Raven Sport Tour owner - should I buy another bike for Audax rides?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Do some research on composite delamination. Then you might see where that (conservative) advice/ rule of thumb came from.

[Banjo]

With carbon forks being almost universal on road bikes seems pointless worrying about using carbon for the frame.

Any bike can be broken if you try hard enough.

Back to the op , I would do some 100 and 200s on the bikes you have first and see how you get on .I have two similar bikes to you a Jamis tourer which is extreme comfort but heavy on hills and a less comfy but lighter Scott Speedster.I use one or the other depending on the route and how my mood takes me.

I have seen people on mountain bikes , folders and all sorts successfully doing 100 and 200 audax rides.

[Euan Uzami]

Do some research on composite delamination. Then you might see where that (conservative) advice/ rule of thumb came from.

Oh I appreciate there's science behind it and that's why the rule exists - it's just quite...convenient, shall we say, for the manufacturers that it does exist.
I wonder what the 'standard advice' would be, and how much keener they would be to examine it, if there was a rule that they had to pay for it.

Just like it's quite convenient for airports' airside shops, volvic plc, etc that you aren't allowed to take liquids on planes.

[LEE]

Ask Drew Buck about what bikes are suitable for long Audaxes.


...no don't.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It is quite possible to do NDT to composites, usually giving an good indication whether there is actually a problem. Still no certainty, of course.

[bikey-mikey]

My Felt F1 was deemed to be too damaged to risk riding, following my major accident.....

Examined by the manufacturers agent, and after advice from very trusted LBS owner, who used to work in composites for one of the big Bristol airplane manufactureres, and you cannot see a thing wrong with it...

I could sell it and say nowt, but I just can't do that to someone, so it is going on the wall, as a 'decoration' and reminder of my old life....

[pdm]

Back to the original topic.
In order of importance, IMHO:  Fit, Comfort, Stability, Weight.
If the bike fits you well, it is usually a good way to being comfortable and so on.
The price of the beast merely increases each of these factors toward the optimum.
For a given sum, I would choose fit and comfort over weight any day.
If you have the money (lots!), get a made to measure, very lightweight steel frame, slightly relaxed geometry bespoke bike with durable lightweight components (~Ultegra level). You mentioned Paul Hewitt: A Hewitt Alpine Audax may well fit the bill but at about £1350 for a custom built Columbus Life frame it can be pricey. (+£100 more for Columbus Spirit - saves a few more grammes)

[Fab Foodie]

To the OP
I'm not an experienced Audaxer but have put many rides up to 150 miles under my belt on an Aluminium framed Carbon forked 2004 Giant TCR1.
It's been mostly fine.  The weight, gearing and comfort was acceptable, it was fastish.  I could fit a saddlebag and bar-bag for extra luggage capacity, but mudguards were a real compromise.
I'm now waiting for a custom built Reynolds 853 framed Audax bike from Rourke which I'm hoping will make longer distances just a little bit more pleasant.
Whilst the Giant was OK it was compromised in tyre choice (25c just), mudguard choice (cruds/Raceblades only) and lost most of it's magic when saddlebagged and bar-bagged.  Whilst good for hooning around the fast-bike riding position started to wear as the distances increased.  For me it was a good fast summer bike too compromised.



The Rourke still has potential to be light (not quite Carbon lightness) slightly racey and fun (remove guards, stick on my summer lightweight wheels if desired), but will take 28C tyres, full guards and be more stable with a load.  It will be more comfortable.  It will have a dynohub with USB charging.  It will have extra bottle cages (one for a hip flask of course).  It will have a very slightly more upright riding position.  It will have slightly lower gearing than the Giant.  It's also custom made with everything as I would like it:  DT shifters, cable routings, handlebar shape, brake lever shape/comfort, colour etc.

http://www.rourke.biz/custom_framesets.php

Take a look in the gallery (or maybe don't).

