Author Topic: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?  (Read 27708 times)

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #50 on: 26 August, 2014, 12:06:03 pm »
b) that some riders would be too stupid to read any instructions re their need to find their own digs, and ...

And, given the amount of space on this forum devoted to discussions on motorway Travelodges ahead of big events, I'd have every faith in the ability of riders to sort their accommodation out and thoroughly enjoy doing so. Some seem to have every confidence in Auks to ride through the night on their own but assume their irresponsibility / ineptitude when confronted by the TripAdvisor website.


I appreciate your incredulity at the notion that someone might miss something so clear and simple, really I do. However, I have witness this first hand. it happened on a two day group ride which had plenty of discussion and advice on and offline on the subject of overnight accomodation and booking your own.
We arrived in at the overnight town and congregated at a pub that had been nominated for the evening meal and had agreed to put all bikes in a locked shed regardless of where riders were staying. We adjourned to the bar for a quick drink and then most of us retired to our rooms or nearby B&B's for a quick check in and freshen up. When we returned, a couple in our party were "already" there chatting to the barman and one of the locals about the ride. Dinner was consumed, drink was drunk etc and conversation inevitably turned to the subject of heading to bed. The aforementioned couple picked up their panniers and presented themselves to the ride organiser and asked how to get to their room. Shock ensued that at about 10pm that not only did they not have anywhere to sleep but also had to pay for the meal they had just eaten.
I'd love to paint this couple as a pair of bumbling fools that they might appear to be but in reality they were a fairly smart pair who somehow had completely missed that this wasn't an all in jolly covered by the cycling club. One of the key things was that they didn't bother with the email discussion group for the club. Which leads to the point that for all that this part of YACF generally presents as a group of intelligent, well informed and hardened long-distance riders, we really are just the tip of the audaxing iceberg. And, to add icing to that cake, if a smart couple can collectively miss the glaringly obvious, imagine what a complete fool is capable of. And yes, the general collective of audaxing does have some complete fools in its midst.

You may not be convinved but evidence does show that it can, and will happen.

MC Hedgerow

  • I don't do emoticons
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #51 on: 26 August, 2014, 12:07:47 pm »
Jsabine- you have a fair point in that many long calendar rides do not start in places over-endowed with accommodation options. So, it might well be necessary for a prospective organiser like me to select a novel ride route (I could, say, have my riders out from Old Trafford and into unclassified country lanes within 30 mins).

Back to back 300s does sound a bit contrary to the concept (rather too similar to a 'traditional' 600km). So 2 x 200km or 3 x 200km seems, to me, right for riders who want a decent night's meal and sleep and to wake up the next morning feeling like human beings.

Having organised multiple conferences, training events and one wedding, my encounters with anyone who feels it is my responsibility to fix their accommodation have been scarce. If and when I do encounter such folk, I explain where responsibility lies. Are the circumstances in which this is likely to happen in a 'neutralised night stop' Audax any more likely than would be the case in a 'traditional' long event which starts early morning in a place where most riders would need to find a B&B or campground the night before (e.g BCM)?

Yes, a YACF group ride, is one way of testing the concept. This thread is another way testing the potential appeal. I think the question of how many love night riding (and can deal with the effects of this the next day) and how many would happily not bother with it is important.
'All my teachers have been women. Although several men have taken me aside for an hour to tell me things they know'

Martin

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #52 on: 26 August, 2014, 12:08:39 pm »
But isn't it clear by now that I'm not talking about attracting the sorts of riders who view themselves as viable contenders for the RAAM, Transcontinental or pre-war Tour de France! I'd like to encourage more of those who are being absorbed by the 'fad for sportives'.

