Neutralised night sections over longer distances?

[MC Hedgerow]

Why don't you just organise the first one as a series of 200km DIY by GPS group rides with overnights in specified Holiday Inns or other, advertise it here and see what happens and how many turn up ?

Dry run, costs nothing to organise except a DIY entry fee, You don't need staff or venues, plus you get AUK points and you don't have to deal with the AUK admin machine either.

Not a bad idea.

[Delph Cyclist]

Nothing wrong with this idea at all, it just needs someone to step up to the mark.

Rides already exist along these lines.  I rode the LeJog as 7x200s, on my own and using budget accommodation (Travelodges and Youth Hostels) and it was good fun.  That could be ridden as a group perm - just tell people when you plan to ride and invite others to join you.  You can also ride Manche to Med as 5 x 200, or as a 14 day BP which you can do as part of a CTC Tour (but be warned it books up fast).  I'm not sure what happened to the Atlantic to Med trip but that was also available as a BP and a CTC Tour.  Hey, I even rode the 24 hour Mersey Roads Time Trial, sleeping for at least a couple of hours during the night, as I only "needed" to make up a 4 point ride for my SR.

Ever the innovator, Sheila Simpson has run her Plains 400 with a 2 x 200km option, which got you 4 points (but didn't count towards an SR).  That's not on the Calendar these days, and I think it attracted very little interest at the time (perhaps none!) but that's not to say it shouldn't be tried again.  From memory this 2 x 200 counted as a single event, you booked your own accommodation at Builth Wells, and if you abandonned half way you got no points rather than 2.

All it needs is someone to set up the ride, the AUK regulations and framework is all in place so you'd just need to contact the Events Secretary.

[Arry-R]

there we are. ....All the information you need so please get on and arrange.

 

[Bugloss]

You could take an established ride such as the Bryan Chapman or the best bits of it and dice it up into 200's or add a bit from another ride that fits.

There are plenty of popular long calendar events and it wouldn't be too hard to pick a good one that would fit your formula. You might want to ask the organisers permission first though, just to keep it friendly.

Then if you want to get big and bold, do a diagonal or a triangle. They seem to fit into that mould quite well.

Euro Grand Diagonale Copenhagen-Malaga, 3530km's plus a ferry in 421 hours = 17.3 days + 4 hours for a ferry = 204 km's per day. Ta-da!

Done it for you.

[vorsprung]

I like riding at night.  Some events are only possible because the A roads they use are deserted at night.

As for the "I think 200km represents a good, long day ride for a reasonably fit rider"  well, it's starting to be a long ride.  I'm not  fast but 300km in the summer is perfectly doable over mixed terrain.

Just because the current fad for sportives limits their ambitions to 200km is no reason to do the same.  Currently the longest "pro" event is the Milan-San Remo at 298km but in the past the TdF has had 400km stages

Other people are conceptually going in the opposite way to you.  The Transcontinental Race (only been around a couple of years) is against the clock from London to Istanbul, over 3000 miles as one stage.

[teethgrinder]

This was also suggested for RAAM once upon a time. The idea never went down very well amongst extreme endurance cyclists!
As mentioned, we allready have ways of not doing any night riding and the extra long events are only 200km a day for randonneur pace. Just needs an organiser. Good luck finding people with the time to commit.
I like the intense Audax style, including sleep deprivation because I don't have as much time for long rides as I'd like. Though if you get fast enough, 600s can be a nice weekend tour with a night in a bed.

[MC Hedgerow]

But isn't it clear by now that I'm not talking about attracting the sorts of riders who view themselves as viable contenders for the RAAM, Transcontinental or pre-war Tour de France! I'd like to encourage more of those who are being absorbed by the 'fad for sportives'.

[Bugloss]

I'm not a big fan of riding much after midnight as I've had some freakishly close calls this season, but I like a long ride and the BRM time limits suit me fine.

There are others, however who like 200km days and this format caters for them and the BRM format caters for the others.

Postie, Plodder, HK and LWAB along with Veloman and others rode The St. Germain 1000 BRM at 300km/day, slept in hotels any generally "lushed it up in style". I rode it at 330+ km per day and slept in my tent, Dr Gannet bivvied and the French guy that I rode with slept with a space blanket and no mat on the hard floor of the toilet blocks with the lights on. There are many formats and approaches to these rides, depending on your tastebuds and how challenging you want to make it.

