDave]

Absolutely, well done AH.

I'm generally at 50-100g per day these days.  Today will be a bit higher as I had 40g whilst out on today's 75km ride, but that doesn't really count as far as I'm concerned.

[chrisbainbridge]

The concept that insulin is a fat storing enzyme used to ready people for times of hardship by storing fat during times of plenty is really key to a lot of this.  If the experimental animals get fat on a calorie restricted diet then it is not the diet that is at fault.  In the average human being a high carb diet may well overwhelm the inbuilt control mechanisms and drive obesity.  Clearly it is multifactorial but many of us will recognise the "addictive' drive of eating even though we know we have eaten enough for our needs.

In my field we are starting to look at the possibility that vlc diets may be beneficial for nerve function and reverse or reduce such diseases as carpal tunnel syndrome.

[Marco Stefano]

The concept that insulin is a fat storing enzyme used to ready people for times of hardship by storing fat during times of plenty is really key to a lot of this...

Agreed. I've been following this thread with interest for quite a while, though not following a keto diet myself. Since being made redundant (effectively retired) over two years ago I have gone from 83-84 kg to 74-75 kg, part of which is due to being able to manage eating better (and not around commuting and work timing), and part is dietary change and more time for exercise / training.

I have always been slightly overweight, which I think is partly due to a degree of insulin resistance. My main focus is now time-restricted eating in an 8 hour window (I hesitate to call getting slightly hungry late morning as a fast) and eating with insulin levels in mind, which really means lower carbs (but not really low carb as I still eat a little bread, pasta, sweet potato, fruits etc.) and higher fat and protein. More low HR exercise following Covid in Jan (walking, then cycling, sculling & gym) has rebuilt my aerobic base somewhat, and 'fasted' morning sessions (garage gym / 1 - 1.5 hours sculling / 20 -30 mile bike bimble) seem absolutely fine.

So, lower carbs / higher fat seems to be working for me slowly in weight loss terms (and I have higher muscle mass than a few months ago, so fat loss) and in allowing the training that I wish to do. We'll see how it goes as more high intensity work comes in.

[chrisbainbridge]

Cara B Ebbeling et al, Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on insulin-resistant dyslipoproteinemia—a randomized controlled feeding trial, The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2021).  DOI: 10.1093/ajcn/nqab287

Interesting paper suggesting low carb diets improve a variety of cardiac risk factors.

[geraldc]

Re the keto people supporting conspiracies/rabid anti vaxxers, that will be your Paleo diet mob, as cavemen didn't have RNA vaccines, so we shouldn't either.

My dad has type 2 diabetes, but being old and stubborn, he's stopped taking his metaformin, and claims he doesn't need it, I don't mind him not taking it if he really doesn't need it, but the last time the nurse visited him his blood sugar was too high, so I want him to try using one of those continuous glucose monitors (freestyle libre), so I've bought a couple and am wearing one myself to try it out before sticking one on my dad. It's fascinating to eat food and see the spikes and how things like fat can slow sugar release. I'm going to see how eating rice that has been cooled and then reheated, and the effect of a shot of vinegar when eating carbs will have on blood sugar.

I'm currently reading/listening to Big Fat Surprise its a very entertaining book about how the world went down the saturated fats are bad route, and how vegetable oils are a new invention. It's making me question a lot of things about what I chose to eat. I think less vegetable oil and more cheese and belly pork from now on.

I also watched this https://youtu.be/GQJ0Z0DRumg which has some theories regarding why low carb diets work

[Auntie Helen]

I've been at my target weight for 2 months now so have been experimenting with what I eat. I am still tracking food eaten and macros and staying within my calorie goal which is now 250 calories more than when I was losing weight. I am also experimenting with slightly more carbs, so around 100g per day, and all seems fine - I'm not getting the raving hunger pangs that I used to get when eating carbs and my weight is stable at 69kg (started at 110).

So I will see how it goes over the next couple of months and hopefully I will settle on an equilibrium. 100g of carbs seems like plenty, I am having chocolate and popcorn and even had a puff pastry lid on a pie I made the other week! Not bothering with bread or pasta or potatoes as I am perfectly happy with all the alternatives that we have found over the last two years.