taking the lane

[Martin]

split off from the A303 thread because I think it's by and large a seperate issue to riding on a 70mph DC.

I'm aware of the concept of riding in primary and secondary position, and probably do it quite a bit myself (especially at night where I try to ride as near to the centre line as possible as usually the surface is best there). And if I'm on a steep very narrow hill or a road with poor sight lines I will generally hold my position until it is safe to pass. If it's on a narrow uphill I will keep riding until there's a convenient place to pull over and let the patient motorist pass, this usually results in a friendly raise of the hand. The same usually goes on bends where I've held my position (when it's me that does the hand gesture)

I'm sure I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but whilst I see us all as having equal right to use it, IMO roads are primarily designed and maintained (and of course used) for the motorised vehicle, any concept that we as cyclists should try to "control" the traffic by the way we position ourselves in the road just seems arrogant and often confrontational.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I'll continue to be arrogant then. What is that priority list - my safety, your safety, the law, my convenience, your convenience?

[red marley]

Your [Martin] two paragraphs seem to be somewhat at odds with each other. You "hold your position until it is safe to pass" and yet say that controlling traffic through positioning is arrogant and often confrontational.

Traffic of all flavours "take the lane" all the time. It is part of safe, predictable and courteous road behaviour. I think the reason it can invite aggression when people do it while riding a bike is that there is a significant minority of car drivers who do not appreciate the amount of space required to safely pass a cyclist, and so can assume that holding a position is unnecessary. But that is not a reason to avoid doing it.

[mcshroom]

The arrogant users of the roads are those who feel they are able to bully pedestrians, horses, and bicycles off of what are shared use facilities and appropriate them purely for their own use.

[Martin]

Your [Martin] two paragraphs seem to be somewhat at odds with each other. You "hold your position until it is safe to pass" and yet say that controlling traffic through positioning is arrogant and often confrontational.

I don't think they are but YMMV, to me it's about common courtesy mixed with a bit of safety. And I think it's a majority of drivers who are unaware of the room required to safely pass a cyclist, which is why some many of them who pass me end up having to avoid uncoming traffic.

If I hear a car gunning it up my arse I usually move into the gutter pronto, they are rare though

[Martin]

The arrogant users of the roads are those who feel they are able to bully pedestrians, horses, and bicycles off of what are shared use facilities and appropriate them purely for their own use.

and riding primary is going to address this? you want to use your body to stand up to that type of motorist go right ahead

[Si]

I have to agree that your paragraphs do seem to contradict. What you describe in the first paragraph is how you control the road to ensure that those wishing to pass you do so safely...basically it seems that you agree with taking the lane in this context. 

The only difference I can see in what you are saying, and forgive me if I have this wrong, is that you initially take the lane and if the driver behind waits patiently you stay there.  However, if the driver behind starts revving, beeping, etc then you swing over into the gutter and allow an impatient and bad tempered driver to overtake where you have already decided that it is not safe to overtake.  I would not do this, rather I would continue to block the unsafe overtake until I deemed it safe to let the driver past....I certainly don't want such a driver trying to squeeze past me in an unsafe situation.

If, on the other hand, I'm riding along on a road, in secondary, where it is safe for drivers to over take me, then I will happily stay in secondary all day (apart from at junctions, etc) and let them past.  I know of very very few riders who actually ride in primary just to hold up traffic, rather than to benefit their own safety.  Likewise, off the top of my head I know of no cases where riding in primary has led to a collision...assuming that it is done correctly. 

But it does occur to me that if drivers know that revving their engines and banging their horns will make some cyclists swing over into the gutter and let them squeeze past, then they will be more likely to do it to all cyclists and become even more bad tempered should said cyclist not immediately grovel in the gutter for them.

[teethgrinder]

I sometimes use a trick or two to "control" the traffic.
If I'm turning right and have a car behind me on 30-40mph limit roads, I will time my hand signal to coincide with oncoming traffic. It works wonders for preventing them overtaking me a second after I have signalled and it means I can get to the right of the lane much more easily.
I don't have a default position on the road. I just do what I think will keep me safest. Sometimes I'm right in the gutter, other times I'm on the centreline or even on the other side of the road.

Roads have to be designed to accommodate the largest vehicles that will use them. It wasn't until around the 1950s that roads were split into different categories from footpaths to motorways. Before roads were categorized, everything was called a road. Aristocratic cyclists started putting tarmac on them then along came the motor car and the government decided to fund road construction for them. I'm guessing that it's because of cars that cycling is illegal on footpaths, though local councils are keen on reversing that by turning pavements into shared use cyclepaths to earn brownie points.
I'll stick with what it says in the highway code about who has priority over using roads.

We don't build proper roads like they do in the USA IMO.

[Charlotte]

I'll continue to be arrogant then. What is that priority list - my safety, your safety, the law, my convenience, your convenience?

+1 and then some.

[Hot Flatus]

Different cyclists have different perceptions. I  nearly always aware of what is behind me and manoeuvre accordingly. I have a riding partner who is oblivious and never l looks behind him. I have been on audaxes and seen solo riders pretty much sticking to the centre of the road (not lane) regardless of the road width or traffic.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I used whichever part of the road wasn't underwater today 

[mattc]

Your [Martin] two paragraphs seem to be somewhat at odds with each other. You "hold your position until it is safe to pass" and yet say that controlling traffic through positioning is arrogant and often confrontational.