[MC Hedgerow]

Interesting take on how one's choice of accommodation on such an event can be entirely determined by personal taste and budget, Bugloss.

I find some of the arguments presented earlier above - a) that there will not be enough accommodation in the locale, b) that some riders would be too stupid to read any instructions re their need to find their own digs, and c) that this is somehow contrary to the spirit of Audax - a little unconvincing. Most big seaside resorts have dozens of spare rooms outside of school hols and SW Manchester, where I live, has a lot of cheap hotel capacity away from United match days. Ride instructions would need to be clear and emphatic from the outset about the requirement for self-sufficiency in accommodation. And, given the amount of space on this forum devoted to discussions on motorway Travelodges ahead of big events, I'd have every faith in the ability of riders to sort their accommodation out and thoroughly enjoy doing so. Some seem to have every confidence in Auks to ride through the night on their own but assume their irresponsibility / ineptitude when confronted by the TripAdvisor website.

The biggest challenge presented, to me, seems to be the issue of kit carriage, i.e.without a bag transfer van, would riders be happy to be leaving on the morning of Day 3 in a bit of a stinky state or just get 'panniered up' and start to resemble the CTC?

[Exit Stage Left]

I'm editing up the film of the Mile Failte 1200 at the moment. For a fast rider it was as described in the OP, for slower ones less so.
I wonder if it was ever envisaged that riders would be so slow as to have the tiny amounts of sleep that those at the back of the field have, and I include myself in that group. Combine a wider range of abilities undertaking rides, with machinery such as Elliptigos, and with 'scenery inflation', and it reaches the stage where stage Audaxes become attractive.

A prominent local cyclist from Preston, Pete Ward, had the idea of an Audax style 'Tour of Britain' in the mid 1990s. It was going to be village halls and youth hostels. I remember the advert in Arrivee. He put a lot of work into it, but it came to nothing. Maybe the climate has changed, and the internet would provide a way of getting riders to commit. I suspect that published times would add to the attraction, Strava could provide that element I suppose.

[Bugloss]

My kit carriage for a 600-1500km see;

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1469983809925002&set=a.1469808483275868.1073741829.100007401914033&type=1&theater

Longer rides need washing powder.

included in my stuff;
Tent
Thermarest
Sleeping bag
Stove and gas
Tin mug, bowl and spoon
Spare shorts and shirt
Flip flops
Towel
Soap
Toothbrush
Tea and coffee bags
Clothing for a long ride
Some food for the day

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I find some of the arguments presented earlier above - a) that there will not be enough accommodation in the locale, b) that some riders would be too stupid to read any instructions re their need to find their own digs, and c) that this is somehow contrary to the spirit of Audax - a little unconvincing. Most big seaside resorts have dozens of spare rooms outside of school hols and SW Manchester, where I live, has a lot of cheap hotel capacity away from United match days. Ride instructions would need to be clear and emphatic from the outset about the requirement for self-sufficiency in accommodation. And, given the amount of space on this forum devoted to discussions on motorway Travelodges ahead of big events, I'd have every faith in the ability of riders to sort their accommodation out and thoroughly enjoy doing so. Some seem to have every confidence in Auks to ride through the night on their own but assume their irresponsibility / ineptitude when confronted by the TripAdvisor website.

I think you are reading things that haven't been written. Where has somebody written about the spirit of Audax?

You've already stated that this concept isn't aimed at those Audaxers who arrange accommodation for their long brevets. Personally, I'd be reasonably interested if the organiser recommended accommodation options each night and provided drop bags, otherwise I'd just ride the route myself on a date of my choosing, regardless of AUK validation.

Of course, I'm not the market you are aiming at. You want to bring in non-Audaxers, so should think about what they'd want in an event. Given the lack of popularity of putting luggage on bikes, drop bags would seem to be necessary.

[MC Hedgerow]

I could be tempted by something like this if the route was attractive, but it strikes me that "the participants would be expected to organise their own overnight accommodation in advance" runs a little counter to "the completion of a mutual goal with like- minded company."

[red marley]

I think the point being made there was that if you place overnight controls in locations sufficiently large to provide a range of easily organised accommodation options, the event runs the risk of fragmenting at night as each rider goes to their own digs. And as such there is a loss of some of the social aspect you get when everyone is bedded down in a scout hut. Nothing to do with the spirit of Audax as such.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

MCH, how does that answer my question? If I am doing something as a 'group challenge', I'd prefer the group to not be scattered to the four winds each evening.

