[HAMR] New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1

[simonp]

What is really required is a track recording device that can digitally sign tracks.

[Exit Stage Left]

Can a nonmember win an audax uk points championship?

You could get half those points on a moped though, it's not very intensively recorded.

[Bianchi Boy]

What is really required is a track recording device that can digitally sign tracks.

They can be fiddled as well. Computer security is a war. What works one day does not the next.

BB

[Exit Stage Left]

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

Guinness recognise an unpaced 24 Hour record from 2010 on a track in Brescia by Marko Baloh. That was officiated by UMCA. One of the three officials was Hoppo, if I recall correctly. http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/greatest-distance-cycled-in-24-hours-(unpaced)-/

Baloh won the UMCA World TT Championships last November with 502.1 miles. 24 Hour TT results in the USA are starting to approach those in the UK.
http://my2.raceresult.com/39343/results?lang=en#24_322C57

[Jack_P]

Agree that files uploaded to strava alone are not valid proof, even I could falsify them and I'm a numpty.
With the extra pressure to succeed that sponsors bring a tracker is essential proof.

[red marley]

From 1st Jan on this thread...

Is he live-tracking somewhere (Required under rule 7 of the UMCA HAM'R)? I see that the rules require at least one of heart rate or power readings, and as he has submitted power via Strava, that at least is covered.

Yes. He is initially using a phone app, but moving to SPOT soon. As soon as he does I will get him added to Trackleaders.

[mcshroom]

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

Kind of like every other cycling body. 

Bruce Berkeley signed up to the UMCA rules, so you might imagine he wanted to play by them.  He says it's their administrative error, so perhaps there's a discussion going on (Kurt argued with UMCA and won on one or two occasions).

It's possible. For whatever reason the UMCA have emailed crew chiefs it seems, but not chosen to make the information public. In which case I would have hoped all people trusted with that information would have sat on it until the UMCA decided to announce what they were doing. Pre-empting on Facebook is pretty disrespectful IMHO.

[mustgettaller]

It's possible. For whatever reason the UMCA have emailed crew chiefs it seems, but not chosen to make the information public. In which case I would have hoped all people trusted with that information would have sat on it until the UMCA decided to announce what they were doing. Pre-empting on Facebook is pretty disrespectful IMHO.

I agree. Hoppo clearly doesn't, and doesn't see anything wrong with publicising something which by intimation was not for public broadcast. Oh well.

[mcshroom]

It's possible. For whatever reason the UMCA have emailed crew chiefs it seems, but not chosen to make the information public. In which case I would have hoped all people trusted with that information would have sat on it until the UMCA decided to announce what they were doing. Pre-empting on Facebook is pretty disrespectful IMHO.

I agree. Hoppo clearly doesn't, and doesn't see anything wrong with publicising something which by intimation was not for public broadcast. Oh well.

Lets just hope it doesn't cause problems should Steve need to negotiate something with the UMCA later in the year.

[hippy]

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

Guinness recognise an unpaced 24 Hour record from 2010 on a track in Brescia by Marko Baloh. That was officiated by UMCA. One of the three officials was Hoppo, if I recall correctly. http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/greatest-distance-cycled-in-24-hours-(unpaced)-/

Baloh won the UMCA World TT Championships last November with 502.1 miles. 24 Hour TT results in the USA are starting to approach those in the UK.
http://my2.raceresult.com/39343/results?lang=en#24_322C57

They're somewhat limited because of the pit system the US use - you can't get handups from anywhere on the course.

Also, Marko has ridden a 521mi at the Sebring 24hr in the US and held both the outdoor and indoor track records (UMCA/Guinness).

[Exit Stage Left]

Marko was on the start sheet for the Mersey Roads one year. We were looking forward to see how he might do.

I did wonder if Bruce had fallen foul of the rule about unregistered support cars while riding with pro-teams on training runs.

[Greenbank]

What is really required is a track recording device that can digitally sign tracks.

They can be fiddled as well. Computer security is a war. What works one day does not the next.

No, there's a clear way it could be done so that it is very unlikely to be fiddled. Certain parts of computer security are quite secure. The question is how easily it can be subverted (for this it would be a question of who gets access to the private keys, and it's possible to limit that access quite but not perfectly well, but with little gain from doing so I doubt it would be much of a target, so it would remain quite secure and trustworthy.)

A device that cryptographically signs the trackpoints it logs would be very useful, and very very hard to spoof.

[mustgettaller]

No, there's a clear way it could be done so that it is very unlikely to be fiddled. Certain parts of computer security are quite secure. The question is how easily it can be subverted (for this it would be a question of who gets access to the private keys, and it's possible to limit that access quite but not perfectly well.)

A device that cryptographically signs the trackpoints it logs would be very useful, and very very hard to spoof.

