Author Topic: E bikes - 'the next big thing'  (Read 14109 times)

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #50 on: 06 June, 2018, 10:28:24 am »
They might. But then PTWs are the ostensible reason for many of the barriers already.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #51 on: 06 June, 2018, 12:08:04 pm »
They might. But then PTWs are the ostensible reason for many of the barriers already.

Excellent point.  Maybe they'll finally realise that barriers are useless and make cycling illegal instead.

seraphina

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #52 on: 06 June, 2018, 01:04:34 pm »
Ham - not stalking you - but just back from the Somme bay and probably saw just as many e-bikes as normal bikes. Mostly ridden by slightly older folk.

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #53 on: 06 June, 2018, 02:29:01 pm »
I'm not sure I've ever seen two child seats on one bike. Two children, sure, in places where it's normal to carry kids in your arms or sitting on the crossbar etc rather than using special seats, but two seats on one bike allows Westerners to use a normal size bike for whole-family transport and electric motors give them the power to do it.

They are available, either as 2 on a long tail bike or a Motherbike or Mamachari (the Japanese ones). It is very common in the Netherlands, unsurprisingly, but they do happen here. When I ended up with my Helios, I was originally looking at a Gazelle Bloom or similar motherbike.
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Tigerrr

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #54 on: 09 June, 2018, 07:53:50 am »
Being a fan, pleased to see more electric comment here. I still think there ought to be a separate thread area. Not having one is a bit typical of the UK cycling attitude to bikes overall. 'Not really bikes/cyclists' is commonplace.
I have 2 now - a lovely home conversion brompton using a nano hub motor, twist throttle control and 9amphr battery, and a Trek e-mtb hub motor job. They both get continual use by me and Mrs Tiger. The Trek is just the job for the top of the narrowboat, negotiating rough riverside and canal towpath, heavily laden with panniers of supplies. The brommie is light and folds away.
Neither is fast but neither am I these days. These bikes just eliminate the hills though.
The industry has been slow to get going in the UK, leaving a wild west vacuum for bad-boy internet hombrew bikes with illegal high speed motors. (Like my first 40kph model -I never went higher than level 5 of 10 power settings).
In time the UK trade will wake up and see the potential market here and they will be everywhere.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #55 on: 19 June, 2018, 06:52:49 pm »
An email from LBS tells me that eBromptons are a thing and available from a shop near me. As of yet I'm still untempted to own either a folder or an electric bike. But who knows?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #56 on: 20 June, 2018, 01:46:48 pm »
Noticed today in front of the bargain warehouse discount place in town: a £299 (reduced from £799!) e-BSO - battery on the rear rack and a rear hub motor. I wonder if the median ebike does more miles than the median bike, and if this is less than the typical mileage to first failure...

Kim

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #57 on: 20 June, 2018, 01:53:54 pm »
Noticed today in front of the bargain warehouse discount place in town: a £299 (reduced from £799!) e-BSO - battery on the rear rack and a rear hub motor. I wonder if the median ebike does more miles than the median bike, and if this is less than the typical mileage to first failure...

Interesting question.  My gut instinct says they probably do, as they're more likely to be bought for mobility or transport rather than 'exercise'.

I assume the typical mileage to first failure is about the same, given that BSOs tend to be withdrawn from service due to a puncture, and corrosion does the rest.  Are shoddy Li-ion battery packs more reliable than BSO tyres?  Probably.

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #58 on: 20 June, 2018, 04:39:54 pm »
Interesting question.  My gut instinct says they probably do, as they're more likely to be bought for mobility or transport rather than 'exercise'.
Yeah, that was my guess, and for the same reasons.
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I assume the typical mileage to first failure is about the same, given that BSOs tend to be withdrawn from service due to a puncture, and corrosion does the rest.  Are shoddy Li-ion battery packs more reliable than BSO tyres?  Probably.
I was thinking visitations might get fixed on a utility-type bike, but that the spokes on the rear wheel would start going (on the assumption that the wheels are not going to be particularly well built, and that there may well be a heavy load on the rack in use). I suppose the crappy V-brakes might be next, or the gearing; I didn't actually check what it was, but it looked to have cheapo twist shifters.

Kim

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #59 on: 20 June, 2018, 04:59:13 pm »
Ah, but the beauty of (hub motor) electric assist is that the bike remains eminently usable when the shifting system fails to the traditional BSO default gear of small:small  :)

It does seem worryingly likely that the electrckery might outlast the brakes (I'm going to count the rim going out of true necessitating disconnection of the V-brake as a brake failure for these purposes).

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #60 on: 20 June, 2018, 05:28:55 pm »
I bought a eBSO 3 years ago. A Woosh. OK, I got it off eBay for less than half its retail price, but it had only done 200 miles. Basically it fell apart around me on my commute to work over the next few months. Cheap componentry, heavy frame, but a half decent mid-drive motor system. I set about upgrading it, but soon realised I was throwing good money after bad. I learned my lesson and splashed out a lot more on a decent machine that has done c.5000 miles with only minor niggles.
Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

Chris S

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #61 on: 20 June, 2018, 08:14:26 pm »
Wow, they're quick aren't they? I was in a line of traffic following a cyclist through Great Ayton yesterday, and it was only when we were climbing out of the village/town (I dunno, it's borderline) at 20mph I thought - "Hang on... Panniers, Hi Vis, Rucksack - doing 20mph uphill? I smell Magic Smoke!" and sure enough, he had The Gubbins right there on his bike.

