Author Topic: Lime mortar  (Read 3579 times)

Lime mortar
« on: 11 August, 2017, 02:57:33 pm »
Need to some hole filling and pointing before winter, building is 1650 ish so what mortar should I purchase please?

PH
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Aunt Maud

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #1 on: 11 August, 2017, 06:50:22 pm »
I know this one........

A moderate natural hydraulic lime is what you need. Normally classed as NHL 3.5

Mix this to the ratio of 1 part lime to 2 parts sharp/grit sand and add water. Mixing to a stiff consistency, which feels very rich in lime and will hold together on an inverted trowel. You'll need to chop and pound the mortar to get it mixed and don't put too much water in it, as it will shrink and crack.

Depending on the sand available you might need to add some fine sand if it's too gritty. Normally you would choose a maximum aggregate size half the width of the joint, but if I remember your place is made of coursed rubble, so a 10mm grit sand should do.

I used to buy NHL3 from Mike Wye, but now buy it directly from Breckweg in Germany. It's a very slow, fat lime with a creamy colour. The British don't seem to get on with it and prefer Castle from Hanson, but this is grey and ugly, IMO.

https://www.mikewye.co.uk/product-category/lime-products/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIw_GktNfP1QIVh7ftCh3zLgtfEAAYASAAEgJ34_D_BwE

You want to put more lime in than less, as a fatty mix is preferable to a lean mix, as it's easier to work with.

So, look at the old mortar and try and determine the aggregate size bearing in mind that the aggregate would have come from within a 10 mile radius of the house and source your quarry, local sand is in keeping with a historic house. Remember they relied on horse drawn carts, so the time taken to freight aggregate would have been kept to a minimum in the 17th Century.

Your old mortar may have charcoal in it and could look like mud.

The charcoal is from the firing of the lime kiln and was mixed in with the fresh burnt lime when it was shoveled out of the kiln. You won't get that with bagged lime and the mud is where the sand was excavated and contained clay. You probably won't be able to get the same consistency as the old mortar, but I would make sure that the colour was similar if the holes are large.

Hydraulic lime has an initial set and a hydraulic set. This means that it will go stiff after a few hours (initial set), but the initial set can be broken if you pound the mortar with a hammer. It will become plastic again and will take the same 30 day period to achieve it's compressive strength, although it will not have the same initial set again and be sof for a while. This means you can leave it covered in the barrow/bucket overnight and come back to it in the morning. This process is called "knocking up" and brickies still use the term when they mix cement mortar, although the process is not the same.

Don't be tempted to use a putty based lime mortar, as this has no frost durability. Putty is for internal plaster and lime wash, NHL is for building outside with.

It's not rocket science, but you'll need to be done and dusted a month before the first frost, as this will blow the mortar apart if it's still wet.

To mix a small quantity you will need a barrow, a shovel, a larry (not the bloke) or a hammer and some elbow grease.




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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #2 on: 11 August, 2017, 07:14:13 pm »
Super informative post.   :thumbsup:  Thanks.
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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #3 on: 11 August, 2017, 08:47:01 pm »
Aunt Maud's post is excellent.

In France I use locally sourced St Astier Chaux which is NHL5 and have been using it on my almost complete barn conversion for 12 years :o  It sets extremely hard.  It's white and the mix will take its colour from the sand.  We can have very severe, long-lasting frosts here so NHL5 is probably best.  My first attempt I mixed 1:5..  It's still ok tho'..  IME you can mix lime mortar very moist without cracking if the sand content is higher.  I just bung it in the mixer as it's easier.  I hate to think how many M3 of mix my barn has taken since started.. 

I buy my (river) sand from the local builders merchant but I do notice when out on the bike that people do go out and dig (nick?) lots of sand from holes by the roadside!



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Aunt Maud

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #4 on: 12 August, 2017, 08:19:19 am »
Using NHL5 on soft masonry can cause damage similar to frost damage on historic brickwork which has been pointed with a cement mortar. The idea is, is that the hardness of the masonry unit (brick, stone, unfired clay/lime bricks) dictates the hardness of the mortar.

To ensure the masonry isn't damaged, the mortar should ideally be softer than the masonry even to the extent where it becomes sacrificial and wears away over time from the actions of frost, sun and rain. The mortar can be replaced much easier and at less cost than the masonry unit.

Softer mortar can be used successfully in cold climates if it has sufficient time to harden before the frost arrives. It regularly gets down to -20ºC where we are and I use NHL 3.5 with confidence on our soft, hand made 16C. bricks.

We even have a few infill panels in the external North wall made from unfired clay/shit/hay/lime bricks (you won't get them at Travis Perkins), which are exceptionally fragile and break easily. They are laid in a clay/cow shit/lime mortar, which is the same material as the bricks and have been there for a few hundred years. The fact that they don't get any rain on them helps ensure their durability.

The house is a single storey oak frame with brick infill and the walls are protected by a 24" eaves. I've worked on houses from the 14th. century which were built with soft limestone, these too had a very soft mortar in comparison to the masonry unit. I don't think I would use an NHL5 unless I had a granite walled house which was overlooking the coast and battered by hard winds and horizontal rain.

I too use a drum mixer and put in a couple of 8" rocks during mixing to give the pounding and chopping effect, otherwise the mixer just flips the mortar over if it's a stiff mix.

For pointing, you should be able to tip the mix out of a bucket and have it retain the form of the bucket, just like we did when making sand castles on the beach when kids.

