Six Nations 2017

[ElyDave]

Should have been simple really, no offside line, use your back row and front row to pick and go repeatedly until the gap appears, then send through the fast boys.  No need to ruck if the opposition don't want to play

I was thinking much the same thing. If Italy had tried that tactic against New Zealand, say, they would have been massacred. England showed a lack of imagination in dealing with it, sticking too rigidly to the gameplan rather than using their instinct.

They worked it out eventually though.

Final score flatters England.

Agreed.

I seem to remember a spate of the same tactic in schoolboy rugby back when I was a referee, but it didn't last long.

[citoyen]

They did show a couple of times that Italy are very vulnerable if you just run at them. As did Ireland the other week.

[mattc]

Bit harsh to say England couldn't think on their feet - does anyone think the Italian players just came up with that tactic out on the pitch??
I don't see any armchair expert posts on here written before the end of the 1st half 

It took them a while, but England sussed it out and went on to score more tries and goals. Hence the scoreline.

But even as an England supporter, I loved seeing them scratching their heads, and deservedly losing the 1st half to a clever and bold strategy. I did start doing the calculation, of "What if England beat everyone except Italy ... ?

[citoyen]

Bit harsh to say England couldn't think on their feet - does anyone think the Italian players just came up with that tactic out on the pitch??

You could tell from the way the referee dealt with it that the Italy coach had discussed it with him before the game, but even he seemed confused at times.

But even as an England supporter, I loved seeing them scratching their heads, and deservedly losing the 1st half to a clever and bold strategy. I did start doing the calculation, of "What if England beat everyone except Italy ... ?

It made the first half interesting but as the second half went on, the limitations of the Italy gameplan were clearly exposed.

[citoyen]

I like Eddie Jones's take on it - "Trevor Chappell rugby" (Bodyline was the analogy that occurred to me while watching, but the underarm bowling comparison is far more accurate - at least Bodyline was a form of attack rather than simply disruptive):

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/six-nations-england-coach-eddie-jones-threatens-to-retire-from-rugby-after-launching-stinging-attack-a7600721.html

The report is a bit sensationalist - he doesn't look "seething" to me.

[Mr Larrington]

Mr Jones did appear to be more than a little cheesed off, but Lewis Moody seems to have come out in favour of the Italians for daring to try something different.

[Psychler]

I don't think Mr Poite helped England by saying that he would call "ruck" or "tackle only" and then not calling anything for much of the time.  On several occasions he called "ruck" after the ball had been moved away. 

His interpretation of the ruck laws wasn't consistent.  His reply to Haskell that he was a referee not a coach wasn't helpful, Haskell was asking for clarification of his interpretation of the ruck law not for coaching advice.  There were occasions when Italians were originally in contact over the ball [ie creating the ruck and the associated offside lines] but then pulled out only for the referee to call "tackle only".  His comment that they had to be "genuinely in contact" was also confusing, it suggested that having hands on another player was not contact, leading to the discussion about "1 metre or 2 metres" from the scrum half, tackle, ruck etc.   

This tactic may have helped Italy keep the score down but it also contributed to one of the worst halves of rugby I've ever seen.  England's main problem, however, was not dealing with the ruck/tackle situation, it was the amount of mistakes and poor decisions made around the pitch.  They gave away too many penalties [especially in the first half] and both Italian tries were allowed by England mistakes or missed tackles.  The ruck/tackle tactic was a distraction that in the end didn't help Italy but also caused very little rugby to be played.

I'm with Eddie Jones on this, that wasn't rugby [even if perfectly legal] and I'm sure that most of the people watching at Twickenham would agree.  I'm pretty sure that this tactic was a one off from the Italians [specially as Brendan Venter is going back to South Africa], but if they continue with it I'm sure that the powers that run the Six Nations will introduce relegation, as has been touted, and that we'll be waving goodbye to the Azzuri.  The Six Nations has become a vibrant, spectacular tournament, with all the Unions earning vast amounts of money from it.  They are not going to allow it to return to the dirge of ten man rugby.

[ElyDave]

you always play to the referee, even if he is inconsistent.

With lack of clarity I maintain "pick and go" as the best approach.

TBH I saw a lot of Italian contact in the tackle and then retreat before the ruck could form, but at that level it's so fast that the distinctions become somewhat subjective, hence "play the referee".

[firedfromthecircus]

I don't see a problem in Italy not committing to the ruck. The problem is that it took England so long to realise that they could go through the middle if no-one is blocking the way. The rigid stupidity of professional rugby players is the problem.
A couple of seasons ago there was a little bout of teams not committing to the maul. Ireland in particular if I remember correctly. So the attacking team would have players obstructing when they formed the traditional maul as there was no opposition. Works for as long as teams don't know how to play against it, but as soon as they suss they can run right through the space created by the defenders avoiding the maul it's effectiveness as a tactic is over. Haven't seen it happen much recently.
If Eddie Jones wants to get angry about something it should be the scrums. They are a complete and utter joke now at international level. I haven't watched club rugby for some time so I would be interested to hear from those that do if they manage to scrummage. The IRB need to sort it out. It's a farce! 