Now, that seems an ideal compromise ... Giant for summer giggles, Rourke for Audaxy/Wintery stuff.  Well it didn't work out that way!  The Giant got cannabalised for the Rourke and my summer fun bike is an '82 Holdsworth with my lightweight summer wheels and tyres - whilst heavier than the Giant it was just so much fun to ride!

[LEE]

I read the original post again and noticed that you'd already answered your own question.

I've always wanted to get a proper bike fitting, and plan a trip to Paul Hewitt's shop soon for that. I'm trying to make that an excuse to buy another bike specifically for Audax.

I don't see any point trying to point you at anything more suitable for Audax than a properly fitted Hewitt.

What I would advocate are some test rides though, regardless of bike type or manufacturer.  I recently bought a TREK ("sportive style") bike after spending the previous 12 months deciding I was going to buy a similar GIANT.  I went to the shop, they put the GIANT on a turbo-trainer and set about adjusting it to fit.  All well and good.  I took it for a test ride and it felt fine and dandy.

When I got back from the short test ride the shop owner was stood in the doorway with the TREK.  "Take this for a spin" he said, "we set it up about the same". 
Within 50 yards I'd changed my mind.  It just felt better, noticeably, much better..  We took it back to the shop, fine-tuned the set up a little and I signed on the dotted line.

No amount of setting up or customisation will make a bike as nice as a bike that feels inherently nicer for you in the first place.

The GIANT was "Bike of the Year 2013" so several expert preferred it over the TREK when they rode it.  I didn't.  (Although the TREK was in the top 5).

It just goes to prove that it all comes down to the ride as much as a perfect, customised, fit.  Check with Hewitts that they have some demo bikes, in your approximate size, you can take for a spin.

[Pete Mas]

Apart from Hewitt's , what other suppliers of bespoke high quality steel-framed audax bikes could be considered. E,g. Rourke, Condor,  as above, and are Mercian still considered good these days? As well as quality of the actual bikes, I guess quality of the actual service received from the shops  is also very important, and waiting list times, etc.

[alotronic]

I've been looking round and the sensible cost options are: Hewit Alpine 631/£425, Spa Audax Steel 725/£315, Genesis Equilibrium 725/£399 and for real cheap the Ribble 520/Silly cheap can't be bothered to look. I don't think anything made with 4130 counts personally, which rules out the IMHO over-rated Surlys. Salsa make better frames but are overpriced in UK and not many of them have mudguards.

For serious money well things open out a lot! New school Enigmas, Shands, Burls et al and old-school Custom Hewitt or Rourke or Matthews or Mercian or Roberts but these are all £1000 plus options.

The location factor is important I think - if you want a fitting and you live in London  then the £600 condor wants for a fratello off the peg frame (ouch) starts to seem ok if you factor in a rail ticket to see Hewitt!

At the moment I am inclined towards a stock cheap Hewitt (without a fitting).

One way to make sure your next frame is in the right area is to play with www.bikecad.ca - as if you needed more excuses to waste time on dreaming about bikes!

To OP: Give us a review of your Hewitt experience too, that would be great!

[pdm]

You can have the fitting and use an off the peg frame if it can be made to fit - most can. Both my SO and a friend were both fitted and off the peg frames were usable.
When I went for my fitting, the off the peg frame of the version I wanted was just too small (being on the tallish side).
Most fitters will do the fitting for "free" if you buy a bicycle (off the peg adjusted for fit or bespoke) from them.

[Euan Uzami]

I got a fitting off Hewitt's years ago and was charged 25 which was refundable if I bought a bike from them (I never did).
I found the results a good starting point but not perfect, I fine tuned it with experience. In particular I found he recommended to have the saddle as high as possible, possibly a bit higher than I now tend to have it.
He did however awake me to having the saddle quite far forward which I've since stuck with and can't abide by it being too far back now.

[alotronic]

While we're here - a handy list of English frame builders - hours of fun...

http://www.lfgss.com/conversations/133119/

[Steeplechasing]

My thanks, once more, to all who offered advice. That Bikecad site is something else

I'm rethinking now and have entered my first event for 28 October at Galashiels (I live in Scotland) the impressively named Ride of the Valkyries. I'll do it on the Raven and at least I'll have some experience then on which to make a decision. 