Here's how you do long distance rides for sportive riders

http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/

It costs £1600 for nine days accommodation, meals and baggage transfers and fully signed riding.

yep much nearer the sort of price I'd expect (and comparable with the Overseas Raid tours)

I reckon someone (keeps hands down) could organise a proper sleep stop in a hall 3/4 day L-E tour for around £200 a pop, as long as you got a deposit up front in order to pay for the accomodation; and it would be an instant success

I suspect the biggest problem would be advertising it out side AUK

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #53 on: 26 August, 2014, 12:13:12 pm »

Here's how you do long distance rides for sportive riders

http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/

It costs £1600 for nine days accommodation, meals and baggage transfers and fully signed riding.
Not sure that this is an ironic gesture of support for the concept or totally missed my OP re the ridiculous cost of the commercially-ran options.

Sorry, yes I did miss your comment about 500 quid being "expensive". 

I wasn't being ironic: to run an event as you describe would cost a lot.  I'd see the "Deloitte Ride Across Britain" as being at the expensive but realistic end of pricing.   The reason that AUK events are cheap is that the development teams give their time generously and freely for months/years before the event and the volunteers running the controls give their time freely for hours / days during the event.  You may find the next LEL "expensive" as my understanding is that they are shifting some of the cost from development team time to entry fee.

If you want to attract the sportive riders to a long distance sportive style event then you may have to adjust your idea of what "expensive" is


Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #54 on: 26 August, 2014, 12:37:31 pm »
If someone was to suggest to me I could get a 600 badge by riding 200km 06:00 - 19:00; three days running, where do I sign up?

Martin

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #55 on: 26 August, 2014, 12:43:40 pm »
If someone was to suggest to me I could get a 600 badge by riding 200km 06:00 - 19:00; three days running, where do I sign up?

I think you already can by doing Blacksheep's dragony legendy Welshy ride, you won't get any distance points or an SR though

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #56 on: 26 August, 2014, 12:59:24 pm »
Given that you are looking at non-Audaxers doing the overall challenge, there is no reason that each day has to be at least 200km or that the total distance is x00km. A particularly hilly day could be 180km (a BP if you want a brevet card) and a flat day could be 250km. It is only AUKs wanting points that have a fetish for riding 200-and-a-tiny-bit kilometres daily.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #57 on: 26 August, 2014, 01:13:07 pm »
Nor would you need to insist on taking the most direct route, so you could use non direct roads which are often quieter.

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #58 on: 26 August, 2014, 01:15:29 pm »
If someone was to suggest to me I could get a 600 badge by riding 200km 06:00 - 19:00; three days running, where do I sign up?

Yeah me too.  Oooh sleepppppp......

There is no doubt room for the 3 x 200 km = 600 km event, however, I would still torture myself on the longer 'audax' condition rides to test my own personal audacity as well.  3 x 200 km sounds nice and jolly and rather like a fun tour which is great, but for me, I need that masochistic edge to prove to myself I can do it (and a badge to remind myself I have).  Fact is, the more it hurts, the more I feel like I have achieved something. 


Does not play well with others

Martin

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #59 on: 26 August, 2014, 01:20:46 pm »
I've done back to back 200s (to avoid having to pay too many ripoff camping fees in the US / Canada) followed by 100; and also a 200 followed by 4x100 in the UK;

both were much easier than a 400 / 600

Euan Uzami

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #60 on: 26 August, 2014, 02:33:38 pm »
Given that you are looking at non-Audaxers doing the overall challenge, there is no reason that each day has to be at least 200km or that the total distance is x00km. A particularly hilly day could be 180km (a BP if you want a brevet card) and a flat day could be 250km. It is only AUKs wanting points that have a fetish for riding 200-and-a-tiny-bit kilometres daily.

Nor would you need to insist on taking the most direct route, so you could use non direct roads which are often quieter.

Eureka!  :D

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #61 on: 26 August, 2014, 03:25:11 pm »
If someone was to suggest to me I could get a 600 badge by riding 200km 06:00 - 19:00; three days running, where do I sign up?

Yeah me too.  Oooh sleepppppp......

