Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: dim on 22 November, 2017, 11:22:29 am
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They saw a property for rent, contacted the landlord, viewed the property and agreed to rent it for £800 per month
The Landlord stated that he is in Newcastle, and insisted that they pay £900 into his bank so as to secure the tenancy, sent them an email with a tenancy agreement etc etc
They paid £900 into his bank this morning (transfered from my daughter's bank), and went to make arrangements with the person who lives there at present so as to collect the keys on Friday
Got there and the current tenant had a hissy fit saying that the property is rented through an agent and accused my daughter and boyfriend of being fraudsters
a quick google finds the guy (Edward Freestone) on facebook:
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Freestone Edward to HOUSES FOR SALE, RENT OR SWAP ST HELENS AND SURROUNDING AREAS
17 November at 16:21 ·
Private: Hello friends, i have a 2 bedroom house available for rent in Cotterdale Cl, Saint Helens WA9 ( Pets and decoration allowed) Inbox me if you want to rent and for more information...... No agency please.
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Richard Dodgson to HOUSES FOR SALE, RENT OR SWAP ST HELENS AND SURROUNDING AREAS
15 November at 16:30 ·
Looking for a 2 bedroom flat or house to rent in st helens asap
FREE
HI GUYS BE VERY CAREFUL A GUY CALLED FREESTONE EDWARD TRIED TO RENT ME A HOUSE THAT WAS NOT HIS!!
I SPOKE TO THE ESATE AGENTS THIS MORNING AND THEY CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS NOTHINGTO DO WITH THE HOUSE
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My daughter and her boyfriend have gone to the bank and the police and I just hope that they will get their money back as they saved up for a long time ... seems like this guy scams people all over the country :(
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How were they able to view the property if the 'Landlord' was not the owner? where did they get the initial details from?
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How were they able to view the property if the 'Landlord' was not the owner? where did they get the initial details from?
property was advertised on facebook and the scammer stated that he owns the property. They went to the address to view the property and the current tenants let them in to view
apparantly this fraud is pretty common here in the UK
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It is a common fraud - and the problem is that the only contact is via FB (who won't release details of the account without a struggle and all that will give you is an email address and a temp IP address) and a bank account.
Really sorry for your daughter and boyfriend. My daughter almost got caught by something similar but contacted me first before handing over anything.
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It's one of those things where accepted business practices are barely indistinguishable from a scam anyway. Sticking to a bricks-and-mortar letting agency just means you get exploited in legal ways by weasels in pointy shoes.
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It is a common fraud - and the problem is that the only contact is via FB (who won't release details of the account without a struggle and all that will give you is an email address and a temp IP address) and a bank account.
Really sorry for your daughter and boyfriend. My daughter almost got caught by something similar but contacted me first before handing over anything.
They have just been to Barclays, and they never got any help whatsoever from the bank. The bank says they must go to the police
I would have thought that the bank would try and recover /freeze the money if it has not been withdrawn yet, or to obtain CC footage of the guy when he attempts to withdraw the money from his bank or ATM (they only paid the deposit a couple of hours ago)
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I would not expect Barclays to do anything. Think about it; two people walk in and say "I want you to transfer money back from a bank account that isn't mine into my account, and the bank account is with a different bank."
Of course they can't do anything. Banks following instructions like that would just lead to another type of fraud - people would buy high-value items like cars, pay by bank transfer then get the bank to transfer the money back again!
The police are the only route.
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Am I missing something, they went around to see the place, the current tenants let them in to view and I presume confirmed it was for rent (otherwise why would they let them in to view)?
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Am I missing something, they went around to see the place, the current tenants let them in to view and I presume confirmed it was for rent (otherwise why would they let them in to view)?
Presumably if you're pulling this scam, the first thing you do is find somewhere that is actually for rent through someone else, and assume that - in the best tradition of landlords - the tenants are used to people turning up to view without warning, and British Politeness does the rest.
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Ah, I see, he's piggybacking an existing rental. I'd be a terrible scammer. Mind you, with all the money I've received from helpful operatives of the IMF (Hi Christine!) and various African governments, I don't need to.
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I'm afraid unless you post up a photo of yourself with a loaf of bread balanced on your head, I won't believe a word you say.
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Am I missing something, they went around to see the place, the current tenants let them in to view and I presume confirmed it was for rent (otherwise why would they let them in to view)?
