Future Classics?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Thinking back to the OP's mention of Brooks, how about the Charge Spoon?

[Samuel D]

I keep thinking of Strade Bianche when I see the thread title.

Regarding the Charge Spoon, I think that’s a long shot. For a start, the model will probably change or be pulled or the company will fold long before enough time passes to consider it a classic. And one reason for that is that it’s ugly. Classics have to be timelessly elegant or aesthetically distinctive in some way. That is a large part of their enduring appeal.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I don't know when either of them started production but the Schwalbe Marathon and the Thorn Audax both have that "always been around" aura.

[LEE]

Another vote for Rohloff.

It has all the collectible characteristics of a Swiss watch.  It's hand-made, in an expensive labour country, to a high standard.

Bromptons were a classic from day one for similar reasons and they are recognised by the general public (unlike Rohloffs).

Carradice saddlebags are classics for different reasons I think.  They have a quirkiness about them but I wouldn't ever describe them as high-quality.  The placement of badges and leather straps is bordering on random (They even sell "seconds" direct to the public with "stitching imperfections". ). Anyway, I have 3 of them and I love them but always assumed the Carradice factory was a rehabilitation facility for the blind.

All my bikes have Brooks B17 saddles.

My luggages of choice is Ortlieb and I think the Roll-tops are already something of a touring classic/legend (though I have Bikepackers at the rear).

There isn't much (anything?) that I can think of that will be worth 10x or 100x what it cost originally though.  The most that Carradice/Brompton/Brooks do is retain their original price.

Unless you buy limited edition Colnagos (The owner of my LBS does) then Bicycles & Accessories don't seem to have the same investment potential as exotic cars and Hermes handbags.

[Jakob W]

I think I'd describe Carrradice as high-quality but a bit agricultural; despite the occasional stitching infelicities they're made from solid materials, will last for donkey's years, and are a solid design that has had only the most minor of tweaks over the years.

Thinking about what makes for the longevity of a product/company, there must be a literature on this in rhe field of economic/business history. I suspect there's a Goldilocks size - small enough not to be the target of stock market/VC machinations, but big enough that they will survive (e.g.) the retirement of the founders. Thinking back to Carradice, I wonder if any of the bikepacking firms will be around in another half a century - Apidura, Alpkit, etc.

[Cudzoziemiec]

There isn't much (anything?) that I can think of that will be worth 10x or 100x what it cost originally though.  The most that Carradice/Brompton/Brooks do is retain their original price.

Unless you buy limited edition Colnagos (The owner of my LBS does) then Bicycles & Accessories don't seem to have the same investment potential as exotic cars and Hermes handbags.

Classics have to be timelessly elegant or aesthetically distinctive in some way. That is a large part of their enduring appeal.

Rolhoff?  They've always been very niche and as long as their prices remain that way, they're going to stay that way.  I doubt most cyclists even know what they are.

The great thing about classics is they're like standards.  And unless we get further definition from the OP, that's the way it has to be.

[zigzag]

imo, the whole cycling industry is way (decades) behind motor industry in terms of innovation and design. the way i see it is that a future classic is yet to be created - hopefully in the near future!

[Polar Bear]

If we're going for the very bling and lovely Rohloff speedhub then I also must ask for a special mention for the Schmidt SON nabendyno.   It has been a true revolution in efficiently and reliably providing power for bicycle lighting.

I used to dream of owning a bicycle with a SON at the front and a Rohloff at the rear.  The opportunity has probably passed me by.   

[Kim]

If we're going for the very bling and lovely Rohloff speedhub then I also must ask for a special mention for the Schmidt SON nabendyno.   It has been a true revolution in efficiently and reliably providing power for bicycle lighting.

That's probably more of a classic than the Rohloff, as it's not the only thing in its class.  There are plenty of perfectly competent dynamo hubs, but the SON definitely has the edge in pleasingly overengineered bling.

[Arellcat]

Blackburn btw are still going 41 years on and I see they're still making a rack that looks almost identical to the one I bought in the late 80s (and still have but no longer use cos the spacing is too narrow for modern bikes); it's called the EX1 now, I don't know what they called it back then.

I always knew it as the Expedition.  Any other pannier rack was made from chromed steel and weighed a ton.  The Expedition was what everyone bought for touring or commuting if you weren't a fan of saddlebags.

Touring could be seen to be the unfashionable yet dependable end of cycling, where quality equipment made with good materials and attention to detail is more important and desirable than on-trend colours and styling.  That we still have steel (frames), cotton (bags) and leather (saddles) says something for longevity and accepted standards.  I wondered whether Arkel (1988) has what it takes to go another 70 years.  In 1989 you couldn't move in a bike shop for Specialized Shoulder Holders and Cannondale Whistlestop handlebar bags, yet where are they now?

The original roll-top Ortlieb bag might have been a bike pannier, or maybe a dry bag for motorcyclists, or mountaineers, I don't know, but it's undoubtedly a classic, possibly even not the first of its kind but surely the one that ticked all the right boxes at the right time in the right market.