[vorsprung]

But isn't it clear by now that I'm not talking about attracting the sorts of riders who view themselves as viable contenders for the RAAM, Transcontinental or pre-war Tour de France! I'd like to encourage more of those who are being absorbed by the 'fad for sportives'.

Here's how you do long distance rides for sportive riders

http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/

It costs £1600 for nine days accommodation, meals and baggage transfers and fully signed riding.

[Bugloss]

I think the point being made there was that if you place overnight controls in locations sufficiently large to provide a range of easily organised accommodation options, the event runs the risk of fragmenting at night as each rider goes to their own digs. And as such there is a loss of some of the social aspect you get when everyone is bedded down in a scout hut. Nothing to do with the spirit of Audax as such.

Exactly, and keeping everyone together is going to be like herding cats.

So you need to specify the accommodation and have it as the finish point for the day and start point for the next. That way all the riders will be forced to regroup each morning.

[frankly frankie]

I've ridden back-to-back 200s a couple of times, and found it much harder than a 400 straight through.

Longer variants sound rather like the formidable PAC Tours that have been run many times in N.America - typically I think nearer 300 than 200 per day, for several consecutive days, with support.  Ride, eat, sleep, ride. Notoriously tough trips.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

On the other hand, I've ridden E2E at 200km a day and generally find 400s somewhat harder. Having a snooze during the recent National 400 helped though. It probably makes a difference that FF was a much quicker Audaxer than I am.

[MC Hedgerow]

I think the point being made there was that if you place overnight controls in locations sufficiently large to provide a range of easily organised accommodation options, the event runs the risk of fragmenting at night as each rider goes to their own digs. And as such there is a loss of some of the social aspect you get when everyone is bedded down in a scout hut. Nothing to do with the spirit of Audax as such.

Exactly, and keeping everyone together is going to be like herding cats.

So you need to specify the accommodation and have it as the finish point for the day and start point for the next. That way all the riders will be forced to regroup each morning.

Why does the accommodation necessarily have to be the exact same building as the start point and end point? Why not a standard church hall type control in a compact population centre with a reasonable range of accommodation nearby?

Furthermore, the cats will inevitably always herd themselves together over a route of several hundred kilometres anyway.

[MC Hedgerow]

But isn't it clear by now that I'm not talking about attracting the sorts of riders who view themselves as viable contenders for the RAAM, Transcontinental or pre-war Tour de France! I'd like to encourage more of those who are being absorbed by the 'fad for sportives'.

Here's how you do long distance rides for sportive riders

http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/

It costs £1600 for nine days accommodation, meals and baggage transfers and fully signed riding.

Not sure that this is an ironic gesture of support for the concept or totally missed my OP re the ridiculous cost of the commercially-ran options.

[jsabine]

I like riding at night. 

Me too ...

[/quote]As for the "I think 200km represents a good, long day ride for a reasonably fit rider"  well, it's starting to be a long ride.  I'm not  fast but 300km in the summer is perfectly doable over mixed terrain.[/quote]

But 300k days back to back ramp up the challenge very substantially. I'm fine after the first, I'm flagging during the second and I'm shagged during the third.

But isn't it clear by now that I'm not talking about attracting the sorts of riders who view themselves as viable contenders for the RAAM, Transcontinental or pre-war Tour de France! I'd like to encourage more of those who are being absorbed by the 'fad for sportives'.

Sure, and 3 or 4x 200-250k is getting to be quite a long ride, doable over an extended weekend, and probably needs less recovery time on the day after. Certainly the mention of the Manche to Med somewhere up there^^^ has piqued my interest.

I find some of the arguments presented earlier above - a) that there will not be enough accommodation in the locale, b) that some riders would be too stupid to read any instructions re their need to find their own digs, and c) that this is somehow contrary to the spirit of Audax - a little unconvincing. Most big seaside resorts have dozens of spare rooms outside of school hols and SW Manchester, where I live, has a lot of cheap hotel capacity away from United match days. Ride instructions would need to be clear and emphatic from the outset about the requirement for self-sufficiency in accommodation. And, given the amount of space on this forum devoted to discussions on motorway Travelodges ahead of big events, I'd have every faith in the ability of riders to sort their accommodation out and thoroughly enjoy doing so. Some seem to have every confidence in Auks to ride through the night on their own but assume their irresponsibility / ineptitude when confronted by the TripAdvisor website.

However ...

