Drop-bar touring bike shifters quandary - Sora STI vs Dura Ace Bar Ends vs ???

[Torslanda]

Being deliberately controversial. The difference between v-brakes and cantis.

V-brakes work. Pull too hard the wheels lock. Finesse required, a skill to be learned.

Cantis. Pull hard and the bike slows down, pull harder and most of the extra effort goes into bending the brake arms and stretching the straddle cables.

This is dismissed by purists as 'modulation', to v-brake users using cantis it's 'why won't this bastard stop?'!

Wossa 'troll'...? 

[Polar Bear]

V-brakes with matching levers.

These will be more powerful than 'trad' cantis, but with the disadvantages that it is harder to get fat tyres out and modulation isn't as good.

That's an interesting perspective.  I have never had issues removing or replacing wheels with v brakes and fat mountain bike tyres.  Also, I find that I can use as little or as much braking force as required, even on a fully loaded tourer.  Each to their own of course.

[Oxford_Guy]

Being deliberately controversial. The difference between v-brakes and cantis.

V-brakes work. Pull too hard the wheels lock. Finesse required, a skill to be learned.

Cantis. Pull hard and the bike slows down, pull harder and most of the extra effort goes into bending the brake arms and stretching the straddle cables.

This is dismissed by purists as 'modulation', to v-brake users using cantis it's 'why won't this bastard stop?'!

Wossa 'troll'...? 

I didn't think you could use V-brakes with drop bar brakes levers? <confused?

BTW I only run 32mm Schwalbe Marathon Supremes on my Hewitt Cheviout tourer currently, and am unlikely to ever go above 35mm., if that make a difference

[DuncanM]

I thought Vs and cantis had differently located pivot points?

[jsabine]

Vs and cantis have the same pivot points - U brakes are different.

Vs don't work well with most drop bar levers (mini Vs are OK), but you can get levers with the appropriate cable pull.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Or you can use a Travel Agent device to alter the cable pull at the V-brake arm.

[Kim]

When deciding your course of action, be aware that the Shimano Dura-Ace SL-BS77 9-speed bar-end shifters are not very Dura. The critical Amazon US reviews seem to have the most information about this design flaw. (The positive reviews everywhere are written a week after buying the part.)

On the other hand, the 9-speed down-tube shifters are highly reliable....

what is weird is that (as I understand it) the guts of both levers are basically the same.    What I do know is that you cannot install the bar end levers without removing the lever and its bezel from the mount. The bezel ( a chrome plated zinc die casting) looks as if it will fit several different ways on the lever mount but in reality it will only fit on one way.

If you fit it wrongly, after a period of time the bezel will break and the lever will fail to work at all. At least some of the claimed 'design flaws' are undoubtedly due to bad installation. If the bezel fails and there is no other damage then a new bezel can be bought for a few quid. Talk of there being 'no spares available' is not quite correct.

I would like to get my hands of a set of failed levers to see if there is more to it than this (there might be). But so far no-one has come up with any for me to look at.

I've killed several sets of these shifters by mounting them on an USS recumbent bicycle (which means - in the absence of a sacrificial bell - the shifter is what hits the ground if the bike falls over, and is what the bike rests on if you lean it against a wall without first shifting to a position where the lever isn't sticking upwards).

The failure mode seems to be that the indexing detents are achieved by a cheesy plastic ring internal to the shifter, which cracks under pressure.  This keeps mostly working for a while, doing a passable impression of a gunky cable, but eventually spreads apart and the indexing goes to pot.  The lever generally remains usable in friction mode (though I did have a crash-damaged one that eventually lost its friction due to more extensive internal damage).


Since bar-end shifters are more commonly installed facing downwards on drop bars, the chances of mechanical damage are much lower.  Incorrect installation of the bezel causing pressure on the mechanism certainly seems plausible, if the installer hasn't read the manual or noticed that it's not symmetrical.