+1

The first para makes wonderful sense, but taken as a whole I'm completely baffled by your post Martin 

[Martin]

Your [Martin] two paragraphs seem to be somewhat at odds with each other. You "hold your position until it is safe to pass" and yet say that controlling traffic through positioning is arrogant and often confrontational.

+1

The first para makes wonderful sense, but taken as a whole I'm completely baffled by your post Martin 

well just read the first paragraph  The point I was making was that politely expecting and encouraging other road users to wait until a safe place to pass (and also for a relatively short time) is all fine and dandy and indeed part and parcel of sharing the road;

judging by some of the replies there seem to be cyclists who think it's fine to assert their right to be on the road even to the annoyance of other road users; not an attitude I agree with (which is what the second paragraph is about)

if you think I'm talking crap ignore me, simples!

[Wobbly John]

If what you're saying is that it's OK to ride assertively but not to ride agressively, then I think the majority on here will agree with you.

For me 'taking the lane' is just another way of communicating with other road users, just like sticking an arm out when turning.

[woollypigs]

Wobbly you got my vote for president

[Freya]

'Controlling' the traffic means preventing someone from carrying out a dangerous overtake. I'm not sure why anyone on this forum should object to that.

I'm sure a small minority of cyclists misunderstand how and when to use primary, but that doesn't mean that everyone else should get out of the road so that an impatient car can pass. Depending on the situation I will allow an overtake by pulling in, but that very much depends on the circumstances and is hardly a default position.

[LEE]

I often/always cycle (and drive) in a way to remove any doubt from the traffic around me.

If allowing the oncoming car to think they could squeeze by me, creating a difficult, and drawn-out, passing manoeuvre,  then I'll just move into the very centre of the road and remove any doubt. 

If you allow a car the possibility to "squeeze" then they will.  If you don't (mostly) they won't.  You must make their minds up for them.

It's easy to cross a line into aggressive cycling/driving.  I like to think of it as "persuasive".

[Tewdric]

Your [Martin] two paragraphs seem to be somewhat at odds with each other. You "hold your position until it is safe to pass" and yet say that controlling traffic through positioning is arrogant and often confrontational.

Traffic of all flavours "take the lane" all the time. It is part of safe, predictable and courteous road behaviour. I think the reason it can invite aggression when people do it while riding a bike is that there is a significant minority of car drivers who do not appreciate the amount of space required to safely pass a cyclist, and so can assume that holding a position is unnecessary. But that is not a reason to avoid doing it.

This is nicely put. 

I "take the lane" frequently when passing parked cars but always knowing what is behind me and signalling well in advance of pulling out (well, most of the time, sometimes difficult in town requiring a snap risk assessment and dynamic flow through) but am careful to move over and indicate to a following car to pass now when there is a safe opportunity, or if they would be stuck for ages, for example on a long uphill singletrack lane.  We have to give and take if we are to share the roads safely and reasonably amicably.

[Kim]

I'm conflict avoidant to a fault and generally of the belief that pissing off drivers isn't conducive to anyone's safety.  I'm also of the belief that my own safety is greatly improved by avoiding dodgy road surface conditions, making my intentions to manoeuvre as clear as possible and - where possible - having somewhere to go if it all goes pear shaped.  This means I end up 'taking the lane' from time to time, because that's how much space I need to ride my bike in a safe manner.  When there's enough space for me to move over, I will, in a blatant "the hazard has passed" way, if not actively thanking the driver behind for being patient.

I think there's usually an optimal position to ride in where you've got enough space for your own safety, but still look like you're making an effort to keep left (theatrically looking at - or even pointing at - potholes, glass, chutney, doors, pedestrians etc, helps reinforce this).  The idea is to show whoever is following that you're not a bloodycyclist gratuitously "riding in the middle of the road" but that you're avoiding some hazard(s) and the road simply isn't wide enough for them to overtake yet.  Once your behaviour becomes situational rather than dispositional, they're likely to be a lot more patient.

If there's a pinch point, better to ride 1/3 of the way out, conspicuously avoiding the gutter debris, than right in the middle so as to block the following car.  The car still won't have room to overtake, but it becomes the pinch-point's fault, not yours.


I like teethgrinder's point about timing to coincide with oncoming traffic.  I'll make an effort to do that in future.   

[Hot Flatus]

We have to give and take if we are to share the roads safely and reasonably amicably.

Absolutely. And that sometimes means....shock horror.....pulling to the side of the road to let traffic past. A small gesture at no cost, but greatly appreciated.

Sometimes the bloody-minded attitude of cyclists is counter-productive. I remember on the Dean 300 a couple of years ago riding on that single track road before the climb to the monument. There was a car that had been following patiently up a hill, I spotted a driveway and me and riding partner pulled into it to let car past. Or so we thought. There was another rider behind us who just carried on. Pointless, and just served to aggravate the driver.

[spindrift]

Cars delay me every single day. I don't get aggravated.

[Hot Flatus]

That would be a first for you.

[spindrift]

At least I don't piss on baby mice and stuff them up my arse.

[Jaded]

This is my favourite thread of the year 

[Hot Flatus]

At least I don't piss on baby mice and stuff them up my arse.

New Year's resolution, eh.

Won't last.