Presumably if you're pulling this scam, the first thing you do is find somewhere that is actually for rent through someone else, and assume that - in the best tradition of landlords - the tenants are used to people turning up to view without warning, and British Politeness does the rest.
Unless the scammer knows the tenants or maybe the scammer is the tenant! Rent is so expensive these days..
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It sounds like the current occupants are at least in on the scam.
If somebody turned up on my doorstep saying they wanted/expected to move in, I would sympathise with them and tell them they had been scammed. I wouldn't immediately accuse them of being fraudsters.
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snakehips makes a very good point.
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It sounds like the current occupants are at least in on the scam.
If somebody turned up on my doorstep saying they wanted/expected to move in, I would sympathise with them and tell them they had been scammed. I wouldn't immediately accuse them of being fraudsters.
ditto. What's more I wouldn't open the door anyway unless I expected viewers by an appointment with my normal contact. Even if they did look harmless.
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Well, presumably the scammer scans the ads for currently available rentals and 'adopts' one. So the current tenants may well be expecting viewings. That said, I'm sure I'd only view with the landlord around, I wouldn't just turn up at someone's flat. And vice versa, if I were the tenant, I wouldn't conduct any viewings on behalf of my landlord. You can't just invite anyone in, that's how you get difficult to shift vampires.
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I don't get vampires because the road to my house goes over running water.
This is another variation of the popular push payment fraud, often used to nick completion funds from housebuyers. It's basic social engineering. Some banks will compensate but they don't have to - they are merely following your correctly-authorised instructions. One lady lost £20m when her husband (at work)asked her via e-mail for a CHAPS payment for a business opportunity. Except the e-mail wasn't from her husband.
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Well, presumably the scammer scans the ads for currently available rentals and 'adopts' one. So the current tenants may well be expecting viewings. That said, I'm sure I'd only view with the landlord around, I wouldn't just turn up at someone's flat. And vice versa, if I were the tenant, I would conduct any viewings on behalf of my landlord. You can't just invite anyone in, that's how you get difficult to shift vampires.
Remembering back to the misty days of my studenthood in the mid noughties, I wouldn't have been surprised if some new tenants of certain landlords had turned up on spec without them. I didn't have any of those landlords myself, and I might not personally have let those tenants in, but a sizeable proportion of tenants on that sort of let won't find unannounced viewings particularly remarkable - and this will be a large enough fraction that the scammer can get away with it, particularly since he's hidden behind a fake facebook account.
I'd find an unannounced visitation a lot less fishy than a request to pay someone several hundred pounds when I'd never met them in person or communicated outside soshul meeja and I didn't have the door keys in my hand.
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Indeed.
As a tenant, my response to an unannounced viewing would be to refuse entry. They don't want that landlord anyway.
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I don't get vampires because the road to my house goes over running water.
This is another variation of the popular push payment fraud, often used to nick completion funds from housebuyers. It's basic social engineering. Some banks will compensate but they don't have to - they are merely following your correctly-authorised instructions. One lady lost £20m when her husband (at work)asked her via e-mail for a CHAPS payment for a business opportunity. Except the e-mail wasn't from her husband.
Indeed.
A friend of mine is moving. He was asked by the estate agent to provide copies of his bank details and statements. I suggested to him that he should only be doing this, if required, face to face with his solicitor. He was sceptical of my advice but did indeed do as I suggested.
WTF does an estate agent need your bank details for I wonder?
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WTF does an estate agent need your bank details for I wonder?
Is he a cash buyer? Estate agents like to satisfy themselves that a cash buyer actually has enough cash.
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It's not the estate agent's business though. They can 'like' all they want.
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It sounds like the current occupants are at least in on the scam.
If somebody turned up on my doorstep saying they wanted/expected to move in, I would sympathise with them and tell them they had been scammed. I wouldn't immediately accuse them of being fraudsters.
ditto. What's more I wouldn't open the door anyway unless I expected viewers by an appointment with my normal contact. Even if they did look harmless.
My landlords have sent random viewers round in the past. It’s common practice.
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lots more people scammed .... (quote from Facebook:
Do not reply to a cullwick mark anthony he is a fraud!! Saying he has a property on penn road, it has been confirmed this is not the case at all!.