Anyway, after three rounds of replacements, I tried a set of Microshift BS-A09 instead.  These lasted several years of bike-falling-over-due-to-kickstand-sinking-into-muddy-ground and train tetris without problems, until I lost traction on some chutney and landed hard on the rear shifter (which, to its credit, still managed to index, even though it had become stiff and lost much of its aluminium to the road).  The A09 doesn't have the option of switching to friction mode, but my experience of the Shimano is that that won't necessarily save you long term if the problem is the shifter (rather than, say, a bent derailleur hanger).  Unlike the Shimano, the mounting bolt is responsible for adjusting the friction of the lever (there is no adjustment on the Shimano).  Subtlety and Loctite are required to achieve optimal feel and shifting performance - if you're gung-ho and overtighten it, the lever will stop where you release it rather than settling in a consistent position above the detent, and the indexing won't work properly.

[Oxford_Guy]

When deciding your course of action, be aware that the Shimano Dura-Ace SL-BS77 9-speed bar-end shifters are not very Dura. The critical Amazon US reviews seem to have the most information about this design flaw. (The positive reviews everywhere are written a week after buying the part.)

On the other hand, the 9-speed down-tube shifters are highly reliable....

what is weird is that (as I understand it) the guts of both levers are basically the same.    What I do know is that you cannot install the bar end levers without removing the lever and its bezel from the mount. The bezel ( a chrome plated zinc die casting) looks as if it will fit several different ways on the lever mount but in reality it will only fit on one way.

If you fit it wrongly, after a period of time the bezel will break and the lever will fail to work at all. At least some of the claimed 'design flaws' are undoubtedly due to bad installation. If the bezel fails and there is no other damage then a new bezel can be bought for a few quid. Talk of there being 'no spares available' is not quite correct.

I would like to get my hands of a set of failed levers to see if there is more to it than this (there might be). But so far no-one has come up with any for me to look at.

I've killed several sets of these shifters by mounting them on an USS recumbent bicycle (which means - in the absence of a sacrificial bell - the shifter is what hits the ground if the bike falls over, and is what the bike rests on if you lean it against a wall without first shifting to a position where the lever isn't sticking upwards).

The failure mode seems to be that the indexing detents are achieved by a cheesy plastic ring internal to the shifter, which cracks under pressure.  This keeps mostly working for a while, doing a passable impression of a gunky cable, but eventually spreads apart and the indexing goes to pot.  The lever generally remains usable in friction mode (though I did have a crash-damaged one that eventually lost its friction due to more extensive internal damage).


Since bar-end shifters are more commonly installed facing downwards on drop bars, the chances of mechanical damage are much lower.  Incorrect installation of the bezel causing pressure on the mechanism certainly seems plausible, if the installer hasn't read the manual or noticed that it's not symmetrical.


Anyway, after three rounds of replacements, I tried a set of Microshift BS-A09 instead.  These lasted several years of bike-falling-over-due-to-kickstand-sinking-into-muddy-ground and train tetris without problems, until I lost traction on some chutney and landed hard on the rear shifter (which, to its credit, still managed to index, even though it had become stiff and lost much of its aluminium to the road).  The A09 doesn't have the option of switching to friction mode, but my experience of the Shimano is that that won't necessarily save you long term if the problem is the shifter (rather than, say, a bent derailleur hanger).  Unlike the Shimano, the mounting bolt is responsible for adjusting the friction of the lever (there is no adjustment on the Shimano).  Subtlety and Loctite are required to achieve optimal feel and shifting performance - if you're gung-ho and overtighten it, the lever will stop where you release it rather than settling in a consistent position above the detent, and the indexing won't work properly.

My LBS (Warlands) warned my off using Microshift components (due to build quality/reliability concerns) when I asked them whether it was worth considering these instead of Shinamo offerings, though that was in the context of STI levers, not bar end shifters....

[Samuel D]

By the way, I fixed my link to the Amazon reviews upthread. I don’t know why Amazon uses different, incompatible links on mobile and desktop.

Are the Shimano SL-BS77 basically the same as the Dura-Ace 7700 bar end shifters?

Yes. SL-BS77 is the model number, not always specified by the seller.

Are they likely to be even less reliable than Shimano Sora STI shifters?

