taking the lane

[Martin]

We have to give and take if we are to share the roads safely and reasonably amicably.

Absolutely. And that sometimes means....shock horror.....pulling to the side of the road to let traffic past. A small gesture at no cost, but greatly appreciated.

Sometimes the bloody-minded attitude of cyclists is counter-productive

eggsacktly and my whole OP; make it clear that you are a road user the same as the cars / WVM and it's not always convenient to overtake, but allow them to as soon as it's safe to do so, just a bit of common courtesy. It's I what almost always get from cyclists when I'm driving my car

[Si]

We have to give and take if we are to share the roads safely and reasonably amicably.

Absolutely. And that sometimes means....shock horror.....pulling to the side of the road to let traffic past. A small gesture at no cost, but greatly appreciated.

Sometimes the bloody-minded attitude of cyclists is counter-productive

eggsacktly and my whole OP; make it clear that you are a road user the same as the cars / WVM and it's not always convenient to overtake, but allow them to as soon as it's safe to do so, just a bit of common courtesy. It's I what almost always get from cyclists when I'm driving my car

Surely that is what every one else on the thread has said they do - take the lane until it is safe to pull back in and let the vehicles behind pass. 

But perhaps the issue is the definition of pulling in to the side of the road: if you mean that we should ride through the debris and drain covers just to let a car past then I'd have to disagree.  If you mean that we ought to pull right off the road every time we are going to have a car or two behind us for a short while then I'd disagree.  If you mean pull back into secondary and let the waiting traffic happily and safely pass us then no probs at all.  If you mean pull into a passing area on a single track road if it can be safely done to let a car past that would otherwise be stuck behind us for an inordinate amount of time then fair enough. 

This is why your OP seems at odds with it self: you start by saying that you do what everyone does, but then give the impression that we should not be in primary if there is a car behind us....which sort of defeats the purpose a lot of the time!

[HTFB]

This is why your OP seems at odds with it self: you start by saying that you do what everyone does, but then give the impression that we should not be in primary if there is a car behind us....which sort of defeats the purpose a lot of the time!

...though, for the other some of the time, on say a relatively empty but narrow road, I find it helpful to sit out in primary to make it clear to a vehicle approaching that they will have to change course to overtake and wait until the opposite lane is clear; once they have slowed down anticipating this but before they have come up behind me, I can pull back into secondary and let them continue through at a sensible speed. As everybody keeps saying, there are exceptions to the exceptions.

Has anybody made the obvious point that it's never worth deliberately blocking an overtake that could otherwise be made safely, because you want the idiots in front of you where you can see them?

[mattc]

Has anybody made the obvious point that it's never worth deliberately blocking an overtake that could otherwise be made safely, because you want the idiots in front of you where you can see them?

I don't think so, but it's a very good point. 

(I do wonder how many people do the same in their car. There are plenty of idiots I don't want behind me even when I'm driving ... )

[Martin]

This is why your OP seems at odds with it self: you start by saying that you do what everyone does, but then give the impression that we should not be in primary if there is a car behind us....which sort of defeats the purpose a lot of the time!

no that's not what it says at all; and I did say I expected to ruffle a few feathers

perhaps what I'm saying is respect other road users as you would expect them to respect you, this means not persistently riding in the road in a position that pisses drivers off (and then rubs off on your fellow cyclists) just because it's what John Franklin says...

http://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/fuck-you-john-franklin/

[Freya]

Well I suspect the reason why this ruffles a few feathers is because you are misrepresenting what 'taking the lane' means. If I were to say I think that people shouldn't drive at a 'sensible speed'  because it isn't safe, and then define that as being 25mph faster than the legal limit then perhaps I might find people disagreeing with me. It wouldn't add much to the debate about road safety however... Nobody on here is advocating persistently holding cars up by riding in the middle if the road for the sake if it. Indeed my experience of the road is that this hardly ever happens and the reverse is true. Most cyclists seem reluctant to be in primary when it would be safer if they were.

[Jaded]

This is why your OP seems at odds with it self: you start by saying that you do what everyone does, but then give the impression that we should not be in primary if there is a car behind us....which sort of defeats the purpose a lot of the time!

no that's not what it says at all; and I did say I expected to ruffle a few feathers

perhaps what I'm saying is respect other road users as you would expect them to respect you, this means not persistently riding in the road in a position that pisses drivers off (and then rubs off on your fellow cyclists) just because it's what John Franklin says...

http://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/fuck-you-john-franklin/

pretty horrible SafeSpeed style London centric bile fest.

[spindrift]

Yes, that's a silly article:

“I believe that the anti-infrastructure policies that Franklin promotes are responsible for the high cycling death toll on Britain’s roads.”