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Abi Malik
Abi Malik Oh gosh he's at it again. He did the same the other month with a property in watermead x
Like · 11 November at 16:41
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Karina Price
Karina Price What the hell, was it reported?? Xx
Like · 11 November at 16:42
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Abi Malik
Abi Malik Yes the police were involved I think xx
Like · 11 November at 16:42
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Karina Price
Karina Price Ill ring them now, i cant believe this, do you know who admin is for this group?he should be blocked! X
Like · 11 November at 16:44
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Mani Rai
Mani Rai I posted last time on Aylesbury private property plz be careful don’t do any business on Facebook, I can’t believe still people believe I’ll post again , admin can block him he will create another I’d , thing is everybody should b very careful
Like · 1 · 11 November at 16:54
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Leanne Stevens
Leanne Stevens He messaged me about the property
Like · 11 November at 16:57
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Karina Price
Karina Price He went quiet when he realised it wasnt just me to move in
Like · 11 November at 16:58
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Mani Rai
Mani Rai He doing to everyone ,plz check with every person who want to rent property check online with full address an pay about £10 , you can check who is original landlord
Like · 11 November at 17:00
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Dawn Barlow
Dawn Barlow
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Like · 12 November at 18:16
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Dawn Barlow
Dawn Barlow He’s still at it-just posted this an hour ago on another page
Like · 12 November at 18:16
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Karina Price
Karina Price Can you report it to admin and post a post up to warn people?
Like · 12 November at 18:45
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Dawn Barlow
Dawn Barlow I’ve asked to join the group awaiting confirmation then I will x
Like · 1 · 12 November at 18:46
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Karina Price
Karina Price Brilliant thank you x
Like · 12 November at 18:55
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Karina Price
Karina Price Bloody bastard!
Like · 12 November at 18:44
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Heidi Wattam to Aylesbury Private Property to Rent
11 November at 16:14 · Weedon ·
The post in this group from Cullwick Mark Anthony is a scam!! He called our office yesterday demanding the address for the Penn Road property without providing contact details for a viewing. A lady who is looking to rent on this group messaged me about the same one, he is posing as Landlord and she almost paid him £800 to love in to a house he does not own!!
DO NOT PAY
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Katy Harrison to Houses for sale or rent around Keighley
16 November at 10:01 ·
⚠️ WARNING ⚠️
Do not correspond with a man called Cullwick Mark Anthony.
(I am one of the admin of 'houses for rent in Keighley and surrounding areas-PRIVATE LETTINGS' group and it has come to our attention that he is a scammer.He made suspicious comments on posts and inboxes and after searching his name we found he has scammed money from people in the past)
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It sounds like the current occupants are at least in on the scam.
If somebody turned up on my doorstep saying they wanted/expected to move in, I would sympathise with them and tell them they had been scammed. I wouldn't immediately accuse them of being fraudsters.
ditto. What's more I wouldn't open the door anyway unless I expected viewers by an appointment with my normal contact. Even if they did look harmless.
My landlords have sent random viewers round in the past. It’s common practice.
And look what happens!
I've not rented for years. I'm positive my first landlady (as it happens) would never have sent people knocking on the door to view without telling us and the 2nd (an agency) didn't either.
Altho' I am no lawyer I would suggest that whilst a landlord might claim the right to inspect his own property for maintenance purposes, viewers turning up without prior notice could abuse the right of the tenant to 'quiet enjoyment':
https://www.foxwilliams.com/news/704
but given the demand for housing I wouldn't be surprised to hear that tenants can't stand on their rights these days.
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Thinking about, back in olden times when we rented, we probably did let people look around at the end of our tenure, but only if the agency had confirmed everything. Had someone just turned up at the door, vampire or not, we'd have told them to piss off. And sprayed them with garlic-infused holy water just in case. There weren't many vampires in Shepherd's Bush (or Sheepy Tree, as we called it) mostly because of people like us.
I suppose it's modern times, but finding rentals on Facebook et c. seems like a recipe for disaster. At least estate agents are predictably annoying in their rip-offs. I remember when I first moved to London, back during the reign of King Arthur I think, and the first place I saw. A small cupboard in Paddington offered by an Albanian tyrant who wanted the deposit 'right then' or he'd let someone else take it. He said this while blocking the door. I'm not proud but I kicked him as hard as I could in the shin and ran off. After that, estates agents seemed, well, the safer of the two options. I'm just not Liam Neeson. I don't have that particular set of skills.
Mind you, it was running away from Albania tyrant landlords that landed me in a house full of late-night BBC continuity announcers.
