London 2017 World Championships - Gatlin

[LittleWheelsandBig]

LEE, if you take that approach, sports talent identification programs will massively prioritise hyperandrogenism for sportswomen. It is a proven winning strategy, just ask East Germany.

Regarding Gatlin, how many other dopers had repeatedly been banned?

[LEE]

LEE, if you take that approach, sports talent identification programs will massively prioritise hyperandrogenism for sportswomen. It is a proven winning strategy, just ask East Germany.

It may be a factor, in varying amounts, already.

My point is that nobody has the same genetic make-up, some people are born with attributes that make them more suited to some sports than others.  Who draws the line at how much testosterone is permissible?  Presumably there are women closer to that line than others.

High-jumpers are unusually tall and this could be due to a variety of growth "issues" which lend themselves to high-jumping. 
It's a fact that very tall people are "massively prioritised" for Basketball and Rowing.
Ethiopians and Kenyans have a natural advantage when it comes to endurance athletics due to their high-altitude birthplace and genes.

I accept it's a blurry world but I see it as a natural advantage, just as Afro-Caribbean body type is an advantage in sprinting.

When it comes down to it though, it's just a game.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

She is a she with the testosterone of a man. Most women can only do that by injections (doping).

Given that testosterone levels vary widely for both men and women, where, if at all, would you draw the line?  Or should sports move to divisions based on something other than gender?

They do, but when the IAAF put a testosterone limit in place that limit was 3 times the 99th percentile of testosterone levels in the female population.  99% of women (actually female athletes) have a testosterone level below 3 nmol/L.  The limit was placed at 10 nmol/L, requiring female athletes to take testosterone blockers to reduce it to within the allowable range. CAS overturned the IAAF's requirement because they didn't have enough data that it gives an unfair competitive advantage.

The IAAF testosterone limit seems pretty conservative.

I would have thought that East Germany and Russia could supply plenty of historical data for performance increases of sportswomen on steroids.

[Exit Stage Left]

I would have thought that East Germany and Russia could supply plenty of historical data for performance increases of sportswomen on steroids.

Heiko Salzwedel is probably the man for that. he took all the East German cycling data with him when he went to the Australian Institute of Sport. He was last heard of coaching Wiggo.

I think the ability to persuade yourself that you deserve to win at all costs is a genetic advantage. it's complicated by the money you can win, and the national prestige.

There are some athletes who you know would still be a self-centred bastard without the money and the prestige. Lance springs to mind. I think there's a certain purity in that sort of attitude, but I have no real admiration for professional sportsmen.

[Legs]

She is a she with the testosterone of a man. Most women can only do that by injections (doping).

Given that testosterone levels vary widely for both men and women, where, if at all, would you draw the line?  Or should sports move to divisions based on something other than gender?

They do, but when the IAAF put a testosterone limit in place that limit was 3 times the 99th percentile of testosterone levels in the female population.  99% of women (actually female athletes) have a testosterone level below 3 nmol/L.  The limit was placed at 10 nmol/L, requiring female athletes to take testosterone blockers to reduce it to within the allowable range. CAS overturned the IAAF's requirement because they didn't have enough data that it gives an unfair competitive advantage.

The IAAF testosterone limit seems pretty conservative.

I would have thought that East Germany and Russia could supply plenty of historical data for performance increases of sportswomen on steroids.

See also: Semenya's performance drop-off over the period in which she was taking testosterone-suppressing drugs.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

LEE, if you take that approach, sports talent identification programs will massively prioritise hyperandrogenism for sportswomen. It is a proven winning strategy, just ask East Germany.

It may be a factor, in varying amounts, already.

My point is that nobody has the same genetic make-up, some people are born with attributes that make them more suited to some sports than others.  Who draws the line at how much testosterone is permissible?  Presumably there are women closer to that line than others.

High-jumpers are unusually tall and this could be due to a variety of growth "issues" which lend themselves to high-jumping. 
It's a fact that very tall people are "massively prioritised" for Basketball and Rowing.
Ethiopians and Kenyans have a natural advantage when it comes to endurance athletics due to their high-altitude birthplace and genes.

I accept it's a blurry world but I see it as a natural advantage, just as Afro-Caribbean body type is an advantage in sprinting.

When it comes down to it though, it's just a game.

Genetic modification next?  Brave New World and all that..

[Mr Larrington]

Genetic modification next?  Brave New World and all that..

There was a riff on this in one of the "Red Dwarf" novels; Scotland fielded a goalkeeper who was little more than a solid lump of flesh the size and shape of the goalmouth.  And still failed to qualify for the World Cup finals