Right, so it's not inattentive drivers then?

[mattc]

<sip>... Nobody on here is advocating persistently holding cars up by riding in the middle if the road for the sake if it. Indeed my experience of the road is that this hardly ever happens and the reverse is true. Most cyclists seem reluctant to be in primary when it would be safer if they were.

Very true.

I'm also going to point out the other side of all this; most cyclists tend to be over-deferential to their steel-caged overlords, no doubt motivated by perfectly natural fear. In turn, the behaviour that pisses many drivers off is riding between the white lines - you know, not on a cycle-path. Even riding in the gutter we are often considered a nuisance.

Then if you ride as most people are describing here - 'taking the lane' with good reason, not being bolshy for the sake of it - you will piss off an even larger minority of drivers.

Sorry if I've ruffled any feathers there.

[LEE]

Sometimes drivers (Hampshire anecdote so maybe not applicable to central London) are "over-deferential" , waiting in an overtaking lay-by (the sort you see cut into the hedgerow every few hundred yards on single-track) when there is ample room to pass safely.
I think the ratio of cars being nice to me and me being nice to cars, by pulling over and waving them past, is about 1:1.
Generally I find cyclists and motorists get on perfectly well.

My main concern in all these (Motorist v Cyclist) issues in London will force a reaction impacting the whole country. I know they are not 100% London-based but it does feel that way when you watch the "Cycle War" style documentaries or read articles in papers.

I can well imagine London based petrol-head MPs, whose commute involves a taxi ride from Kensington to Parliament, thinking that something drastic needs to be done, although, mostly, nothing does.

Even in London itself I imagine that, mostly, nothing needs to be done (I have previously posted that all my issues in London have been with knob-heads on bicycles, not cars).

If you add up all the interactions we have with cars, and then add up all the terrible interactions, it's probably not a bad ratio. 

Let's hope that MPs are distracted by the flood of (two at the last count) Romanians and forget to force through some sweeping legislation that impacts my fairly "live and let live" cycling in Hants.

[PaulR]

My experience of London commuting suggests that the overtaking issues are not really London-based at all, but are rural.  In most of London, cyclists are very unlikely to hold up cars, not least because the average car speed is so low. 

There may, of course, be other aspects of London cycling behaviour that cause upset, but that's another matter.

[Jaded]

My London centric comment arises out of the suggestion that infrastructure will solve cyclists problems. People that say that have never ridden in the country.

[Ham]

Has anybody made the obvious point that it's never worth deliberately blocking an overtake that could otherwise be made safely, because you want the idiots in front of you where you can see them?

I don't think so, but it's a very good point. 

(I do wonder how many people do the same in their car. There are plenty of idiots I don't want behind me even when I'm driving ... )

I do, car and bike, it's a fundamental part of keeping myself safe.

Rightly or wrongly I often decide how to gauge my approach to a pinch point based on my perception of the immediate road conditions, if I feel taking the lane may threaten my safety, I'll even stop if needed to avoid the risk. Normally it is just a matter of adjusting speed down to let one (particular) car past and using the immediate gap after to position myself.

All this taking the road and what have you depends on the reasonableness and acuity of the driver of the vehicle. The chance that the driver might be under the influence of drink or drugs or otherwise engaged turn the process into straight Russian roulette.

Out of interest how many here have experienced the phenomena of people driving stolen BMW and the like doing power slides and handbrake turns etc in the public road? That's seriously scary. There was a spate of it around here last year, and it hasn't gone away. I really wouldn't want to meet one of those whilst taking any lane (or gutter come to that)

[Jurek]

.....Out of interest how many here have experienced the phenomena of people driving stolen BMW and the like doing power slides and handbrake turns etc in the public road? That's seriously scary. There was a spate of it around here last year, and it hasn't gone away. I really wouldn't want to meet one of those whilst taking any lane (or gutter come to that)

Someone I work with, well, we work for the same company, comes to work in a tatty Mazda MX5. Bumpers and other bits of trim held in place with cable ties. Blue bulbs in the side-light clusters....
I'm painting a picture here....
What really caught my eye about this car was the wheel/tyre arrangement:
Slightly wider than standard Carlos Fandango wheels on the front (the arches have been flared to accommodate these) with the expected low profile rubber.
But on the back, very, very skinny, almost space-saver skinny, steel wheels, and negative camber.
Curiosity got the better of me one day so I asked why he has such an unusual (illegal?) tyre arrangement, and what did it handle like?
Turns out he has it so arranged as this greatly assists with power sliding. Something he does on a regular basis (to the extent that he has adapted his car to make it easier for him).
On the roads.
The ones you and I use.
Words fail me.