Bikepacking seems to have come of age, when before, frame-fit bags just weren't a thing, except in the dusty back pages of Encycleopedia.  Ah hae ma doots that Apidura will last, because they haven't really invented anything new, or pioneered anything in particular.  I like to think that Endura clothing might go the distance, though; the MT500 shorts were a super product that set a baseline for quality fit and material that lasted – in my case, is lasting! – a long time.

The Moulton double pylon bike is probably a future classic, for all its clever refinement and lofty price , and the company itself no doubt a household name that I think will carry on making posh bikes for as long as there are rich people around.

[Wowbagger]

If we're going for the very bling and lovely Rohloff speedhub then I also must ask for a special mention for the Schmidt SON nabendyno.   It has been a true revolution in efficiently and reliably providing power for bicycle lighting.

That's probably more of a classic than the Rohloff, as it's not the only thing in its class.  There are plenty of perfectly competent dynamo hubs, but the SON definitely has the edge in pleasingly overengineered bling.

Wouldn't you say that the Shimano Alfine is a poor man's Rohloff? It's trying to find its way into a niche market.

[Jakob W]

Aren't they more utility/city hubs than the Rohloff? IIRC Shimano don't recommend them for off-road or loaded use. Though as commuter hubs they're what, 20% of the cost of the Rohloff?

[Kim]

If we're going for the very bling and lovely Rohloff speedhub then I also must ask for a special mention for the Schmidt SON nabendyno.   It has been a true revolution in efficiently and reliably providing power for bicycle lighting.

That's probably more of a classic than the Rohloff, as it's not the only thing in its class.  There are plenty of perfectly competent dynamo hubs, but the SON definitely has the edge in pleasingly overengineered bling.

Wouldn't you say that the Shimano Alfine is a poor man's Rohloff? It's trying to find its way into a niche market.

Not really.  Even the Alfine 11 is significantly inferior performance-wise (fewer gears, less range, no direct-drive) to the Rohloff, whereas the SON's performance is similar-enough-as-makes-no-difference to the high-end offerings from Shimano and Shutter Precision (this is mostly by design; the electrical specification being standardised for good reason).  The difference is primarily one of quality, vis serviceability and expected longevity.

The 8-speed Alfine (and others, like the now legendary Sturmey 3-speeds) are in a different league entirely.  They're not even pretending to have a full mountain/touring gear range, just a low-maintenance solution to giving the average utility bike more flexibility than single-speed.  Sturmey 3-speeds are undeniably classic, but not for quite the same reasons as the Rohloff.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I think the Moulton counts as a classic already.

One thing that the OP's Carradice and Brooks have and that Moulton has too is that they manufacture their own products. That is, they have their own factories rather than outsourcing them. Thus they aren't dependent on anyone else's schedules and so on. Though how much longer that will be the case with Brooks now they're owned by Selle Royal, I don't know (see the point someone made up there about "Goldilocks size").

[Kim]

I think a large part of Brooks' marketing trades on them being cobbled together by Brummies with hammers, so I doubt that's going to go away any time soon.  They may end up increasing their range of badge-engineered products, of course, but since the badge's value mostly^[1] stems from that traditional image, they'd be unwise to abandon it entirely.

Like Brooks, some Carradice products (the non-cotton-duck stuff) are made abroad.  It's not an either-or proposition.


_{[1] I'm assuming the "these saddles hurt my arse less than the others" serious cyclist market is a minority of Brooks' total sales.}

[fuaran]

I like to think that Endura clothing might go the distance, though; the MT500 shorts were a super product that set a baseline for quality fit and material that lasted – in my case, is lasting! – a long time.

Endura have sold out to the Pentland Group. They will soon go the way of Berghaus, made in China and discounted at Millets/Blacks/Go Outdoors...

[Karla]

I think a large part of Brooks' marketing trades on them being cobbled together by Brummies with hammers

I'll look forward to Brooks saddle product placement in the next series of Peaky Blinders.

[Paul H]

Even the Alfine 11 is significantly inferior performance-wise (fewer gears, less range, no direct-drive) to the Rohloff,

The Alfine 11 was being touted as a Rohloff killer while they were still only a rumour.  Apparently Rohloff sales took a dip while people waited to see how it stacked up.  Maybe the day will come when something close can be mass produced, but the 11 isn't it.  The popularity of E-bikes might provide the incentive which hasn't been there before.

[Paul H]

Aren't they more utility/city hubs than the Rohloff?

I've always thought of my Rohloff as a utility hub, I like to use it for lots of other riding, but if it wasn't for the advantages it gives for day to day use I'd have stuck with derailleurs.
I laugh at the idea that they're expensive, the bike it came with (Including Son hub and E6 lights) cost the same a 9 month rail card, it's been used nearly every day for 14 years since.