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It sounds like the current occupants are at least in on the scam.
If somebody turned up on my doorstep saying they wanted/expected to move in, I would sympathise with them and tell them they had been scammed. I wouldn't immediately accuse them of being fraudsters.
ditto. What's more I wouldn't open the door anyway unless I expected viewers by an appointment with my normal contact. Even if they did look harmless.
My landlords have sent random viewers round in the past. It’s common practice.
And look what happens!
I've not rented for years. I'm positive my first landlady (as it happens) would never have sent people knocking on the door to view without telling us and the 2nd (an agency) didn't either.
Altho' I am no lawyer I would suggest that whilst a landlord might claim the right to inspect his own property for maintenance purposes, viewers turning up without prior notice could abuse the right of the tenant to 'quiet enjoyment':
https://www.foxwilliams.com/news/704
but given the demand for housing I wouldn't be surprised to hear that tenants can't stand on their rights these days.
How many tenants do you think even know their rights? The ones prepared to stand on them are a subset of those.
Of course, cases like this are why I get pissed off with people who think it's more polite to let landlords routinely walk over due procedure. They help create a culture where the vulnerable and the stupid can get more easily scammed :(
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Certainly for student-type lets it would be common practice for unannounced viewers to arrive if you're moving out in the near future. But still something doesn't add up. Who actually was there when they viewed it? If it was the same people who later had the 'hissy fit' and accused them of being fraudsters, that's a bit inconsistent at least.
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I don't think that the reaction by the tenants is the one I would have expected from people who had no knowledge of the scam.
I've had various friends scammed in this way in the past but the reaction of tenants in the properties in question has been very different. I would report them to the police also in that situation.
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Certainly for student-type lets it would be common practice for unannounced viewers to arrive if you're moving out in the near future. But still something doesn't add up. Who actually was there when they viewed it? If it was the same people who later had the 'hissy fit' and accused them of being fraudsters, that's a bit inconsistent at least.
The guy who scammed my daughter told her to go to the house and if the tenant was there, she should say that he (the Landlord) gives permission that she views it as she is keen to rent it
The guy was there, said no problem, and my daughter and her partner viewed the property. My daughter then told the guy that she is going to rent the property and will collect the keys from the tenant on Friday (tomorrow), as he is moving ot and should be done by 12pm
He said no probs
then, on Wednesday, the letting agent contacted the tenant and told him to drop off the keys at the office. He said no, my daughter (the new tenant) will be collecting the keys on Friday
All hell broke loose and the agent told the tenant that my daughter is trying to do fraud and that the real Landlord never gave permission.
They never exchanged phone numbers, so the tenant could not contact my daughter. After my daughter paid the deposit, she went around to the house with her partner, and the current tenant wanted to have a boxing match with my daughters partner, and even took photos of them, aswell as my daughters car number plate
this guy scamming has been doing it for a while now and has conned many people out of cash all over the country (loads of unhappy people on facebook)
The Police dont give a shit .... they could catch him if they really wanted to (from his IP address .... CCTV footage of the guy when he withdraws the money from a bank etc etc)
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The Police don't give a shit because.
Govt Cuts.
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The Police dont give a shit .... they could catch him if they really wanted to (from his IP address .... CCTV footage of the guy when he withdraws the money from a bank etc etc)
I would think someone who is a bit smart on the internet could be extremely hard to catch unfortunately.
It's a simple matter to have a bank account and never go near a bank! e.g. Atom Bank. It has no branches at all.
I'd love to suggest how this scammer could be caught, I was a victim of a not dissimilar scam involving car adverts, pre-internet. I was just lucky it wasn't such a large sum.
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Perhaps not so much that the police don't give a shit, more that the toilet is broken and they're not allowed to call dyno-rod.
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Certainly for student-type lets it would be common practice for unannounced viewers to arrive if you're moving out in the near future. But still something doesn't add up. Who actually was there when they viewed it? If it was the same people who later had the 'hissy fit' and accused them of being fraudsters, that's a bit inconsistent at least.
The guy who scammed my daughter told her to go to the house and if the tenant was there, she should say that he (the Landlord) gives permission that she views it as she is keen to rent it
The guy was there, said no problem, and my daughter and her partner viewed the property. My daughter then told the guy that she is going to rent the property and will collect the keys from the tenant on Friday (tomorrow), as he is moving ot and should be done by 12pm
He said no probs
then, on Wednesday, the letting agent contacted the tenant and told him to drop off the keys at the office. He said no, my daughter (the new tenant) will be collecting the keys on Friday
All hell broke loose and the agent told the tenant that my daughter is trying to do fraud and that the real Landlord never gave permission.