[matthew]

My experience of semi rural (london commuter belt), Rural (touring) and City (Birmingham as a student) taught me that the threats from drivers change depending on where you are.

In an Urban environment I was worried about SMIDSY from side turnings and left hooks. in this case taking the lane in the last 20-50m before the junction reduced the left hook potential and provided more space to manouver in the event of the SMIDSY.

In the semi rural commuter belt the greatest percieved risk still is the inapropriate overtake (Blind bend, brow of the hill, oncoming traffic etc.) here taking the lane is again a posible means to influence the behaviour of the driver for the short duration until a suitable oportunity to pass is available. Whilst delivering the daily paper for 4 years I learnt exactly which stretches of road I had to control for my own safety.

When on rural tours none of these were prominant risks, though the closest I ever came to a SMIDSY from a left turn was while touring, only good anticipation and heading for the centre of the road got us through that, the percieved risk has been from the potential for a local who knows the road to be travelling to fast to respond when the cyclist suddenly appears round the bend. In this case taking in the lane is not helpful as it gets you more in the way of the danger.


Personally I do 'take the lane' in some circumstances normally for short stretches round known or obvious contraints: Pinch points, blind bends etc. where I want to discourage an overtake. However these will be for short distances before returning to a secondary position. I do occasionally 'take the lane for longer' periods but this is one of two scenarios:

1. heavy traffic on a multi lane road where I am matching the traffic speed, I will now align my road position with the drivers seat, this maximises visibility, gets clear of side turnings and allows access for right hand side filtering if the traffic slows.

2. On a lightly trafficed dual carriage way I will move out to a position that makes a driver believe they can not pass me whilst not changing lane. This is only possible if the traffic volumes are such that changing lane is not a problem and is normally something I start to do once I get buzzed by someone who didn't move over.

[Martin]

This is why your OP seems at odds with it self: you start by saying that you do what everyone does, but then give the impression that we should not be in primary if there is a car behind us....which sort of defeats the purpose a lot of the time!

no that's not what it says at all; and I did say I expected to ruffle a few feathers

perhaps what I'm saying is respect other road users as you would expect them to respect you, this means not persistently riding in the road in a position that pisses drivers off (and then rubs off on your fellow cyclists) just because it's what John Franklin says...

http://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/fuck-you-john-franklin/

pretty horrible SafeSpeed style London centric bile fest.

I thought so too, but just shows that one man's Messiah is another's Satan 

I thought there was something about Franklin that had the stench of CTC Head office Newspeak, and I was right. These are the people that opposed the cyclepath next to the A24 near Box Hill ( now beloved of Kamikaze pilots every weekend) after all

[Regulator]

This is why your OP seems at odds with it self: you start by saying that you do what everyone does, but then give the impression that we should not be in primary if there is a car behind us....which sort of defeats the purpose a lot of the time!

no that's not what it says at all; and I did say I expected to ruffle a few feathers

perhaps what I'm saying is respect other road users as you would expect them to respect you, this means not persistently riding in the road in a position that pisses drivers off (and then rubs off on your fellow cyclists) just because it's what John Franklin says...

http://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/fuck-you-john-franklin/

pretty horrible SafeSpeed style London centric bile fest.

Has a great big CEGB emblem on it... quelle surprise

[mattc]

Sometimes drivers (Hampshire anecdote so maybe not applicable to central London) are "over-deferential" , waiting in an overtaking lay-by (the sort you see cut into the hedgerow every few hundred yards on single-track) when there is ample room to pass safely.
I think the ratio of cars being nice to me and me being nice to cars, by pulling over and waving them past, is about 1:1.
Generally I find cyclists and motorists get on perfectly well.

<snipped some tedious london shit>

If you add up all the interactions we have with cars, and then add up all the terrible interactions, it's probably not a bad ratio. 

I completely agree 

The good nature of the majority is why I try to treat other road-users in a civilised manner. (Until they give me good reason not to. And often even then).

[Martin]

Paul; one of the reasons I started Audax in your neck of the woods is because the roads are MUCH quieter and also the drivers are MUCH more courteous than in my area (where we are pretty much limited to very quiet B roads and roads that don't have numbers or signposts if we want to avoid motorised knobends)

don't get me started on Kent....

[Kim]

Sometimes drivers (Hampshire anecdote so maybe not applicable to central London) are "over-deferential" , waiting in an overtaking lay-by (the sort you see cut into the hedgerow every few hundred yards on single-track) when there is ample room to pass safely.

That happened to me twice on the way back from the Andover camping weekend.  Maybe it's a Hampshire thing.  Around here they're more likely to assume you'll be able to ride up the skoggy embankment to let them squeeze past.