I suspect Sora STIs are fairly reliable. The 8-speed ones I had on a Trek lasted for a few years. They feel flimsy, have much plastic, and I don’t like how the brake levers operate (applies to all STI brake levers I’ve tried), but they were reliable for me. On the other hand, they were reliably sloppy, tempting me to waste much time at the barrel adjuster. The indexing has been better with down-tube shifters, although that’s maybe down to better, shorter cable runs. Sora STIs won’t fare well in a crash, either, although that’s mostly pot luck. If the workings get contaminated with dirty water or dust, shifting suffers and cleaning is hard or even impossible. My right shifter was never the same after I fell and ploughed a dirt road with it. When they go bad, you throw them on society’s heaped tip of consumer rubbish. Even Sora STIs are inexplicably expensive. Even Dura-Ace STIs are inexplicably plastic.

Other than reliability, what do you see as the advantages of down-tube shifters?

Reliability is attractive to me, as are:

• simplicity for its own sake and practical usefulness
• low cost (at least for the SL-R400 levers I use)
• light weight without the compromise in quality or durability that usually comes with weight-savings on a bicycle
• freedom to use whatever brake levers you want, for whatever sort of brakes you want, from whatever brand you want. I use the BL-R400 levers that Sheldon Brown called the best ever made
• shifters out of harm’s way when leaning the bicycle against a wall
• shifters out of knees’ way when out of the saddle
• separate shifters and brake levers so you only have to replace one or the other after crash damage
• friction front shifting. Indexed front shifting spells hassle and limitations for dubious gain
• no gear cables running up to the handlebars. This gives reliably free steering for no-hands riding, lower cable friction, and no need for SIS cable housing, plus easier installation and cable or bar-tape replacement
• elegance of appearance.

Some of these benefits apply to bar-end shifters too.

[mattc]

At least one Tour de France was won* by a guy with a RH STi and a LH downtube shifter



http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8168/7702857094_3830cbcf4c.jpg

(google suggests that Beloki used the same setup, but that doesn't mean it wasn't just for show )



_{*This asterisk should be self-explanatory.}

[Oxford_Guy]

At least one Tour de France was won* by a guy with a RH STi and a LH downtube shifter

http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8168/7702857094_3830cbcf4c.jpg


(google suggests that Beloki used the same setup, but that doesn't mean it wasn't just for show )

_{*This asterisk should be self-explanatory.}

 

[Samuel D]

Several high-profile racers including Ullrich and Pantani did that to save weight on mountain stages while allowing rear shifting with muscle memory, back before the introduction of the UCI’s 6.8 kg minimum weight limit in 2000 or afterwards when it was still hard to hit that weight. Nowadays it’s easy with carbon fibre and about €5000. However, for cyclists like me who would like a lighter bicycle but not at the cost of carbon fibre, low-spoke-count wheels, etc., down-tube shifters save a little weight while making the bicycle more rather than less reliable. It’s only one consideration among many but it’s in favour of down-tube shifters.

[Oxford_Guy]

By the way, I fixed my link to the Amazon reviews upthread. I don’t know why Amazon uses different, incompatible links on mobile and desktop.

Are the Shimano SL-BS77 basically the same as the Dura-Ace 7700 bar end shifters?

Yes. SL-BS77 is the model number, not always specified by the seller.

Are they likely to be even less reliable than Shimano Sora STI shifters?

I suspect Sora STIs are fairly reliable. The 8-speed ones I had on a Trek lasted for a few years. They feel flimsy, have much plastic, and I don’t like how the brake levers operate (applies to all STI brake levers I’ve tried), but they were reliable for me. On the other hand, they were reliably sloppy, tempting me to waste much time at the barrel adjuster. The indexing has been better with down-tube shifters, although that’s maybe down to better, shorter cable runs. Sora STIs won’t fare well in a crash, either, although that’s mostly pot luck. If the workings get contaminated with dirty water or dust, shifting suffers and cleaning is hard or even impossible. My right shifter was never the same after I fell and ploughed a dirt road with it. When they go bad, you throw them on society’s heaped tip of consumer rubbish. Even Sora STIs are inexplicably expensive. Even Dura-Ace STIs are inexplicably plastic.

Other than reliability, what do you see as the advantages of down-tube shifters?