There is no doubt room for the 3 x 200 km = 600 km event, however, I would still torture myself on the longer 'audax' condition rides to test my own personal audacity as well.  3 x 200 km sounds nice and jolly and rather like a fun tour which is great, but for me, I need that masochistic edge to prove to myself I can do it (and a badge to remind myself I have).  Fact is, the more it hurts, the more I feel like I have achieved something.

7 x 200km from Land's End to JOG is a 'Jolly fun tour'.

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #62 on: 26 August, 2014, 03:29:22 pm »
If someone was to suggest to me I could get a 600 badge by riding 200km 06:00 - 19:00; three days running, where do I sign up?

Yeah me too.  Oooh sleepppppp......

There is no doubt room for the 3 x 200 km = 600 km event, however, I would still torture myself on the longer 'audax' condition rides to test my own personal audacity as well.  3 x 200 km sounds nice and jolly and rather like a fun tour which is great, but for me, I need that masochistic edge to prove to myself I can do it (and a badge to remind myself I have).  Fact is, the more it hurts, the more I feel like I have achieved something.

7 x 200km from Land's End to JOG is a 'Jolly fun tour'.

 :thumbsup:

This is indeed my plan - torture myself with the hummers version first, then do this at a later date for the fun factor :)
Does not play well with others

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #63 on: 26 August, 2014, 04:04:59 pm »
7 x approximately 200km per day is what we did a couple of years back for a LEJOG as a club run.  Never bothered claiming points or registering with AUK as some days we did less than 200 and some days we did more.  Nice comfy accommodation each night, carrying virtually no kit as we had support van for all our kit and start 0900 with 1900 at the latest finish, normally much earlier.

Don't have to be part of AUK to organise such an event.  Just find some mates and ride, or advertise on a forum.

A 1500 km event?  Just do 5 x 300 days like Postie on HBKH, might mean some riding in the dark, but not all night.

I would have thought a series of perms from Cheltenham or Tewksbury would be the ideal testing ground for such an event as 2 x 200 (or more), but gaining a longer BR award by such cumulative tactics would appear out of the question based on time if the need for sleep/comfort, and a lack of audaciousness, prevents someone from riding a longer distance than 200.  I'm afraid that's life and that is why those that complete an SR are such special people!

Euan Uzami

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #64 on: 26 August, 2014, 04:42:04 pm »
I personally would have thought one of the benefits of organising your own accomodation each night is the ability for it to be in a different place, and thus for the whole route to be one big loop (or even A-B line) than a series of several loops returning to the same place each night.
Rides longer than (but not including) 600km have to either return to the same place each night, or be X-rated. Otherwise you would need multiple halls, and that is something only the likes of PBP (and LEL) can really do.

Personally for me, back to back 200s start getting harder at the end of day 3. 3 days worth I can do at a good, normal 200 pace, but by the end of day 3 I start slowing down to nearer 12 hours than 10. I suspect it would plateau, but on that particular tour I decided to start doing slightly less km per day.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #65 on: 26 August, 2014, 05:58:39 pm »
But isn't it clear by now that I'm not talking about attracting the sorts of riders who view themselves as viable contenders for the RAAM, Transcontinental or pre-war Tour de France! I'd like to encourage more of those who are being absorbed by the 'fad for sportives'.

Here's how you do long distance rides for sportive riders

http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/

It costs £1600 for nine days accommodation, meals and baggage transfers and fully signed riding.
I was very tempted by the Hummers End-to-End, but now I find that
Quote
D******e Ride Across Britain is the ultimate way of riding the legendary ‘End to End’.
I'm so glad I clicked through.

This event shows the nature of the competition. First (and most significant) is the price difference.
As observed upthread, this is entirely down to volunteers vs money-making. To get the spirit nature of Audax, a big part is appreciating the volunteer ethos. I suspect very few riders customers on this "ultimate" journey are worried about such things.