[TimC]

Generally, around my area drivers are pretty good and I've had very few ill-tempered or simply inattentive episodes. The more major the road the less tolerance I find, but the numbers of contretemps are still remarkably low. Most drivers seem to entirely understand why I might wish to take the lane, and even those that don't rarely do anything other than overtake very quickly once it's clear to do so. I've had far more problems - or, rather, observed drivers' potential problems - when drivers have made overtakes approaching blind bends on our little lanes. None has yet reaped the whirlwind, but I've seen some phenomenal avoidances! I'd guess the issue has usually been drivers underestimating my speed. Well, I'd like to think so, anyway!

Despite some of the rhetoric here, I don't see many differences in the way we all seem to approach this issue - there's probably far more difference in the way we express it, than in the way we practically apply it.

[Si]

This is why your OP seems at odds with it self: you start by saying that you do what everyone does, but then give the impression that we should not be in primary if there is a car behind us....which sort of defeats the purpose a lot of the time!

no that's not what it says at all; and I did say I expected to ruffle a few feathers

perhaps what I'm saying is respect other road users as you would expect them to respect you, this means not persistently riding in the road in a position that pisses drivers off (and then rubs off on your fellow cyclists) just because it's what John Franklin says...

I find it hard to believe that the whole point of the thread is to tell people not to do what they don't do, and what no one including Franklin is telling them to do, anyway?  Perhaps what you actually need to do is to give a detailed example (with diagrams and everyfink) of what you find is wrong, and how you would have done it differently, so that we can all try to understand what you think the thread is actually about; because at the moment it looks as if it's you in one corner and the rest of the world in the other.

[Nelson Longflap]

If you add up all the interactions we have with cars, and then add up all the terrible interactions, it's probably not a bad ratio. 

Yep I agree with that. I'd say 99% of drivers are fine and only a tiny fraction of the remaining 1% are actually malicious.  Quite surprising really as by definition 50% of drivers are below average (assuming a normal distribution of driving skills).

BUT in the course of a year's cycling many/most of us must be overtaken by tens or hundreds of thousands of vehicles. (eg I regularly use a road that carries an average 24000 vehicle movements a day, so much more than 1000 vehicles per hour when busy.) 1% of a hundred thousand vehicles per year is 1000 idiots per year potentially causing each of us a problem due to inattention, sleepiness, prescription or recreational drugs, alcohol, inadvertent idiocy or malicious intent.

My last close call was last year just approaching a gentle left hand bend on the above mentioned road when a car overtook just on the bend. Visibility was fine, nothing coming the other way. The car overtake was safe and proper, unfortunately the driver seemed oblivious to the fact that the huge caravan he was towing swung in as he rounded the bend.  Missed me by a whisker. On reflection, if I'd been expecting a caravan to overtake I would have positioned myself further out, but for normal traffic on a fairly narrow two way road in relatively quiet conditions a secondary position about 50cm from the gutter should have been no problem.

[LEE]

My last close call was last year just approaching a gentle left hand bend on the above mentioned road when a car overtook just on the bend. Visibility was fine, nothing coming the other way. The car overtake was safe and proper, unfortunately the driver seemed oblivious to the fact that the huge caravan he was towing swung in as he rounded the bend.  Missed me by a whisker.

It's often the car immediately behind, or the trailer behind, the car overtaking me that catches me, and my Spidey-senses, out.

Mantra - "There's probably another car to come....There's probably another car to come....There's probably another car to come...."

[David Martin]

Had a knobend who decided that I shouldn't be taking the lane today.
I was here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/preview#!data=!1m4!1m3!1d85575!2d-2.9651133!3d56.473815
Just turned right out of the cyclepath (put in place since this satellite picture was taken), no traffic in sight. I am middle of the lane and wanting to go up Thompson Street. Knobend comes up from behind in a car that sounds like a boy racer. I indicate right and ease out a bit further  decides that 20m is enough to overtake me but not enough  to get past properly  so squeezes through, forcing me off my line. I exclaim my displeasure 'what the hell was that for?' at which point KE stops (blocking my way ahead), gets out (proving to be a late 50's and rather obese man)  swears at me and claims I was weaving all over the road without looking (I was in the middle of the lane, and could hear his bright yellow wagon a mile off so knew he was there). Exclaims it was all on camera and would be posted to youtube (not seen a sign yet).

Then pulls in and parks 30m further up the road. I shake my head as I go past  and he berates me and says it will be on youtube. I made a somewhat disparaging remark along the lines of 'that doesn't stop you driving like an asshole' which probably wasn't the wisest of things to say.

Aggressive, impatient prat who has invented his own 'safe speed' style rules of the road and will use his car to bully others.