which nipple driver?

[ElyDave]

make it from a screwdriver as the book says, or buy one? If so which one?

[dat]

I use this one from sapim.
http://www.justridingalong.com/sapim-standard-nipple-driver-no-option.html
Can't complain, it's better than a "fixed" nipple driver.

[Efrogwr]

I agree with DaT. It's really quick to use.

[sojournermike]

I've got a Problem Solvers version, that goes in an electric screwdriver chuck. Expensive for what it is, but works pretty well also.

[citoyen]

I have a Unior one which looks identical to that Sapim one. It's OK but I find the point too short. By coincidence, today I found my old home-made version in a box of old crap in the shed, made to Roger Musson's spec with a much more useful 3mm point.

Last time I built a wheel, I actually used an old spoke as a nipple driver - the hook end bent into a loop to form a handle. Screw the nipple backwards on the threaded end then poke it through the rim and screw onto the spoke. It has the added benefit of no risk of dropping the nipple inside the rim. More detail here:
https://makezine.com/projects/build-bike-spokenipple-driver-old-spoke/

[Brucey]

I've built very many wheels using either

a) a jeweller's screwdriver for shallow rims or

b) for deep rims a DIY tool made from an old spoke and nipple.

I showed my design for a DIY tool (which may or may not be similar to the one linked above, I have not looked) for deep rims to a local wheelbuilder (who has about x5 as many tools as I do for wheelbuilding) and he now uses a version that is similar to mine out of preference to anything else, when using deep section rims.

BTW the jeweller's screwdriver is fast and ergonomic for spinning the nipples on but it does not spin the nipples to the exact same depth; use of the Mk1 eyeball is required for that.

cheers

[citoyen]

Does yours look anything like this, Brucey?



(This is mine. It probably needs a bit of refinement in the shaping, and I ought to add a dab of threadlock to ensure the nipple stays in place, but it does the job very effectively.)

[mcshroom]

I use a multitool like this that was bought from one of the local discount shops.


The flat head screwdriver is pretty much the same shape as a nipple driver

[Ham]

the advantage of a nipple driver is that it will stop turning the head before the spoke reaches the end of the nipple, so a straight screwdriver isn't a replacement.

I used an old screwdriver, which I introduced to my Dremel. Didn't grind quite enough first time off, but it was perfect for me. Unless I was using it often, a purpose uilt one has little to offer. The spinning I did by twiddling the shaft in my fingers.

[ElyDave]

Thanks all, I'd seen the Unior one, seems to vary in price quite a bit depending on who has it in stock.

I don't think this will be a large volume thing, so I may just start with the bent spoke or butchered screwdriver for now.  I think I should be able to find one with a damaged end somewhere in a toolbox.

[Brucey]

Does yours look anything like this, Brucey?



(This is mine. It probably needs a bit of refinement in the shaping, and I ought to add a dab of threadlock to ensure the nipple stays in place, but it does the job very effectively.)

sort of;



shows a sort of design evolution.  The third one from the top is my favourite. The long tail of the 'handle' pokes out beyond my palm, and doesn't quite come back on the centreline of the tool. Cranking whilst articulating the wrist is very fast (provided you don't have bad wrists).

BTW if you don't have any threadlock to hand just squeezing the setting nipple in a set of pliers usually makes it stay put on the tool well enough, but not so well that it can't be readjusted again later. It is also instantly effective

I've made other tools; the beauty of this approach is that a new one can be made in a minute or two, if you misplace the previous one....

cheers

[ElyDave]

I assume you set the nipple on the home made tool to give 3mm of thread, same as the commercial drivers?

[Brucey]

I assume you set the nipple on the home made tool to give 3mm of thread, same as the commercial drivers?

no; the commercial drivers with 3mm projections are basically useless, unless you routinely build with spokes that are (IMHO) too short.

cheers

[ElyDave]

so how far on do you wind the spokes initially? I'm following Roger Musson's book to learn how to maintain and then hopefully build my own wheels, I think he recommends 3mm as the initial depth to thread the nipples to?

[Brucey]

it depends how long your spokes are and how confident you are of that.  The priorities of a good nipple driver are that

1) it allows assembly of wheels with deep rims (without losing nipples inside the rim etc...)
 and
2) that it saves time

not necessarily in that order.

There are plenty of people that build wheels with spokes that are too short, i.e. they finish at least 1mm below the bottom of the nipple slot. A 3mm pin on a nipple driver is OK for that. 

BTW my objection to spokes that are too short is not that the thread on the spoke or nipple will strip, it is that

a) the threaded part of the spoke may extend too far out of the bottom of the nipple, into a region that is not supported well and sees bending stress and

B) that nipples can crack (eg SCC) near the top and that when this happens there is  invariably a spoke that is too short inside the nipple. The stresses within the top of the nipple are much reduced and so is the risk of breakage if the spoke is full length.

So a driver that leaves the spoke end closer to the bottom of the nipple slot is much more useful IMHO, if you are (like you should be IMV) shooting for a spoke that finishes near the top of the nipple.

cheers

[Ham]

Here's a tip from someone who has only recently built their own wheels for the first time. That Roger Musson book? he advocates winding each nipple up to the 3mm point. I tried that and failed miserably. Instead I took each nipple down more or less evenly, right the way around, say 3 turns at a time to start off with, until the 3mm point, then carried on as suggested.  (I also kept track of each spoke tension, once it started to be under tension, so I could balance stuff out)

I can easily see that the "3mm takes too long" is right for people who have built many times before, but I venture to say, not for the likes of you and I who have to ask about these things.

(I'm pleased to say that my wheels have stayed 100% true despite a real thrashing on London's finest)

ETA - all my spokes finished the whole length of the nipple.