I'm not at all technical and find it hard to understand the intricacies of the physics of cycling. I read somewhere that 80% of a cyclist's energy is consumed by drag. That I can undersatnd - although it did surprise me - but the more I read a about rolling resistance, tyre pressures. ideal foot placement etc. the faster my head spins. There used to be a saying in horse racing 'a pound on the foot is a stone on the back', and I'm getting the impression that although drag counts for so much, there might be some relationship in cycling to the horsey belief, possibly linked to rolling resistance.

Of course, a wheel, unlike a hoof, is not constantly having to be lifted/dropped, but it did make me think.  (I'm rambling now...)I'm not that interested in learning every tiny aspect/theory, am just generally curious.

I once rode from Liverpool to Glasgow on the Raven, but it was fully laden, so I can't get any real comparison to how it might feel with just a saddlebag. That ride was meant to be a holiday. It took me five days, and I think even if I'd been trying, and not treating it as a holiday, it would still have taken me five days!

Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes. If you haven't yet dozed off...good night.

Joe

[Steeplechasing]

I read the original post again and noticed that you'd already answered your own question.

I've always wanted to get a proper bike fitting, and plan a trip to Paul Hewitt's shop soon for that. I'm trying to make that an excuse to buy another bike specifically for Audax.

I don't see any point trying to point you at anything more suitable for Audax than a properly fitted Hewitt.

What I would advocate are some test rides though, regardless of bike type or manufacturer.  I recently bought a TREK ("sportive style") bike after spending the previous 12 months deciding I was going to buy a similar GIANT.  I went to the shop, they put the GIANT on a turbo-trainer and set about adjusting it to fit.  All well and good.  I took it for a test ride and it felt fine and dandy.

When I got back from the short test ride the shop owner was stood in the doorway with the TREK.  "Take this for a spin" he said, "we set it up about the same". 
Within 50 yards I'd changed my mind.  It just felt better, noticeably, much better..  We took it back to the shop, fine-tuned the set up a little and I signed on the dotted line.

No amount of setting up or customisation will make a bike as nice as a bike that feels inherently nicer for you in the first place.

The GIANT was "Bike of the Year 2013" so several expert preferred it over the TREK when they rode it.  I didn't.  (Although the TREK was in the top 5).

It just goes to prove that it all comes down to the ride as much as a perfect, customised, fit.  Check with Hewitts that they have some demo bikes, in your approximate size, you can take for a spin.

Lee, was it a Domane you bought?

Thanks
Joe

[LEE]

A Domane 4.3.  I absolutely love it.

I'm now seriously considering it for PBP2015 in preference to my Condor Fratello (which I used in 2011).

Comfort levels are very similar, due to the ISOspeed Decoupler, but the Domane is just inherently faster.
It doesn't however have a granny ring.  Not a problem on PBP but a serious problem on some big Audaxes I have in plan.

[jsabine]

Of course, a wheel, unlike a hoof, is not constantly having to be lifted/dropped, but it did make me think. 

No, but it does have to be spun and accelerated/decelerated - rotating weight is often held to be worth twice(ish) static weight, so some way from a pound/stone relationship but still the same idea. (And this element is about rotating weight not rolling resistance: although heavier tyres are likely to have greater rolling resistance, that's generally because they're less flexible rather than directly related to weight.)

Lighter rims and tyres can make a bike feel faster, especially if there's a lot of stop/start or a good bit of climbing - the weight becomes less relevant compared to the aerodynamics the higher the speed, especially if it's a constant high speed.

I'm rethinking now and have entered my first event [...] I'll do it on the Raven and at least I'll have some experience then on which to make a decision.

Seems sensible. Do this one, experiment. Position, luggage, saddle, anything you can think of might be worth tweaking. Do another couple, experiment. By this time you'll either have a much better idea of what you want, or a whole new list of questions. (Or both.)