For pointing rubble stonework I use a Tyrolean tray, a wide finger trowel and a gauging trowel. Fill the raked up joint above the level of the masonry and brush it off flush with a wire brush when it has had time to reach an initial set, normally the next morning if the sun hasn't been on it and I generally try to do pointing on overcast, cool days.

One last thing.

Never put any cement in a lime mortar to give it a bit of set. This is sometimes stated as necessary, but is misguided advice from modern brickies who are not used to working with lime and slowing down.

Historic lime mortar is lime, sand or clay/sand/shit and water. A pozzolan like crushed brick dust can be mixed in if you want it to set faster, but never ever use cement. You will be severely chastised by St. John when you reach the pearly gates if you do.

Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #5 on: 13 August, 2017, 09:14:44 am »
Quote
Using NHL5 on soft masonry can cause damage similar to frost damage on historic brickwork which has been pointed with a cement mortar. The idea is, is that the hardness of the masonry unit (brick, stone, unfired clay/lime bricks) dictates the hardness of the mortar.

Our granite/basalt walls should be ok then?  They are rubble about 70-80cm thick, originally just clay mortar.  I suppose repointing with lime is conservation heresy as is the idea of converting it into a house.  In a perfect world it would have been lovely to have restored it as a barn but as purchased, it was effectively useless and on the point of ruin.  Cycling exploration has shown it's a very rare beast locally as most barns so small were demolished or extended out of all recognition over a century ago. The very unusual and massive roof timbers were entirely shaped by adze and fit together beautifully with very similar craftsmanship to the hidden timbers of old French cathedrals.   

I noticed in Suffolk where bricks are soft that quite often the brick can be eroded away almost completely leaving just the surrounding pointing.  The original mortar would have been lime but someone has later repointed with Portland's finest.
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Aunt Maud

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #6 on: 13 August, 2017, 08:55:00 pm »
Above all else, I think it's more important to give it a new lease of life and keep them standing. Ours was scheduled for the wrecking ball and the only person insane enough to go anywhere near it was yours truly, which enabled me to get it for a song.

Does your clay mortar have lumps of quicklime in it like our mud bricks ?

For fun, timber conservation is a good one to look at if you want the experience the whole spectrum. I'm sure the things I've done here would make some conservation hair stand on end. As with all things conservation there are several degrees of anality.

Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #7 on: 14 August, 2017, 01:04:11 pm »
The old barn has no lime mixed in the clay.  The 70-80cm walls depend on contact stone to stone:



A bit crumbly once there's a hole in it.


Very tough lime mortar in the 1930s hangar, 50cm walls. I think they just made a trough and bunged stones and lime in!


Much more stable when pierced.
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Aunt Maud

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #8 on: 14 August, 2017, 01:38:52 pm »
And the cat's thinking.....'WOAH! Check out that skinny twig he's put up there".

Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #9 on: 14 August, 2017, 03:12:57 pm »
yeah . . .

In my (limited) building experience, the usual technique was to put the supporting lintel in place, then make the big hole. You seem to be doing a different way with your second hole.
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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #10 on: 14 August, 2017, 04:41:36 pm »
It was due to the mortar being tough enough not only to hold everything in place but to make it very hard to shift it at all! And it was a tiny window.

Technically simpler than the barn walls for which I did get the lintels in place before making the big 'ole.  I made seven window openings and two door openings. 

You get a lot of stone out of an opening and I used it build garden walls and stuff.



The above is from one opening.
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Aunt Maud

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #11 on: 14 August, 2017, 07:27:07 pm »
Ooooh!

How's your back?

Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #12 on: 15 August, 2017, 10:40:27 am »
Ooooh!

How's your back?

It's excellent thanks!  How's yours?

I did break my back a few years ago in an unrelated accident.  On advice I declined surgery and when I left hospital asked the surgeon who'd overseen my recovery if it was ok to resume building work; he said it was so I did.  The scar tissue was uncomfortable for a while but that's all.

It's tempting to rely on your back when lifting but expert advice is to work with your arms and legs and I try to remember that.
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Aunt Maud

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #13 on: 15 August, 2017, 11:40:13 am »
Mine's ok too. Like you, I'd rather take my time and use technique than try and muscle my way through it.

I rely heavily on a carpet trolly, aluminium Yale lever hoists, winches and a portable aluminium gantry.

I have a chainsaw powered sawmill for milling all my oak and scots pine framing timber, which is very effective at milling stems up to 11 meters long, so I'm always moving large stuff around with hand power. I found an engine hoist was useful for lifting large stones on to the carpet trolly, this can carry and move up to half a tonne over grass and was the best £50 I've spent on building equipment.

Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #14 on: 15 August, 2017, 05:16:35 pm »


 :thumbsup:



The cat takes all the credit tho'

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #15 on: 15 August, 2017, 11:29:53 pm »
Neat. Stone slabs from thewindow frame to the big blocks?
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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #16 on: 16 August, 2017, 07:14:00 am »
Yes, all reclaimed stuff



nicely weathered now.

 
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Aunt Maud

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #17 on: 16 August, 2017, 07:56:40 am »
Cat looks knackered and it's not advisable to grow your cannabis satvia by the front door, someone might notice.

Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #18 on: 16 August, 2017, 09:14:57 am »
Cat looks knackered and it's not advisable to grow your cannabis satvia by the front door, someone might notice.

  ;D
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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #19 on: 16 August, 2017, 09:17:43 am »
Beautiful work!

And thanks Aunt M and Asterix for loads of expertise on here.

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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #20 on: 16 August, 2017, 07:32:32 pm »
The cat is most excellent :)
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Re: Lime mortar
« Reply #21 on: 22 September, 2017, 01:14:34 pm »
Keep em coming its lovely to see.
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