[citoyen]

The problem is that it took England so long to realise that they could go through the middle if no-one is blocking the way. The rigid stupidity of professional rugby players is the problem.

There was a perfect example of this early on in the game when Hughes received a high ball deep in England territory and was immediately hauled to the ground by Parisse. But Parisse almost instantly let go of him and within a moment, Italy players were swarming on all sides.

If Hughes had his wits about him, he could have got straight to his feet with the ball and run through the gaping hole Italy had left in their defensive line. Instead, his team-mates piled on top of him to form the ruck, killing off the attacking opportunity.

You can forgive them being caught unawares by the tactic early on, but it took them far too long to twig.

If Eddie Jones wants to get angry about something it should be the scrums.

One thing I remember from playing rugby at school is that the ball is supposed to be put into the scrum straight...   

[Marco Stefano]

We were watching with recognition - this happened to Ms Marco 3 weeks ago in a women's Prem match. She was flummoxed by an oppo flanker (ironically, part of the England setup) standing between her and the 10, repeatedly shouting 'tackle only, Sir!' from a couple of metres away.

As I understand it, from that position the flanker is not allowed to tackle the player playing the ball from the previous tackle, to do that she would have to come from behind the back foot of the tackle (over to ElyDave for clarification), but she can stand where she likes on the pitch. I think the tackled player or the next player in is in the best position to play the ball and run straight, which England got the hang of eventually...

Looking at the weekend's game, I don't think any Italian player would be in a ruck if they just had a hand on an England shoulder next to the tackle, but if they go in to try and ruck the ball against English competition and come out again, I think a ruck was formed, whether they stay in it or not (their choice). I don't see a problem with the tactic, but I concede that the first half was one for the IRB law nerds (like me, who found it fascinating). I know the refs try and make the game flow by calling 'tackle only', 'ruck', etc. but I wonder what would happen if they didn't, and make the players think about it a bit more? Would it just be stilted?

[Psychler]

I know the refs try and make the game flow by calling 'tackle only', 'ruck', etc. but I wonder what would happen if they didn't, and make the players think about it a bit more? Would it just be stilted?

That was part of England's problem.  The ref said to Hartley and Haskell that he would call "ruck" or "tackle" but then didn't for most of the breakdowns.  I think he often struggled to make a decision on which it was in time to give a call.  On a couple of occasions he called "ruck" when the ball had already reached the fly half's hands.

[ElyDave]

I know the refs try and make the game flow by calling 'tackle only', 'ruck', etc. but I wonder what would happen if they didn't, and make the players think about it a bit more? Would it just be stilted?

That was part of England's problem.  The ref said to Hartley and Haskell that he would call "ruck" or "tackle" but then didn't for most of the breakdowns.  I think he often struggled to make a decision on which it was in time to give a call.  On a couple of occasions he called "ruck" when the ball had already reached the fly half's hands.

That's a symptom of what I said, it moves so bloody fast these days. I remember stepping up two levels on one occasion to level five and it was a huge difference in pace, and required speed of thinking. But you have to remember these refs are professionals with huge support, they do this every week if not twice a week, fitness coaching, psychology etc.

They should be at least as good as the players they referee, that was always my mantra

[matthew]

Do Google know something we don't yet.

Todays google doodle for St Davids day is a welsh wooden spoon 

[ElyDave]

I'm gonna miss Saturday's games. 

I have to go and drink gin instead     

[mattc]

Friday night matches anyone?

Seems like England are sticking to their guns, but the guy at 6 Nations plc (c) said this:

“Would I like more Fridays? Yes. Will I get them? Probably in time, but it will take time” said Feehan. “The other unions for one reason or another have had difficulties with the Friday night. The French tend to like it, the Welsh put up with it and the rest don’t want it at the moment but that could change in time. You keep pushing the door and eventually the door will open.”

He's not lacking in confidence, is he??

[andyoxon]

North!

[ElyDave]

Good game so far

[Mr Larrington]

Man on telly said before the kickoff that all bar one of the Friday night matches thus far have been played in Cardiff so saying the Welsh "put up with it" sounds a tad dubious.

[andyoxon]

North!

[Jaded]

Apparently we want Wales to win.


This is going to be a difficult half...

[Wowbagger]

I'm sure you don't, Jaded!

[Basil]

Great game.  Both teams playing for a bonus point in the last seconds.

[ElyDave]

The Sexton yellow was the turning point, and absolutely right to give it.  Ireland looked sharp until then.

[T42]

Oh well.