[Kim]

Even the Alfine 11 is significantly inferior performance-wise (fewer gears, less range, no direct-drive) to the Rohloff,

The Alfine 11 was being touted as a Rohloff killer while they were still only a rumour.  Apparently Rohloff sales took a dip while people waited to see how it stacked up.  Maybe the day will come when something close can be mass produced, but the 11 isn't it.  The popularity of E-bikes might provide the incentive which hasn't been there before.

Nahh, a Nexus 8 level hub is perfectly sufficient for an e-bike.  You don't need super low gears to climb hills, and it's reasonable to assume a top speed not much beyond the 25kph limit.

The thing that e-bikes incentivise is the NuVinci CVT.  As with the Nexus, the gear range is sufficient.  When you've got the weight of batteries and motor being lugged by themselves, the heavy hub isn't a big deal.  Unlike conventional transmissions it *likes* being shifted under load (so you don't have to arrange for a mid-drive motor to ease off while shifting by tying the shifting into the control electronics^[1], or risk excessive wear on the hub by a mechanically unsympathetic rider).


_{[1] Alternatively, if you do integrate the shifting with the motor controller, you can do some really clever stuff.}

[Paul H]

Nahh, a Nexus 8 level hub is perfectly sufficient for an e-bike.  You don't need super low gears to climb hills, and it's reasonable to assume a top speed not much beyond the 25kph limit.

I was thinking more in terms of reliability, the two regular E-bike users I know are clocking up the sort of miles that is likely to eat Alfines. Both of them were keen cyclists before, but wouldn't have considered those miles without assist.
I hadn't considered the NuVinci, I know nothing about it other than the weight.  Reliable long lasting technology?

[Kim]

I was thinking more in terms of reliability, the two regular E-bike users I know are clocking up the sort of miles that is likely to eat Alfines. Both of them were keen cyclists before, but wouldn't have considered those miles without assist.

Good point.  Of course, you can buy quite a few Alfine 8s for the cost of a Rohloff, which makes it one of those philosophical questions.

I hadn't considered the NuVinci, I know nothing about it other than the weight.  Reliable long lasting technology?

Hard to tell.  It's sufficiently weird that bike shops frequently seem to make a pig's ear of adjusting it.

I rode a bike with one round a car park once and it seemed to do what it said on the tin, but I came across it more recently in the context of the (almost unobtanium) Harmony system while researching STEPS/Di2 integration with a disabled friend, and it seemed to have found a useful niche.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I think a large part of Brooks' marketing trades on them being cobbled together by Brummies with hammers, so I doubt that's going to go away any time soon.  They may end up increasing their range of badge-engineered products, of course, but since the badge's value mostly^[1] stems from that traditional image, they'd be unwise to abandon it entirely.

The Cambium, made in Italy, seems to be one of their most popular models, so I'm not sure how relevant the actual site of manufacture is compared to the perceived location of the firm's "identity".

Like Brooks, some Carradice products (the non-cotton-duck stuff) are made abroad.  It's not an either-or proposition.

Are those the Carradura range? I'm pretty sure the Carradry stuff is stitched welded together by people called Kelly and Sue. At any rate I'm pretty sure they sign the labels!

_{[1] I'm assuming the "these saddles hurt my arse less than the others" serious cyclist market is a minority of Brooks' total sales.}

Dunno... you rarely see a Brooks on a "non-cyclist's bike".

Finally on this topic, I offer the Silca Impero Ultimate frame-fitting pump. Currently available from Wiggle and CRC for £145. Click for review. Yes, £145 for a bicycle pump... but it's handmade by Italian artisans in a tradition that goes back to the 1920s, bringing you a link with cycling's Golden Age when cyclists were heroes, roads were dusty and mountains were there to be conquered, connecting you to the blood and sweat of Alfredo Binda, Gianni Bartali, Fausto Coppi, Tulio Campagnolo and indeed the firm's founder way back in 1917 in Milano, Felice Sacchi. A tradition that lives on, making Silca by 2013 the oldest company in the entire cycling industry to have been continually owned by one family; truly a labour of passion and dedication... Except that the company was then sold and moved to Indianapolis, where the pricey pump is made.

[Samuel D]

Dunno... you rarely see a Brooks on a "non-cyclist's bike".

In Paris they’re usually seen on fixed-gear atrocities that are so preposterously set up that it’s clear they’re not ridden far.

This doesn’t make them bad saddles. Obviously they’re popular among serious cyclists for their functional merits.

[Kim]

IIRC when a group of us did the Brooks factory tour a few years ago, they mentioned that they were doing extremely well in what amounts to the USAnian hipster market.  (People who value the aesthetic and craftsmanship over practical issues like saddle sores.)

They also sell a lot of saddles to OEMs.  Bromptons, Pashleys and so forth.  A B66 on a traditional city bike is as practical as it is aesthetically pleasing.  I think we'd see more Brooks on non-cyclists' bikes if the non-cyclists didn't mostly ride BSOs.

Of course serious cyclists use them, but they also do unprofitable things like keep the same one going for 30 years.