[LEE]

Their seems to be a move from 23mm to 25mm tyres on road bikes lately.

Tyre size, tyre pressure and tyre weight is an area full of argument and counter argument though.  Lab testing does not provide good data for flinty, top-dressed, Wiltshire lanes.

My advice is to go for comfort & puncture-protection.  Aerodynamics won't be your prime concern at Audax speed, but fixing your 3rd flat, in the dark, can seriously affect your mood.
Skinny, high-pressure, tyres work well on smooth tarmac but their performance is compromised, more so than, say, a 25mm tyre, by a rough surface.

I've used 23, 25 and 28mm tyres on my Audax bike and finally opted for 25mm.
I use Schwalbe tyres but most of the riders in my club use Conti Gatorskins/4 Seasons with great success on our flinty lanes.

The TREK Domane comes with 25mm as do most of its competitors now.

Note. Everything I said above about tyre performance may be 100% wrong.

[teethgrinder]

My advice is to go for comfort & puncture-protection.

Up to a point, yes.

I tested some tyres doing 220 miles a day over a very wet Christmas holiday.
It was considerably faster (measuarble in hours) for me to get a puncture every 100 miles on my lighter weight tyres than it was to ride puncture free on Marathon Plus.
There must be a balance point somewhere inbetween.

I've just gone tubeless for the best of both worlds, though I have had to stop and keep pumping up my tyre and waiting for the sealant to take effect when I got a nasty cut (would have probably finished a tubed tyre) on my way to Flatlands 600. It held for the event and is still going well.

[bikey-mikey]

All this talk of steel??   

Modern rubbish....   

It'll be sure to rust within hours, and one good pothole and it'll bend a bit, so you won't be able to ride straight!! 

You can't beat a good proper frame made out of bronze....  Nowt wrong with that - the Bronze age is not old fashioned rubbish... 

In fact if I could afford it I'd go back even further and get one from The Ice Age - the frames were really cooool, (being made of ice), and although they didn't last very long if the temperature was above minus 60 degrees, they were fine in typical British Autumn Audax weather.... 

[Bledlow]

I've been looking round and the sensible cost options are: Hewit Alpine 631/£425, Spa Audax Steel 725/£315, Genesis Equilibrium 725/£399 and for real cheap the Ribble 520/Silly cheap can't be bothered to look. I don't think anything made with 4130 counts personally, which rules out the IMHO over-rated Surlys.

4130? I remember when to get that you had to buy a utility bike or low end 'sports' bike. But back then anything labelled '4130' in this country was plain gauge, & it got a bad name as a result. AFAIK it's a perfectly good cro-mo formulation, & if properly treated can be turned into excellent tubes.

[Euan Uzami]

All this talk of steel??   

Modern rubbish....   

It'll be sure to rust within hours, and one good pothole and it'll bend a bit, so you won't be able to ride straight!! 

You can't beat a good proper frame made out of bronze....  Nowt wrong with that - the Bronze age is not old fashioned rubbish... 

In fact if I could afford it I'd go back even further and get one from The Ice Age - the frames were really cooool, (being made of ice), and although they didn't last very long if the temperature was above minus 60 degrees, they were fine in typical British Autumn Audax weather.... 

Christ - get you with your fancy modern materials! I've been riding around on a STONE frame for the last 3,000,000 years... 

[Chris N]

I've been looking round and the sensible cost options are: Hewit Alpine 631/£425, Spa Audax Steel 725/£315, Genesis Equilibrium 725/£399 and for real cheap the Ribble 520/Silly cheap can't be bothered to look. I don't think anything made with 4130 counts personally, which rules out the IMHO over-rated Surlys.

Reynolds 525/520 is 4130...

It's less about what the tubes are made from, more about what you do with them.

[sg37409]

My advice is to go for comfort & puncture-protection

Punctures only bother me on commutes. I dont mind getting them when out a ride *.
Comfort and speed are the thing to go for.


* as long as its not p1ssing down or midge infested.