They never exchanged phone numbers, so the tenant could not contact my daughter. After my daughter paid the deposit, she went around to the house with her partner, and the current tenant wanted to have a boxing match with my daughters partner, and even took photos of them, aswell as my daughters car number plate
this guy scamming has been doing it for a while now and has conned many people out of cash all over the country (loads of unhappy people on facebook)
The Police dont give a shit .... they could catch him if they really wanted to (from his IP address .... CCTV footage of the guy when he withdraws the money from a bank etc etc)
If I understand that correctly, it sounds to me like the tenant is probably not in on it, just took your daughter's assurance about landlord at face value.
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Certainly for student-type lets it would be common practice for unannounced viewers to arrive if you're moving out in the near future. But still something doesn't add up. Who actually was there when they viewed it? If it was the same people who later had the 'hissy fit' and accused them of being fraudsters, that's a bit inconsistent at least.
The guy who scammed my daughter told her to go to the house and if the tenant was there, she should say that he (the Landlord) gives permission that she views it as she is keen to rent it
The guy was there, said no problem, and my daughter and her partner viewed the property. My daughter then told the guy that she is going to rent the property and will collect the keys from the tenant on Friday (tomorrow), as he is moving ot and should be done by 12pm
He said no probs
then, on Wednesday, the letting agent contacted the tenant and told him to drop off the keys at the office. He said no, my daughter (the new tenant) will be collecting the keys on Friday
All hell broke loose and the agent told the tenant that my daughter is trying to do fraud and that the real Landlord never gave permission.
They never exchanged phone numbers, so the tenant could not contact my daughter. After my daughter paid the deposit, she went around to the house with her partner, and the current tenant wanted to have a boxing match with my daughters partner, and even took photos of them, aswell as my daughters car number plate
this guy scamming has been doing it for a while now and has conned many people out of cash all over the country (loads of unhappy people on facebook)
The Police dont give a shit .... they could catch him if they really wanted to (from his IP address .... CCTV footage of the guy when he withdraws the money from a bank etc etc)
Ok - I understand now. The tenant was naive, but it sounds like they weren't 'in on it'.
I don't agree with you about the police (being able to catch him if they wanted). IP addresses - the only contact so far has been via Facebook or email. That doesn't give an IP address of a house or other location. The scammer doesn't need to go into a bank to get the money - he'll just use internet banking to move it round. So how are the police going to catch this person?
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.. The scammer doesn't need to go into a bank to get the money - he'll just use internet banking to move it round. So how are the police going to catch this person?
Well obviously the same way they catch all those money launderers.
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I'd follow up if the bank can do anything, I know they can suspend a payment if it's made in error, as it happened to me when some stranger transferred a considerable sum of money to my business account. I was contacted and asked if I would accept it's return. in the meantime I couldn't withdraw it. Money may of course be well gone, I'm just a little surprised they advised there was nothing they could do. I thought one of the reasons it's harder to set up a bank account than it was in the past was to trace such scams.
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I'd follow up if the bank can do anything, I know they can suspend a payment if it's made in error, as it happened to me when some stranger transferred a considerable sum of money to my business account. I was contacted and asked if I would accept it's return. in the meantime I couldn't withdraw it. Money may of course be well gone, I'm just a little surprised they advised there was nothing they could do. I thought one of the reasons it's harder to set up a bank account than it was in the past was to trace such scams.
You mean like a credit card transaction where card providers offer protection for the holder's loss? Nice idea!
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I don't know if I'm being a prat. If I am please enlighten me. But. If your daughter transferred money to a UK bank account, surely that's an easy-peasy way for 'them'* to identify the scammer... if they want to. They don't just hand out bank accounts without proof of ID for exactly this kind of reason.
*police or whatevs.
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The £20m went through four accounts and was out of the country within 20 minutes. They recruit "mules" to make their accounts available for such scams, and they're left to face the music.
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I'd follow up if the bank can do anything, I know they can suspend a payment if it's made in error, as it happened to me when some stranger transferred a considerable sum of money to my business account. I was contacted and asked if I would accept it's return. in the meantime I couldn't withdraw it. Money may of course be well gone, I'm just a little surprised they advised there was nothing they could do. I thought one of the reasons it's harder to set up a bank account than it was in the past was to trace such scams.