2ndly, there is still a distance gap. They're riding 107miles a day - this thread is (mainly) about riding 130. A small difference? Not when you add in the benefits of full support. No luggage, feed stations (and I believe this event provides peleton captains). And people love route signage.
I do genuinely believe there is a conceptual step-up from the hundred-mile mark. Optimistic hat - more riders on more events are riding further. But it's a tiny increase. The most popular events are a day out of 60-100miles, and are a long way from self-sufficiency.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #66 on: 26 August, 2014, 06:38:17 pm »
Quote
D******e Ride Across Britain is the ultimate way of riding the legendary ‘End to End’.
I'm so glad I clicked through.

This event shows the nature of the competition.

As you note, price, distance and ethos are subtly different.

This event comes complete with 8 closely typed pages of rules and regulations, including prohibitions on deviating from the signed route, taking food and drink from anyone other than other participants while moving and an absolute ban on "intoxicants of any kind." I can understand that they don't want pissed-up riders - but they're banning a beer or a glass of wine with the evening meal. And if you drop out, even nine months before, the cancellation fee starts at £250.

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #67 on: 26 August, 2014, 06:51:22 pm »
Well they get 1000 riders each year, so they're doing something right.

Personally, I'd be more than happy to drop that sort of wedge on a 9 day supported ride with bag drops etc., just not in Britain! Supported raid Pyrenean etc. is about a grand without flights.

There is a small crossover potential - but it is small.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

MC Hedgerow

  • I don't do emoticons
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #68 on: 26 August, 2014, 06:57:59 pm »
How the pros and cons of participating in a commercial LEJOG, with far fewer concessions to personal responsibility and self sufficiently, applies to a proposal to run a 3 or 2 x 200km event under Audax auspices (with the tweak that night stops are the responsibility of riders) beats me.
'All my teachers have been women. Although several men have taken me aside for an hour to tell me things they know'

Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #69 on: 26 August, 2014, 06:59:39 pm »
How the pros and cons of participating in a commercial LEJOG, with far fewer concessions to personal responsibility and self sufficiently, applies to a proposal to run a 3 or 2 x 200km event under Audax auspices (with the tweak that night stops are the responsibility of riders) beats me.

You're new to herding cats, aren't you?

MC Hedgerow

  • I don't do emoticons
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #70 on: 26 August, 2014, 07:02:57 pm »
How the pros and cons of participating in a commercial LEJOG, with far fewer concessions to personal responsibility and self sufficiently, applies to a proposal to run a 3 or 2 x 200km event under Audax auspices (with the tweak that night stops are the responsibility of riders) beats me.

You're new to herding cats, aren't you?
?
'All my teachers have been women. Although several men have taken me aside for an hour to tell me things they know'

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #71 on: 26 August, 2014, 07:05:35 pm »
my friend (who is not a regular cyclist) is doing this supported e2e in two weeks time; i'll ask him how it was. i'm sure he'll enjoy it!

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #72 on: 26 August, 2014, 07:09:35 pm »
My predictable angry knee-jerk response to a recent post. Read if you want an argument! :
(click to show/hide)


Moving on ...
I think this is a very promising topic. It relates to my dislike of extreme sleep-deprivation, and links into attracting more riders to "proper" long distances.
IMHO the OP needs to modify his plan if it is to fly, but ultimately until someone fronts up and actually tries running something new, we will never know what is viable.

[I also think this is exactly the sort of topic that belongs in the AUK forum, so I'm a little suspicious of the OP's motives to post anonymously  :-\  ]

p.s. I also know a rider on the "ultimate" event! She's perfectly nice, and seems more than capable of doing it - or indeed of riding PBP/LEL etc, should she be bothered.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Neutralised night sections over longer distances?
« Reply #74 on: 26 August, 2014, 07:23:16 pm »
Hey, how do you do that show/hide thing? I like that.
No need to be embarassed - it took me ages to find it ;)

It's the "radioactive" icon. Or at least it is in my "normal" Windows/Firefox view of YACF.

(or you can just cut-n-paste the spoiler tags from my post!)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles