Author Topic: Tyre width  (Read 10812 times)

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #25 on: 29 November, 2017, 11:47:00 pm »

so ... which new tubs have been offered on the market in the past 12 months? .... name them


you have missed the point completely

a) they have been making tubs for over a hundred years and they are still better for racing on than anything else

b) they are not trying to sell you (the amateur rider) tubs.  You are not going to see a fanfare or anything when the latest model handmade dugast tub comes on to the market.

Quote
only reason that pro's still use tubs is because...

...they are better tyres for them to race on.

Quote
with tubeless, they can ride till the end


maybe, yes, more slowly than if they had decent wheels and tyres, definitely.

Quote
same as disk brakes .... was froned upon, but next yeqar, they will be the 'in thing'

we shall see. Personally I think they are a stupid idea for racing because they make wheel changes slower for no good reason.

Teams that are sponsored by bicycle manufacturers may be forced to use them whether they like it or not.  I have yet to hear a pro cyclist say that disc brakes are any good for pro racing who wasn't (effectively) being paid to say it.

I wonder if they will ever carry disc brake wheels in neutral service vehicles; the chances of them fitting a different type of bike are pretty small, what with variations in disc size, thickness and positioning.

Please don't confuse those 'innovations' which folk (who can't/don't want to fix a puncture or re-rim a wheel etc) might choose to use on a regular basis with equipment that would be chosen for use in professional level road racing by professional cyclists; in many cases there isn't much comparison.

cheers

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #26 on: 29 November, 2017, 11:50:13 pm »
Jan Heine commented somewhere that he thinks that 32s are perfect for 700C.
Yes, though it’s worth noting that he has since developed 35 and 38mm 622s and that his comment about 32s was his impression.  It’s great that Jan does the experiments that he does but his findings are much less rigourously scientific than he would like to believe.
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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #27 on: 30 November, 2017, 09:09:50 am »
I know I'm over thinking this, but I'm stuck unable to ride for a couple of days and my brain is going weird places.

AIUI, the ideal contact with the road for minimum drag (also minimum grip) is a circular patch.  Narrow tyres tend to give an oval patch, along the road, fat tyres tend to give an oval patch, across the road.  The 'sweet spot' (for drag) is therefore the width that gives you a circular contact area, for your weight and preferred pressures. 

[disclaimer: the last time I rode PBP I was on 19mm tyres.  How fashions have changed.]
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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #28 on: 30 November, 2017, 10:25:22 am »
Anhalt didn’t ignore suspension losses but accounted for them by applying his usual 1.5× factor to the rolling-resistance values he measured on his drum. I think Damon Rinard came up with that scaling factor, but Anhalt says it tests out on the road. Andy Coggan thinks it should be 1.4×. Obviously it depends on the road and (to an unknown extent) the rider.
The whole concept of a scaling factor for suspension losses is wrong, because suspension losses increase with increasing pressure whilst casing losses (rolling resistance as measured on a drum) decrease with increasing pressure.

A couple of blog entries on the subject from the chap who now runs Silca
https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/part-4a-rolling-resistance-the-history-and-previous-works
https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/part-4b-rolling-resistance-and-impedance

Samuel D

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #29 on: 30 November, 2017, 11:04:31 am »
AIUI, the ideal contact with the road for minimum drag (also minimum grip) is a circular patch.  Narrow tyres tend to give an oval patch, along the road, fat tyres tend to give an oval patch, across the road.  The 'sweet spot' (for drag) is therefore the width that gives you a circular contact area, for your weight and preferred pressures.

Casual observation shows that even wide tyres have lengthwise contact patches. Longer contact patches may deliver more security by bridging across small slippery patches of roughly circular shape, such as oil drops, stones, or even wet leaves, but otherwise why would that contact-patch shape afford better traction?

The main source of rolling resistance in tyres is energy loss to hysteresis: the tyre returns less energy to the bicycle at the back of the contact patch than it took from the bicycle at the front of the contact patch, due to damping in the tread and casing. Wider tyres have less total flexure of the casing and tread, thus lower damping and rolling resistance. So rolling resistance keeps on decreasing as you increase tyre width, subject to the pressure being the same. I am aware of no “sweet spot”.

In practice, of course the pressure should not and anyway cannot be the same as the tyre gets wider, leaving lower suspension losses in the rider as the main reason wider tyres may roll more easily. (In some cases there’s a strict rolling-resistance benefit to wider tyres even at the lower pressures needed to leave casing tension unchanged, but you’d need lots of highlighter pens to show why.) If there is a practical sweet spot, it’s where the tyre width and model allow you to use up all of the tyre’s casing strength in the hoop-tension orientation at the pressure you prefer, thus proving that the casing is not needlessly strong (i.e. lossy) for your particular use. For light riders (like me) that’s usually impossible: the casings are always too strong. Put another way, heavier riders often enjoy a lower Crr.

The whole concept of a scaling factor for suspension losses is wrong, because suspension losses increase with increasing pressure whilst casing losses (rolling resistance as measured on a drum) decrease with increasing pressure.

It’s not obvious to me why the second part of your sentence follows from the first. Would you explain? Anhalt just multiplied the rolling resistance from drum testing by 1.5 to account for the approximate additional losses in the rider from road vibration. He isn’t claiming the factor always applies, and clearly it cannot. It will be higher on a rougher road, with a lossier rider, with a tyre at higher pressure, etc., etc. But if you’re going to make a chart of rolling resistance versus drag to attempt to find the best tyre width, you need to make some assumptions. This seems a reasonable one, no?

Joshua Poertner’s work is interesting too. He and Jan Heine have been a good tag team in favour of wider tyres. It’s curious that these fringe characters have popularised a movement that mainly profited the big players like Specialized.

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #30 on: 30 November, 2017, 11:50:21 am »
Casual observation shows that even wide tyres have lengthwise contact patches. Longer contact patches may deliver more security by bridging across small slippery patches of roughly circular shape, such as oil drops, stones, or even wet leaves, but otherwise why would that contact-patch shape afford better traction?
The contact *shape* doesn't afford better traction. High pressure per unit area cuts through slime, skog, mud (when it is a thin layer), even very thin layers of snow. A fat slick will ride on top of a thin layer of slime and slip, where a thin slick (assuming it is run at high pressure) will cut through.

This has been my experience. I've also noted that fatter tyres (35-37mm) with a thin tread pattern (eg, paselas) that have good traction in all conditions start to slip once the tread has worn off. On contrast I have ridden 25mm slick tyres such as krylions and gp4seasons and not had any slip over the same roads.
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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #31 on: 30 November, 2017, 11:53:38 am »
FWIW applying a fixed factor to estimate real-world rolling resistance vs rollers is probably as good as you can manage and is probably OK for comparing tyres of the same width.

But for comparing tyres of different widths it is probably not valid; almost certainly the problem 'scales' to some extent with the roughness of the road vs the section of the tyre. Thus a narrower tyre is liable to be disproportionately affected by a less-than-smooth surface.

cheers

Samuel D

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #32 on: 30 November, 2017, 12:36:47 pm »
The contact *shape* doesn't afford better traction. High pressure per unit area cuts through slime, skog, mud (when it is a thin layer), even very thin layers of snow. A fat slick will ride on top of a thin layer of slime and slip, where a thin slick (assuming it is run at high pressure) will cut through.

That’s a different claim than frankly frankie’s and one I’m inclined to believe – although I also believe these effects are usually dwarfed by differences in the tread compound.

Regarding Brucey’s point: Anhalt’s fixed factor already penalises narrow tyres more than wide ones, since the narrow ones have higher rolling resistance by his test method (i.e. at equal pressures, which does seem a bit suspect unless I’ve missed something).

I guess he’s only interested in the 20–28 mm range, over which the factor is presumably more useful than between, say, 23 mm and 40 mm tyres.

If anyone has done better work than Anhalt’s on this topic, I’d love to see it! It surprises me that more attention isn’t paid to ideal tyre width. Maybe it’s too nerdy for people to care about.

dim

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #33 on: 30 November, 2017, 12:41:52 pm »
WHY ROAD TUBELESS IS HERE TO STAY:

https://enve.com/why-road-tubeless-is-here-to-stay/

snip:
While road tubeless got off to a slow start, the technology is gaining momentum.  New aerodynamic, tire, and braking technologies are creating the perfect environment for wide adoption of tubeless tire technology.

Just think of the possibilities… You line up on the starting line at your next race, on a super-fast and stable SES tubeless wheelset, running confident handling 25mm tires with ultra-low rolling resistance and virtually no chance of flatting. Sounds like the kind of technology dreams are made of.


adding to that, many top end new road bikes are being sold with tubeless ready wheels and disc brakes as standard
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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #34 on: 30 November, 2017, 12:57:45 pm »
you are talking about amateur racing. There is lots of flannel and puffery produced by concerned parties, i.e. those who would happily sell you a load of new kit. Just parroting that changes nothing.

 I was talking about what the pros would choose to ride

cheers

Morat

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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #35 on: 30 November, 2017, 01:59:50 pm »
I think this topic shows up the difference between what is useful and practical for the amateur bike rider and what is only sold because "it's what the professionals use". If you're realistic about what is best for use outside racing then I (personally) think you'll end up with disk brakes since they're just so damn good and wheel changes are done in conjuction with tube changes.
I think they same will probably become true of tubeless in the future - I think it's a great theory but haven't quite made the plunge yet due to the horrific cost of tubeless tyres compared with tubes.

However, the sort of guy (nearly always a guy) who wears team lycra and fancies a Pinarello Dogma to ride once a week then fine, that's his choice but I can't imagine he'll be in the queue for a disk-braked endurance bike on 40mm tyres even if he draws the line at tubs.
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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #36 on: 30 November, 2017, 02:05:32 pm »
so .... IMHO, tubeless tyres are the way forward. I'm seriously considering buying a used Scott Addict 10 that I will use for some audax rides aswell as commuting, and the first thing that I will do is have some dent light wheels built, with a Dynamo hub, but the rims will be tubeless ready

The thing that puts me off tubeless tyres is the swapping between tyres during the season. Maybe when I have multiple wheel sets and multiple bikes and I can then swap the whole wheel, or just take the other bike when it's snowing, then I can make the swap. But even then i wonder how tubeless deals if I leave a bike with tubeless tyres and sealant sat there unmoving for 6 months?

I can see the benefits of tubeless, I'm just not so sure that for every use case they work.

J
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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #37 on: 30 November, 2017, 02:37:28 pm »
so .... IMHO, tubeless tyres are the way forward. I'm seriously considering buying a used Scott Addict 10 that I will use for some audax rides aswell as commuting, and the first thing that I will do is have some dent light wheels built, with a Dynamo hub, but the rims will be tubeless ready

The thing that puts me off tubeless tyres is the swapping between tyres during the season. Maybe when I have multiple wheel sets and multiple bikes and I can then swap the whole wheel, or just take the other bike when it's snowing, then I can make the swap. But even then i wonder how tubeless deals if I leave a bike with tubeless tyres and sealant sat there unmoving for 6 months?

I can see the benefits of tubeless, I'm just not so sure that for every use case they work.

J


I use tubeless as a rank amateur non-racer. It works for me and meets my needs. J has it - the biggest challenge is not being able to simply swap out a set of tyres for something else and what happens if you leave them unused for a few months. The former I've dealt with by swapping wheels between bikes or just keeping on riding the ones that are on there and the latter is a bit of wait and see. Worst case is that you need to top up the sealant and there's a lump of the stuff in one part of the tyre.

Kim

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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #38 on: 30 November, 2017, 02:45:14 pm »
The thing that puts me off tubeless tyres is the swapping between tyres during the season. Maybe when I have multiple wheel sets and multiple bikes and I can then swap the whole wheel, or just take the other bike when it's snowing, then I can make the swap. But even then i wonder how tubeless deals if I leave a bike with tubeless tyres and sealant sat there unmoving for 6 months?

This is why I still have tubes on my mountain bike (where I think the benefits of tubeless are more substantial than on the road).

frankly frankie

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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #39 on: 30 November, 2017, 04:31:57 pm »
The contact *shape* doesn't afford better traction.

A circular patch has the shortest 'edge' per area.  It is the edge where the friction occurs.  (Hence treaded tyres - more 'edge' per area.)
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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #40 on: 30 November, 2017, 05:08:03 pm »
The contact *shape* doesn't afford better traction.

A circular patch has the shortest 'edge' per area.  It is the edge where the friction occurs.  (Hence treaded tyres - more 'edge' per area.)
ooh, that's interesting. Citation?  (It's obviously true for treaded tyres, but is it true for slicks on a smooth road? )
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Re: Tyre width
« Reply #41 on: 30 November, 2017, 08:49:24 pm »
WHY ROAD TUBELESS IS HERE TO STAY:

https://enve.com/why-road-tubeless-is-here-to-stay/

snip:
While road tubeless got off to a slow start, the technology is gaining momentum.  New aerodynamic, tire, and braking technologies are creating the perfect environment for wide adoption of tubeless tire technology.

Just think of the possibilities… You line up on the starting line at your next race, on a super-fast and stable SES tubeless wheelset, running confident handling 25mm tires with ultra-low rolling resistance and virtually no chance of flatting. Sounds like the kind of technology dreams are made of.


adding to that, many top end new road bikes are being sold with tubeless ready wheels and disc brakes as standard

This sounds like just the sort of trite, salesman language that imediately puts me off whatever it is they are trying to sell! That's it you won't get me near a disc-braked tubeless roadbike now!
so .... IMHO, tubeless tyres are the way forward. I'm seriously considering buying a used Scott Addict 10 that I will use for some audax rides aswell as commuting, and the first thing that I will do is have some dent light wheels built, with a Dynamo hub, but the rims will be tubeless ready

The thing that puts me off tubeless tyres is the swapping between tyres during the season. Maybe when I have multiple wheel sets and multiple bikes and I can then swap the whole wheel, or just take the other bike when it's snowing, then I can make the swap. But even then i wonder how tubeless deals if I leave a bike with tubeless tyres and sealant sat there unmoving for 6 months?

I can see the benefits of tubeless, I'm just not so sure that for every use case they work.

J


I use tubeless as a rank amateur non-racer. It works for me and meets my needs. J has it - the biggest challenge is not being able to simply swap out a set of tyres for something else and what happens if you leave them unused for a few months. The former I've dealt with by swapping wheels between bikes or just keeping on riding the ones that are on there and the latter is a bit of wait and see. Worst case is that you need to top up the sealant and there's a lump of the stuff in one part of the tyre.

A lump of sealant stuck in one place in the tyre is a very good reason for not using tubeless in these circumstances, unless you like pogoing down the road.

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #42 on: 30 November, 2017, 10:17:54 pm »
WHY ROAD TUBELESS IS HERE TO STAY:

https://enve.com/why-road-tubeless-is-here-to-stay/

snip:
While road tubeless got off to a slow start, the technology is gaining momentum.  New aerodynamic, tire, and braking technologies are creating the perfect environment for wide adoption of tubeless tire technology.

Just think of the possibilities… You line up on the starting line at your next race, on a super-fast and stable SES tubeless wheelset, running confident handling 25mm tires with ultra-low rolling resistance and virtually no chance of flatting. Sounds like the kind of technology dreams are made of.


adding to that, many top end new road bikes are being sold with tubeless ready wheels and disc brakes as standard

This sounds like just the sort of trite, salesman language that imediately puts me off whatever it is they are trying to sell! That's it you won't get me near a disc-braked tubeless roadbike now!
so .... IMHO, tubeless tyres are the way forward. I'm seriously considering buying a used Scott Addict 10 that I will use for some audax rides aswell as commuting, and the first thing that I will do is have some dent light wheels built, with a Dynamo hub, but the rims will be tubeless ready

The thing that puts me off tubeless tyres is the swapping between tyres during the season. Maybe when I have multiple wheel sets and multiple bikes and I can then swap the whole wheel, or just take the other bike when it's snowing, then I can make the swap. But even then i wonder how tubeless deals if I leave a bike with tubeless tyres and sealant sat there unmoving for 6 months?

I can see the benefits of tubeless, I'm just not so sure that for every use case they work.

J


I use tubeless as a rank amateur non-racer. It works for me and meets my needs. J has it - the biggest challenge is not being able to simply swap out a set of tyres for something else and what happens if you leave them unused for a few months. The former I've dealt with by swapping wheels between bikes or just keeping on riding the ones that are on there and the latter is a bit of wait and see. Worst case is that you need to top up the sealant and there's a lump of the stuff in one part of the tyre.

A lump of sealant stuck in one place in the tyre is a very good reason for not using tubeless in these circumstances, unless you like pogoing down the road.

Doesn't actually happen like that;)

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #43 on: 01 December, 2017, 09:52:32 am »
When I see a “Fatbike” in the Peloton ........

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #44 on: 01 December, 2017, 08:51:57 pm »
As this topic has gone into tubeless and tubs, This weeks Cycling Weekly has a piece on tubeless,

Apparently Michelin and Continental have do not produce tubeless. "The professionals still prefer tubs". Chris Froome rode tubs  in his last 3  Tour wins.

The article covers Keith Bontrager's concerns but also refers to Mavic's work on integration.

You can see more on pages 34/5 in your local WHS or whoever. You can't miss it, there is a large picture of a section of a deep rim and tyre.

Roger. 

dim

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #45 on: 01 December, 2017, 09:12:26 pm »

so ... which new tubs have been offered on the market in the past 12 months? .... name them


you have missed the point completely

a) they have been making tubs for over a hundred years and they are still better for racing on than anything else

b) they are not trying to sell you (the amateur rider) tubs.  You are not going to see a fanfare or anything when the latest model handmade dugast tub comes on to the market.

Quote
only reason that pro's still use tubs is because...

...they are better tyres for them to race on.

Quote
with tubeless, they can ride till the end


maybe, yes, more slowly than if they had decent wheels and tyres, definitely.

Quote
same as disk brakes .... was froned upon, but next yeqar, they will be the 'in thing'

we shall see. Personally I think they are a stupid idea for racing because they make wheel changes slower for no good reason.

Teams that are sponsored by bicycle manufacturers may be forced to use them whether they like it or not.  I have yet to hear a pro cyclist say that disc brakes are any good for pro racing who wasn't (effectively) being paid to say it.

I wonder if they will ever carry disc brake wheels in neutral service vehicles; the chances of them fitting a different type of bike are pretty small, what with variations in disc size, thickness and positioning.

Please don't confuse those 'innovations' which folk (who can't/don't want to fix a puncture or re-rim a wheel etc) might choose to use on a regular basis with equipment that would be chosen for use in professional level road racing by professional cyclists; in many cases there isn't much comparison.

cheers

hydraulic disk brakes with thru axles will be the norm, reason being is that carbon clincher rims overheat when you do steep descents and actually melt/deform.

with tubeless tyres and hydraulic disc brakes, you won't need to do many wheel changes as punctures will self seal, (if they slash/sidewall damage, that would happen on a tub or even a Marahton Plus) and the rims won't overheat (and melt) .... plus, braking on Carbon wheels are crap in the rain if you use rim brakes (hydraulic disk brakes don't have this problem)

Disk brakes  will allow the manufactures to design even lighter (more expensive) carbon wheels/rims that can stop in the wet, not overheat and damage the rims, and which have tubeless tyres that are fast, and that don't stop you riding if you ride over a thorn

Check your car wheels .... do they have tubes?   :P

“No great mind has ever existed without a touch of madness.” - Aristotle

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #46 on: 01 December, 2017, 10:10:25 pm »
all of which means that gizmo-addicted amateurs may spend a fortune on all kinds of stuff (and probably will go more slowly if anything) and the pros (if they are given a chance to) will choose to stick with tubs, because they are faster....?

We shall in time see what happens; I suspect that if discs and/or tubeless tyres are adopted in the peloton, it will either happen if they are greatly improved or if the pros are coerced into using them, eg by their sponsors.

cheers

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #47 on: 02 December, 2017, 12:35:21 am »
I don’t see any reason to conflate discs and tubeless. Discs have obvious advantages and no real downside. Tubeless is definitely more of an unknown for most amateur riders.

I invested in getting tubeless rims with my last set of wheels, but with my setup I simply haven’t had enough punctures with tubes to care (I can only remember one in the whole of the last audax season, which is several thousand km).

Tubeless advocates seem to have very bad luck with punctures (on both their old tubed setup, and that their tubeless sealant has “fixed” for them) compared to my experience.

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #48 on: 02 December, 2017, 05:26:09 am »
no disadvantages?  Hmmm... last time I checked disc brakes made your bike heavier, less aerodynamic, and (in many cases) less comfortable too....

cheers

Samuel D

Re: Tyre width
« Reply #49 on: 02 December, 2017, 07:21:51 am »
The article covers Keith Bontrager's concerns but also refers to Mavic's work on integration.

You can see more on pages 34/5 in your local WHS or whoever. You can't miss it, there is a large picture of a section of a deep rim and tyre.

Would you summarise Keith Bontrager’s concerns in one sentence? There is a WHSmith in Paris, but only one – and it’s not the sort of place I often go.

Regarding discs and tubeless, they are tenuously related in that manufacturers are having trouble getting tubeless tyres to reliably stay on a variety of rims, and disc brakes can help in that quest. To the limited extent that tubeless allows lower pressures, that also gives much-needed comfort with forks stiff enough to work with disc brakes.

I think disc brakes are inevitable and imminent in road racing (not that I think that makes sense!). The bicycle-industrial complex will see to that. Tubeless tyres are another matter. Clinchers with low rolling resistance have been around for a long time and pro racers still insist on tubulars despite their cost, hassle, and (in many cases) non-availability from tyre sponsors.

But an interesting shift in pro racing recently has been the move toward Continental tubulars. Continental sponsors several pro teams now, and their tubulars have found favour with more teams at the expense of FMB, Dugast, Veloflex, Clement, etc. If Continental develops a tubeless road tyre – which the market’s appetite for novelty tech might eventually dictate regardless of objective merit – the intense temptation of forcing their teams to use them may overcome a lot of obstacles.