You mean like a credit card transaction where card providers offer protection for the holder's loss? Nice idea!
No I mean like this
http://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/consumers/what-happens-if-i-have-sent-payment-wrong-place
The intention is to reclaim money sent to the wrong recipient, so I don't know if it's applicable in this case, but the mechanism for suspending withdrawal exists.
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Nope, I can't see where it says that.
I can see where it says treat a faster payment as if you were handing over cash, and where it says if you accidentally send money to an honest person you will get it back after a month or so. But basically if you send money to a fraudster you can FRO as far as the banks are concerned
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I'm not sure why the banks should police this – to them it's a legitimate transaction. If I lend someone £50 and they go 'ha ha, you ain't getting that back' I can hardly go to the bank and demand they reimburse me because I used their cash machine to take the money out of my account. If I buy a banger that goes all clown car on my driveway... you get the idea. Unless the police ask for help within whatever bounds they have, of course.
I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but there's an element of caveat emptor here, if you hand over money to essentially an unknown stranger with no due diligence (a simple Google search here would have dished the dirt) then I have some money from my dead uncle I need help getting out of the country.
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My daughter's Bank (Barclays) says that the matter was handed over to Barclay's Fraud Department, but because she done a bank transfer, there is nothing that they can do as she gave 'permission' to barclays to transfer the cash.
Lloyds bank (where the frauster had an account) says that they cannot help my daughter and that the money was withdrawn minutes after my daughter transferred the money
The police were no help, but did take a statement.
My daughter then phoned the Banking Ombudsman, and he was very helpful. He said that my daughter must write a complaint letter to Barclays saying that they were not very helpful. They have 8 working days to respond, then my daughter must contact the Ombudsman and if it can be proved that Barclays did not do their utmost to recover the money, there may be a case
If the money was withdrawn over the counter, it would have been withdrawn in a bank which has CCTV and if Barclays has not made an effort to view the footage, (or obtain the footage and hand it over to the police), it can be said that Barclays never tried their best .... If it was transfered to another bank, then another bank etc before it was withdrawn, did Barclays follow the trail? .... if not .... we may have a case that Barclays just shrugged it off
The fraudsters phone number, aswell as his IP address from the email he sent (with the fake tenancy agreement), was also handed over to Barclays and the police (The IP address is in Birmingham)
Lloyds refuse to speak to my daughter directly, because she is not their client (WTF)
but I'm not holding my breath (The police have also not contacted us, but to be honest, I don't think that the police really cared that much)
and in the meantime, the fraudster is still scamming people daily. I always said that I never understood how people can be frauded by Nigerian scams etc, but this one fooled me .... the guy is very clever and there are many people on facebook who have fallen for the same scam
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It'll be a very bad day when people can't live their lives without Facebook!
I have an account but it's in a state of suspended animation.
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Hang on - I didn't realise you had an email address for this person.
That might make tracing them easier.
Please pm it to me, I have an idea that might work, if this person has been stupid.
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I'm not sure why the banks should police this – to them it's a legitimate transaction. If I lend someone £50 and they go 'ha ha, you ain't getting that back' I can hardly go to the bank and demand they reimburse me because I used their cash machine to take the money out of my account. If I buy a banger that goes all clown car on my driveway... you get the idea. Unless the police ask for help within whatever bounds they have, of course.
I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but there's an element of caveat emptor here, if you hand over money to essentially an unknown stranger with no due diligence (a simple Google search here would have dished the dirt) then I have some money from my dead uncle I need help getting out of the country.
There are many things the banks can do in general, and they are resisting. Every week there are cases in the back pages of the Guardian about people losing five-figure sums in bank transfer fraud.
The most glaring problem is that all that's required for a transfer is the account and sort code. You are asked to enter the account name, but you can put anything you like in there, it's completely ignored. The banks argue it's a tricky problem — is the account in the name JOHN SMITH or J SMITH or JR SMITH AND JP SMITH, etc. I don't think this is an insurmountable problem. They could run a pattern match and if over a certain percentage return the actual account name for you to verify. So if you've entered JON SMYTH it returns the actual account name, if you've entered MJN SOLICITORS it simply says no. This would also help where people have got the numbers wrong by mistake.
Another issue seems to be the ease with which fraudsters seem to be able to open multiple single-use accounts. You and I seem to have to jump through hoops to open an account, so how do the scammers seem to have no problem at all?
One common factor with these scams is that the money hits the empty account and is transferred out immediately and the account is dropped. Surely this is an obvious pattern that could be detected and flagged to a human to investigate before the money's allowed out?
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The banks will only be bothered when the loss sits on them. A simple law change making liability rest with the issuing bank unless proven otherwise would have a drastic and immediate effect.
I get the impression that there is very little behind the scenes cooperation between the banks these days. This was different 25 years ago.
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If the money was withdrawn over the counter
It won't have been, nor will it have been withdrawn from an ATM. It will have been transferred to another account, then to another undoubtedly in another country.
it can be said that Barclays never tried their best
In the cases I mentioned above, Barclays seem to be the worst of the lot. And they carry on doing the same thing regardless. Sorry, but the fact is you're extremely unlikely to see the money again.
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Hang on - I didn't realise you had an email address for this person.
That might make tracing them easier.
Please pm it to me, I have an idea that might work, if this person has been stupid.
pm sent
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..
Another issue seems to be the ease with which fraudsters seem to be able to open multiple single-use accounts. You and I seem to have to jump through hoops to open an account, so how do the scammers seem to have no problem at all?
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It's not at all hard to open bank accounts*.
I've half a dozen or so (including a Eurozone account) mostly dormant. For years one bank has 2 cash ISAs in my name which have never had a penny in them, they keep sending me statements telling me I am penniless just to rub it in.
Come to think of it, I could be a scammer :o
* or email accounts - how else do these Russian bots get to register so many ids? Apart from renting their own server (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42056555), that is..
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Email accounts aren't really comparable as anyone with a computer and internet connect can set themselves up a mailserver and generate accounts/redirects/catch-all addresses as needed. If you have the skills to program $social_media bots, then this isn't particularly challenging.
I assume it's a *bit* harder to become a bank. Creating accounts at someone else's bank is going to require some effort in terms of presenting convincing ID.
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Email accounts aren't really comparable as anyone with a computer and internet connect can set themselves up a mailserver and generate accounts/redirects/catch-all addresses as needed. If you have the skills to program $social_media bots, then this isn't particularly challenging.
I assume it's a *bit* harder to become a bank. Creating accounts at someone else's bank is going to require some effort in terms of presenting convincing ID.
If this was Prince Harry's money .... CGHQ would have apprehended the scammer on the same day ;)
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Different boyfriend required?
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..
Another issue seems to be the ease with which fraudsters seem to be able to open multiple single-use accounts. You and I seem to have to jump through hoops to open an account, so how do the scammers seem to have no problem at all?
..
It's not at all hard to open bank accounts*.
I've half a dozen or so (including a Eurozone account) mostly dormant. For years one bank has 2 cash ISAs in my name which have never had a penny in them, they keep sending me statements telling me I am penniless just to rub it in.
Come to think of it, I could be a scammer :o
* or email accounts - how else do these Russian bots get to register so many ids? Apart from renting their own server (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42056555), that is..
The bit I highlighted is a good point. It used to be much easier. Now there are the Know Your Customer and Anti Money Laundering regulations it is much harder to open a current account. Though I suppose if you stand to make hundreds of thousands with your scam, the cost of a fake/stolen passport or stolen identity is neither here nor there.
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I'm not sure why the banks should police this – to them it's a legitimate transaction. If I lend someone £50 and they go 'ha ha, you ain't getting that back' I can hardly go to the bank and demand they reimburse me because I used their cash machine to take the money out of my account. If I buy a banger that goes all clown car on my driveway... you get the idea. Unless the police ask for help within whatever bounds they have, of course.
I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but there's an element of caveat emptor here, if you hand over money to essentially an unknown stranger with no due diligence (a simple Google search here would have dished the dirt) then I have some money from my dead uncle I need help getting out of the country.
There are many things the banks can do in general, and they are resisting. Every week there are cases in the back pages of the Guardian about people losing five-figure sums in bank transfer fraud.
The most glaring problem is that all that's required for a transfer is the account and sort code. You are asked to enter the account name, but you can put anything you like in there, it's completely ignored. The banks argue it's a tricky problem — is the account in the name JOHN SMITH or J SMITH or JR SMITH AND JP SMITH, etc. I don't think this is an insurmountable problem. They could run a pattern match and if over a certain percentage return the actual account name for you to verify. So if you've entered JON SMYTH it returns the actual account name, if you've entered MJN SOLICITORS it simply says no. This would also help where people have got the numbers wrong by mistake.
Another issue seems to be the ease with which fraudsters seem to be able to open multiple single-use accounts. You and I seem to have to jump through hoops to open an account, so how do the scammers seem to have no problem at all?
One common factor with these scams is that the money hits the empty account and is transferred out immediately and the account is dropped. Surely this is an obvious pattern that could be detected and flagged to a human to investigate before the money's allowed out?
I'm not sure it'd be a good idea to let someone effectively mine their database of account names (and I suspect it's not legal, we've had to strip similar routines from products sold by my mothership). There's obviously a balance between how difficult banks make opening accounts – there's been enough complaints on here about the current hassles. I don't, tbh, know how they open these throwaway accounts, simply changing the name on out account when my wife and I merged finances took made me feel like I was a extra in a extended movie version of The Trial. But yes, I guess a false passport and a laser printer/copier make it easy.
While not necessarily wishing to defend the banks, whose inherent loveliness may well be questioned, I still think there an element of caveat emptor, don't give a large sum of money to some anonymous person on Facebook with no due diligence.
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and in the meantime, the fraudster is still scamming people daily. I always said that I never understood how people can be frauded by Nigerian scams etc, but this one fooled me .... the guy is very clever and there are many people on facebook who have fallen for the same scam
This is totally different to a Nigerian scam though. A random stranger contacting you out of the blue and asking your help in transferring large sums of money out of another country isn't exactly something that happens everyday, whereas paying money in advance (was it rent or deposit? Not that it matters either way, the lack of distinction is symptomatic of the broader issue) to an absentee landlord is really rather a normal experience. One scam lures in the gullible with curiosity and avarice, the other works by blending into the background.
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This is totally different to a Nigerian scam though.
https://www.fraudguides.com/consumers/rental-scams/ (https://www.fraudguides.com/consumers/rental-scams/)
quote:
Nigerian Rental Scams. This scam is a variation of the two previous scams but differs in that it takes place on the internet and the scammer doesn’t need to be present and may never have been to the property. This scam is especially dangerous because it targets both property owners and renters. One flavor of this scam involves a crook finding a photo of a property and its address then posting them on Craigslist or other online rental websites hoping someone will be willing to wire them the first and last month’s rent, security deposits, and assorted fees (Sound familiar?). If you think no one falls for this, guess again. People are generally quite trusting and the ad will be so enticing that the potential renters will think they’re getting a bargain.
A variation of this scam is the classic Nigerian 419 scam. Someone will answer an online posting for a property and ask to pay by Western Union or an equivalent money wiring service. If the landlord takes the bait, and many do, the renter will “accidently” pay too much. The renter will apologize and ask for the extra funds to be sent back to them. If the landlord doesn’t wait for the payment to clear the bank and sends the money, they’re out whatever they send. That’s the scam and it’s very successful.
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It's a wonder the Nigerian embassy hasn't protested about so many scams being attributed as "Nigerian".
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It's a wonder the Nigerian embassy hasn't protested about so many scams being attributed as "Nigerian".
Maybe they did but no one opened the link?
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It's a wonder the Nigerian embassy hasn't protested about so many scams being attributed as "Nigerian".
Maybe they did but no one opened the link?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/28/the-true-story-of-the-fake-us-embassy-in-ghana
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Apropos of this scam, was interested to see that the bank will soon be an unnecessary part of the process:
Chat and pay: How social media is beating the banks[/quote]
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42237432). Social media companies know that if they can persuade people to do more transactions through their platforms it will strengthen the relationship with, and reliance on, their brands.
"All the big monster tech companies have a desire to inject themselves into every element of their users' daily lives," points out Michael Kent, founder chief executive of global money transfer app Azimo.
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Now I'm house-share hunting, I'm becoming aware of how much of this scamming is going on.
In 3 days I've been in contact with (or seen adverts by) 2-3 scammers. They might have been the same person. One looked legit and I exchanged emails before deciding they were a scammer.
All of them have had their accounts and adverts deleted from the letting websites (possibly as a result of my reports; I've had responses from the website fraud departments).
Nothing to stop them opening up another account, with new email addresses and trying again. All that will stop them is a modicum of savvy held by the consumers.