[citoyen]

I assume you set the nipple on the home made tool to give 3mm of thread, same as the commercial drivers?

My Unior driver has somewhat less than 3mm on the tip - probably only 1mm.

Being only an occasional wheelbuilder and never in a rush when doing the job, I find having 3mm on the tip of the driver makes it easier to lace the wheel. Nothing to do with spokes being too short - I generally aim for spokes that finish more or less flush with the top of the nipple. It does mean it takes longer to tension the spokes once the wheel is laced but that's not a problem for me. If you're an experienced wheelbuilder with lots of wheels to build, I can see that a shorter point might be desirable.

Anyway, one of the beauties of a home-made tool is that you can set the point to whatever length you want it to be.

[Brucey]

I agree. There is no doubt that a 3mm tip makes it easier to lace the wheel, but it does make the process a bit slower if you are rattling the nth one off.

BTW I've never tried counting turns as you screw the nipple on; for a start there are lots of turns and secondly I have (rightly or wrongly) supposed that because the nipple has an internal taper with a shallow angle, the spoke won't necessarily pick up consistently anyway.

BTW one of my mad ideas is to make a nipple setting tool that goes in a cordless drill, such that it goes into a deep rim and sets a consistent length but also releases easily.  With the type of tool I photographed above, it is normal to have to hold the nipple with a spoke key when backing the tool out. It is also necessary to use both hands when setting the nipple on the tool. I don't know if it is realistic to expect to be able to avoid these things entirely, but it won't stop me from wondering.

With a cordless drill in use, it may be possible to pick up the nipples quickly (and one-handedly) if the nipples are loaded into a "magazine" (as simple as a  drilled block of wood?) the right way up first.

cheers

[whosatthewheel]

Some tools are pointless, others are useful. I think a decent nipple driver is rather useful if you like to build wheels. I bought mine many years ago, can't remember the brand, I think it is a "generic one" rather than fancy... pretty sure I didn't pay much.

The handle rotates which is not something you can replicate bending a screwdriver. A bent spoke will of course work to an extent, but it will make your job a lot slower (and tedious).

[Brucey]

the DIY tools pictured above are for working on deep section single/no eyelet  rims (which is many of them these days) where you can lose a nipple inside the rim very easily.  A conventional nipple driver is of little value with such rims; the real problem is getting the nipple over the end of the spoke without losing it.

 Provided the DIY tool is made from a nice stainless steel spoke it spins very smoothly/easily in the hand; having a perfectly free-running handle is arguably a disadvantage in that it allows the end of the tool to flap about when you are trying to position it.

For shallow rims a nipple driver is a useful tool, but IME it is questionable whether it is really much faster or better than using something else. I most commonly use a jewellers screwdriver; it spins easily and quickly in the fingers (speed vs torque by choosing ones with different diameter handles), and it doesn't make your wrist ache.

BTW it is questionable whether typical nipple drivers are perfectly ergonomic; that the handle is parallel to the axis may be OK (ish) if you crank the tool by articulating your elbow, but it is less good than an inclined handle if you crank by articulating the wrist.

Needless to say there is a common feature with the tools I use which is that they are inexpensive (so easily replaced if mislaid), and they weigh virtually nothing, so they are easy to handle.  Some nipple drivers seem rather heavy to me; much heavier than they need to be and that tells after you have cranked one long enough to build several sets of wheels.

 Every nipple needs to go onto the spoke about twenty turns in total, so for a pair of 36h wheels you need to do about 1400 nipple turns. I found myself eyeing up a very small cordless drill recently and I may well try one again; larger cordless drills are clumsy to use IME.

BTW if you routinely build 'skew' (i.e. so that the inside spokes are trailing on one side and leading on the other) with stiff rims and a nipple driver you run the risk that all the outside spokes are tighter than all the inside spokes; the lengths are slightly different (typically by a turn or two, more in smaller wheels esp if they are build unbraced) and it is surprising how often the pattern imposed by a nipple driver persists in the finished wheel. 'Symmetric' spoking ( in which the inside spokes are all trailing or all leading) does not have the same risk attached.

cheers

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Velocity used to sell a nipple driver bit for cordless screwdrivers with an adjustable length spike but it isn't on their website any more. I found it very useful when building wheels commercially.

[Brucey]

cyclus still do one, I think.

cheers

[whosatthewheel]

I suppose a bit would be nice if the drill had a torque setting which is compatible with "spokes" torque. That way one could lace the wheel with a basic homogeneous tension and speed up the process of tensioning the wheel, which is easy to do by hand using a nipple driver, but impossible to do with a drill without torque setting or with a torque setting which is excessive (as they all are).

In fairness I have tried using a makita cordless, but it was a waste of time and it's also very heavy to handle

[Brucey]

this blog post is interesting
http://melodywheels.com.au/wheel-builders-toolbox/

but many of the links are already broken (even though the blog is only four years old).  He suggests a tool called the EVT mulfinger for nipple setting on deep rims;


https://www.efficientvelo.com/product/mulfinger-nipple-loading-tool/

It is basically a jeweller's screwdriver with a 2 degree taper ground onto an otherwise plain end (it is easy enough to make such a thing yourself).  You start the nipple with this and then use a nipple driver to wind it on all the way.

The bent spoke tool replaces both the nipple setting tool and the nipple driver, but it does take a few seconds to mount each nipple onto the tool. On the plus side it is extremely unlikely that you will knock the nipple off the bent spoke tool, which is quite easy to do with a mulfinger or similar.

cheers

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I supported the cordless screwdriver above the jig with shock cord. With the adjustable spikes on a building driver and a tensioning driver, torque setting was irrelevant. With a decent rim, there wasn't too much handwork needed afterwards, maybe 5-10 minutes.