Reliability is attractive to me, as are:

• simplicity for its own sake and practical usefulness
• low cost (at least for the SL-R400 levers I use)
• light weight without the compromise in quality or durability that usually comes with weight-savings on a bicycle
• freedom to use whatever brake levers you want, for whatever sort of brakes you want, from whatever brand you want. I use the BL-R400 levers that Sheldon Brown called the best ever made
• shifters out of harm’s way when leaning the bicycle against a wall
• shifters out of knees’ way when out of the saddle
• separate shifters and brake levers so you only have to replace one or the other after crash damage
• friction front shifting. Indexed front shifting spells hassle and limitations for dubious gain
• no gear cables running up to the handlebars. This gives reliably free steering for no-hands riding, lower cable friction, and no need for SIS cable housing, plus easier installation and cable or bar-tape replacement
• elegance of appearance.

Some of these benefits apply to bar-end shifters too.

All good points! Though, as you say, some of them would apply to bar-end shifters too. I change gears on the rear mech so often on my commute, though, that I think it having to reach down for every change would annoy me.

I would potentially be up for having just the front mech shifting on the down-tube, if going the STI route for the rear mech, though...

[Samuel D]

I change gears on the rear mech so often on my commute, though, that I think it having to reach down for every change would annoy me.

It certainly would on the first ride. You might get used to it, since changing gear with indexed down-tube shifters takes a fraction of a second and no discernible effort. Or you might change gear less frequently. Why are you changing so frequently anyway? Perfect tempo is for piano players.

But each to their own. I’m glad I can still buy high-quality down-tube shifters and separate brake levers at low prices. One day that will no longer be true, if history is any guide.

[Oxford_Guy]

I change gears on the rear mech so often on my commute, though, that I think it having to reach down for every change would annoy me.

It certainly would on the first ride. You might get used to it, since changing gear with indexed down-tube shifters takes a fraction of a second and no discernible effort. Or you might change gear less frequently. Why are you changing so frequently anyway? Perfect tempo is for piano players.

But each to their own. I’m glad I can still buy high-quality down-tube shifters and separate brake levers at low prices. One day that will no longer be true, if history is any guide.

Being able to buy good quality separate components certainly appeals, and gives more flexibility on braking and gearing options...

[Kim]

Anyway, after three rounds of replacements, I tried a set of Microshift BS-A09 instead.  These lasted several years of bike-falling-over-due-to-kickstand-sinking-into-muddy-ground and train tetris without problems, until I lost traction on some chutney and landed hard on the rear shifter (which, to its credit, still managed to index, even though it had become stiff and lost much of its aluminium to the road).  The A09 doesn't have the option of switching to friction mode, but my experience of the Shimano is that that won't necessarily save you long term if the problem is the shifter (rather than, say, a bent derailleur hanger).  Unlike the Shimano, the mounting bolt is responsible for adjusting the friction of the lever (there is no adjustment on the Shimano).  Subtlety and Loctite are required to achieve optimal feel and shifting performance - if you're gung-ho and overtighten it, the lever will stop where you release it rather than settling in a consistent position above the detent, and the indexing won't work properly.

My LBS (Warlands) warned my off using Microshift components (due to build quality/reliability concerns) when I asked them whether it was worth considering these instead of Shinamo offerings, though that was in the context of STI levers, not bar end shifters....

I can't vouch for any of their other products just that these seem more robust (if slightly more fiddly to set up) than the Dura-Ace offering.  I get the impression that other <9sp Shimano bar-ends are less afflicted, presumably due to less enthusiastic weight-weenie engineering.

[Oxford_Guy]

Okay, so I need to make a decision about what to do soon - these are my main options as I see it, though some questions remain:

A) Fit bar-end (or possibly down-tube) Shimano Dura Ace 9 speed shifters

Main Pros:

* Would mean I could continue to use my Shimano XT front and rear mechs (though might need to replace the latter anyway) and would work with a 22/32/44 chainset i.e. greater range of gear choices
* Would mean friction, rather than (potentially problematic) index shifting on the front mech
* In theory Dura Ace should be better quality(?) and provide better indexed shifting than Sora STI (though there seem to be some potential reliability issues with the Dura Ace bar end shifters...)
* Would mean I could use good quality brake levers of my choice, possibly even fitting V-brakes (which I think would fit on my Hewitt)

Main Cons:

* Less convenient shifting than Sora STIs
* Possible reliability issues(?)