Agreed - digital signing would be the answer - but needs buy-in from suppliers. In general, GPS devices used by cyclists (and most sportspeople) are for personal performance recording purposes, not validation, so the market for a 'secure' device which signs the output is pretty low.

[Greenbank]

If only this had been discussed years ago. Oh. https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=72887.msg1506127#msg1506127

[JonBuoy]

Do you mean this sort of thing ?  http://www.lxnav.com/products/nano.html

Unfortunately no HR data etc.

[Wowbagger]

There were, of course, the two alcohol-related issues about this time last year. There was the bottle of wine on LWaB's sideboard that had UMCA jumping up and down, and then there was Kurt's after-ride beers, which initially seemed to be in breach of the rules and then, subsequently, wasn't.

I don't intend this in any way to be seen to be having a pop at Kurt - it isn't. However, if the UMCa want to be taken seriously as an impartial arbiter of the annual mileage record, the they have to be seen to be impartial. If there is a problem with Bruce's challenge then that problem, in the form of the eqivalent of a first warning, should have been made public, along with any possible sanctions for future infringements. A straight disqualification with no warning is not in the nature of any sport that I am aware of.

[Exit Stage Left]

It's all very well knowing where the device is, but it's the rider we are interested in. Perhaps they should be 'chipped'.

[mcshroom]

There were, of course, the two alcohol-related issues about this time last year. There was the bottle of wine on LWaB's sideboard that had UMCA jumping up and down, and then there was Kurt's after-ride beers, which initially seemed to be in breach of the rules and then, subsequently, wasn't.

I don't intend this in any way to be seen to be having a pop at Kurt - it isn't. However, if the UMCa want to be taken seriously as an impartial arbiter of the annual mileage record, the they have to be seen to be impartial. If there is a problem with Bruce's challenge then that problem, in the form of the eqivalent of a first warning, should have been made public, along with any possible sanctions for future infringements. A straight disqualification with no warning is not in the nature of any sport that I am aware of.

If that's what has happened. All we have to go on are the not particularly informative posts of Steve's Crew Chief about a fellow competitor saying he's been DQd, and Bruce's team on Strava saying it's an admin error at the UMCA end. That's the problem with leaks, however 'on the pulse' the leaker believes their finger is.

[Wowbagger]

Indeed, if that is what has happened. I find it hard to believe that they don't know about Hoppo's leak. If it's true, they need urgently to issue a statement that deals with it and, if not, they need to slap Hoppo down very smartly. Otherwise, they look weak and ineffectual.

[Mr Larrington]

Did UMCA ever acknowledge Wilko's 541 mile 24 hr record?

If not, does that mean he didn't do it?

I am not a fan of 'members only' records.  We are all just individuals on a small rock
doing our best, whether in USA, UK, Australia etc.

I'd like there to be cross-recognition between competent bodies to make a world record
which was adjudicated by one body be accepted by another, if the rules are common.

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

The Brits are almost as bad though. Wilko set the End to End record on a faired recumbent and the Road Records Association doesn't recognise it, because apparently they don't recognise recumbents at all (same at Cycling Time Trials). This despite Wilko's ride being timed by RRA folk and being held under RRA rules.

The UMCA used to have limited recognition of existing records but that approach seems to have died out.

Some years ago I read that there was a plan to merge existing UMCA, IHPVA and RTTC (as it was then) records, but nothing ever seemed to come of it.  Currently there are issues getting IHPVA records recognised by WHPVA as the latter want details of the course survey and timing equipment certification and the former won't release them

Didn't some hippie radical come up with the phrase or saying "Politics is pigshit"?

[teamcinzano]

Here's UMCA's confirmation. It's not exactly forthcoming, and says nothing about what the compliance issue was:

http://www.ultracycling.com/wp_news/?p=967

Bruce Berkeley has been officially disqualified in his HAM’R attempt.   He was not in compliance with the rules when he started.  The UMCA gave him several chances to become compliant but he did nothing to avail himself of those chances. He never came into full compliance.

[Si S]

As Ham says, can only see it being live tracking, I wonder if he was relying on the Strava active friends thing for premium members and the UMCA have said not good enough

Be interesting to see what he does now.

[ElyDave]

How many days into the attempt was he, not many I think? 

Surely he has the opportunity now to get compliant, start again and call this a practice run?

[macnark]

From his Strava comment this morning, looks like he couldn't give a monkey's about UMCA

"In response to all this Rubbish from HAMR (who are not officiating on my record attempt!!) I'll just ride my bike, and hit the numbers again!"
https://www.strava.com/activities/472923073


Isn't Hopkinson on the Board of Directors of UMCA?

[zigzag]

Bruce has got enough exposure and previous track record to show what he is capable of and should not worry about umca validation. if he beats the record (and i wish him all the best) it will be there for the future competitors to aspire to.