Where many audaxes currently run accommodation *would* be a challenge. The WCW could not, AFAIK, have used Upton Magna and Belbroughton as primary overnight controls if riders were expected to make their own sleeping arrangements. Sure, changing it might not be hard (Shrewsbury rather than Upton Magna would be obvious) but it would be a change and wouldn't be the same ride.

I suspect that there aren't many current rides that could sensibly use big seaside resorts or SW Manchester: there are good reasons for routes to avoid the sorts of conurbations where there would be a wide choice of easily available accommodation - this doesn't, of course, mean that a good route would be impossible to design.

IMO, as I've already said, one of the attractions of multi-day rides is the chance to meet people you don't already know at the sleep stops. To me, a ride that said "we're stopping overnight at Whitstable, here's Trip Advisor, make sure you book a bed somewhere" would be enormously less attractive than one that said "we're stopping overnight at Whitstable, we've held 20 beds in the Blue Oyster Hostel, book one directly in the next fortnight or it will be released, though of course you can sleep elsewhere if you prefer."

(On the "spirit of audax" point, I was deliberately using your words, didn't say anything about something so nebulous as the "spirit of audax," and both Rabbit and LWaB have read it as I meant it - if I'm taking part in a group event, I don't want the group to fragment at the very points where I'd expect it to regroup to enable the social side to take place.)

I think the suggestion above ^^^ about setting up a trial run as a group DIY Tour de Travelodges is pretty sensible. If this is something you think there might be a market for, plan a route, pick a date, and suggest it here. Relatively straightforward to organise, no financial risk because you tell people to book their own rooms, and acts as a proof of concept.

(Oh, there's *always* someone who doesn't read the instructions, no matter how clear you believe them to be. Doesn't matter whether it's a conference, a wedding or even an audax, it's impossible to overestimate people's stupidity.)

I'm editing up the film of the Mile Failte 1200 at the moment. For a fast rider it was as described in the OP, for slower ones less so.

It's interesting to see the spread of control arrival times on the MF1200 website, even though the structure of the ride meant that overall times were actually in a relatively tight spread. Some riders (well, me at least) show remarkably inconsistent pacing.

(Overnight stops were Midleton and Killarney - days were roughly 3x350k + 150k.)

[Paul Rainbow]

There was a concurrent 400km event run in the UK only a few years ago if I recall. The "To the Manor 200km" and "From the Manor 200km", was possibly a Chepstow start then across Wales to the Pembrokeshire coast and back. I never rode it but a few club members did and it sounded like a great idea and quite simple.  I believe the Org saw riders off then drove to the overnight at a YHA or Hall etc in Pembrokshire with the riders sleeping gear and change of clothes etc.  Minimal controls needed as effectively two Darts.

I must admit even though not possibly in the OPs target group I have often thought the Bryan Chapman 600km divided up into 3 x 200kms would make a great event for those wanting to ride this legendary route but not able to handle a 600km straight.

[teethgrinder]

If you're looking for a test ride, I can plan something from Milton Keynes for late September or October.
Start from Milton Keynes on a Saturday. I suggest using The Anglian on the A17 near Fleet Hargate. Cheap rooms that sleep 3 with a kitchen, lounge and a cafe/bar on site.
I can plan two routes 2-300km for the Saturday and Sunday.
We could always have different starting points and meet at a control on the way.

[Bugloss]

I think the point being made there was that if you place overnight controls in locations sufficiently large to provide a range of easily organised accommodation options, the event runs the risk of fragmenting at night as each rider goes to their own digs. And as such there is a loss of some of the social aspect you get when everyone is bedded down in a scout hut. Nothing to do with the spirit of Audax as such.

Exactly, and keeping everyone together is going to be like herding cats.

So you need to specify the accommodation and have it as the finish point for the day and start point for the next. That way all the riders will be forced to regroup each morning.

Why does the accommodation necessarily have to be the exact same building as the start point and end point? Why not a standard church hall type control in a compact population centre with a reasonable range of accommodation nearby?

Furthermore, the cats will inevitably always herd themselves together over a route of several hundred kilometres anyway.

Having the suggested accommodation as the start/finish point creates a handy control and there will be those, like me who want their own accommodation. I don't like hotels much as they remind me of being away working, plus carrying a tent frees me up to stay where I please.

Not having a church hall type control on the first few rides takes away a load of admin for the organiser.

Cats don't do herding, especially the audax cats I've met. They tend to fragment into small groups or ride alone. So you need to force herd them at the beginning of each day to maintain the group thing.