Outstanding Questions:

1) Are there still genuine reliability issues with the Dura-Ace 7700 bar end shifters, if fitted correctly?
2) What brake levers to get (related to 3)
3) Should I switch to V-brakes (it's tempting, even my Brompton stops better than my unloaded Hewitt...), if so, which ones?
4) Can I obtain a 44T outer ring separately for my SLX crankset?

B) Fit 9 speed Sora st-r3030 shifters (possibly using a separate downtube shifter for the front mech)

Pros:

* More convenient shifting than bar end /downtube shifters
* Possibility of indexed front derailleur (not necessarily a Pro)
* Should be compatible with Shimano XT 9-speed rear mech (hopefully!)

Cons:

* Sora not as good quality as Dura Ace(?), indexed shifting not as accurate as Dura Ace bar ends(?)
* More complicated, more likely to go wrong?
* No choice of separate brake levers (or V-brakes...)
* Would either have to ditch the front Mech (and possibly the whole crankset??) for a Sora one or use a friction-shifting bar end or downtube shifter for the front mech
* Unsure about what chainset would be compatible with a Sora mech (e.g. is 22/32/44 even possible?)

Looking at this list of questions and uncertainties, and at the flexibility separate gear shifters would give me, think I'm veering towards the Dura Ace bar ends...

[Cudzoziemiec]

Several years ago I was given an old bike with downtube shifters. I hadn't used them for about 15 years, during which I'd used flat bar bikes with a mixture of Grip Shift and rapid fire levers. I was a bit apprehensive but found there really was no problem shifting at all; the only problem was when shifting while steering and hitting bumps all at the same time, but even that would have been less of a problem if the bike hadn't been way too big for me. Nevertheless, I'd stick with bagels for any drop bar bike I got now.

[Oxford_Guy]

Several years ago I was given an old bike with downtube shifters. I hadn't used them for about 15 years, during which I'd used flat bar bikes with a mixture of Grip Shift and rapid fire levers. I was a bit apprehensive but found there really was no problem shifting at all; the only problem was when shifting while steering and hitting bumps all at the same time, but even that would have been less of a problem if the bike hadn't been way too big for me. Nevertheless, I'd stick with bagels for any drop bar bike I got now.

"Bagels"??

[Polar Bear]

I suspect that bagels is an autocorrect on Cudzo's device.   

[Cudzoziemiec]

Bagels is an acronym invented or at least popularized by someone otp, though I'm afraid I can't remember who. Brakes And GEar Levers. A one-word term for STI levers that's not manufacturer-specific and avoids the fugly "brifters".

[mattc]

Sti Cons:

...
- How fecking UGLY they all are.

[And no, I'd never heard of "bagels" either.]

My current commuter has friction-shift DT 8sp; before I bought it I'd gone at least 5 years using purely brifters. I didn't find it a problem - but it is always a little weird switching between bikes.

By far the most annoying transition is between campy and shimano flavours of brifter - I can see why people get so puritanical about that difference 

[Karla]

Sora quality will be fine, it's better than Claris and even that is decent these days. 

You can do better though: Get Tiagra 9 speed STIs from SJS Cycles.

Your front mech is a non-issue.  Front mechs that will work with your gears are plentiful and cheap. 

Brakes: do yourself a favour and get mini-Vs.  Cantis are crap and should be consigned to the dustbin.  Tektro mini-Vs are cheap and easily available, and better than cantis.

Whatever you do, please don't get a pair of STIs and then one downtube shifter.  The style police will shoot you.

[tatanab]

Bagels is an acronym invented or at least popularized by someone otp, though I'm afraid I can't remember who. Brakes And GEar Levers. A one-word term for STI levers that's not manufacturer-specific and avoids the fugly "brifters".

A new one for me, and one I will instantly forget.  Since Bagels are round with a hole in the  middle I thought it might refer to the twisty ring control of a Rohloff, or a twist grip gear change.

[Brucey]

: Get Tiagra 9 speed STIs from SJS Cycles.

.....Brakes: do yourself a favour and get mini-Vs.

Not with those STIs; they have the wrong brake cable pull.