The traffic didn't really know what to do. He was too fast to overtake easily, but clearly the motorists all wanted to be doing 30mph, not 20. I guess ideally, e-bikes need to be able to do 30mph, so they can join the traffic flow without creating a line of muttering motorists behind. Now, I know as cyclists we don't give a Flying Fuck about muttering motorists, but as a motorist who just might have somewhere to be, I have some sympathy for the other side of the argument as well.

ETA: I accept this whole speed thing isn't fair.

Stuck behind a tractor: "Ah FFS, a tractor!"
Stuck behind a cyclist: "FFS!!! YA TWAT, GET OUT OF MY WAAAAY!! YA DON'T EVEN PAY ROAD TAX"

etc etc

Kim

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #62 on: 20 June, 2018, 08:38:21 pm »
They're supposed to be limited to 15.5mph, thobut.  Pretty normal cyclist speed (admittedly not usually uphill).

Chris S

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #63 on: 20 June, 2018, 08:41:23 pm »
They're supposed to be limited to 15.5mph, thobut.  Pretty normal cyclist speed (admittedly not usually uphill).

Quite. Not this guy.

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #64 on: 21 June, 2018, 08:59:46 am »
The traffic didn't really know what to do. He was too fast to overtake easily, but clearly the motorists all wanted to be doing 30mph, not 20. I guess ideally, e-bikes need to be able to do 30mph, so they can join the traffic flow without creating a line of muttering motorists behind. Now, I know as cyclists we don't give a Flying Fuck about muttering motorists, but as a motorist who just might have somewhere to be, I have some sympathy for the other side of the argument as well.
This is an issue I have with the current version of eBikes. In town traffic, regular bicycles keep up fine and just become part of traffic.  As soon as you hit a 30 zone, to the average driver, cyclists become a rolling chicane. If the bike can't do 25, then they are going to overtake, so 15mph is too slow to be "part of traffic".  Yet 15mph is too fast for shared use paths and other places where you encounter pedestrians.

LEE

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #65 on: 21 June, 2018, 09:12:53 am »
An email from LBS tells me that eBromptons are a thing and available from a shop near me. As of yet I'm still untempted to own either a folder or an electric bike. But who knows?

An electric Brompton appeals to me more than any other form of eBike at the moment.  It strikes me as an eminently practical commuter tool.  Depends on weight/range of course but you can stash it in a car boot, take it on bus and train, stash it under your office desk and ride to the office without getting sweaty.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #66 on: 21 June, 2018, 09:33:13 am »
An email from LBS tells me that eBromptons are a thing and available from a shop near me. As of yet I'm still untempted to own either a folder or an electric bike. But who knows?

Can you actually buy one? AFAIK they haven’t shipped any to customers yet. The website is still taking pre-orders for delivery in “early 2018”.

Kim

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #67 on: 21 June, 2018, 01:06:38 pm »
I think they've rolled some demo models out to dealers as a beta-test, though, so it may refer to that.

quixoticgeek

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #68 on: 21 June, 2018, 01:23:47 pm »
This is an issue I have with the current version of eBikes. In town traffic, regular bicycles keep up fine and just become part of traffic.  As soon as you hit a 30 zone, to the average driver, cyclists become a rolling chicane. If the bike can't do 25, then they are going to overtake, so 15mph is too slow to be "part of traffic".  Yet 15mph is too fast for shared use paths and other places where you encounter pedestrians.

The point of e-bikes is that they are bikes, that are slightly easier to ride. They are designed to have all the flaws that a normal bike has, that is the point. As soon as you start making them go quicker or anything else, you cross over into the e-moped territory and things will get messy.

Today Amsterdam confirmed that it is going to be banning all bromfiets/snorfiets from the cycle lanes. Currently small mopeds, limited to 50kph are allowed in the cycle lane, they don't need a license and they don't need a helmet. And they are an utter menace. Their kinetic envelope is bigger, they are driven by morons, and they seem to see cyclists as something fun to play with. In 2019 they will have to wear helmets and ride in the car lane. But this has opened up an interesting debate about what happens to the higher performance pedal assist ebikes, that can do more than 25kph?

As part of this discussion with a group of dutch friends the topic of charging of pedal assist bikes came up. Are they still in the 30 different standard connectors for charging a battery state?

Maybe if we could get the EU to stop breaking the internet, they could make a standard for pedal assist bike charging.

J

PS I am explicitely saying pedal assist bike, to differentiate from electric mopeds, electric scooters, electric motorbikes, electric unicorn hover carpets, etc... As it seems that in many non cycle circles, the term e-bike isn't always interpreted the same.
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Kim

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #69 on: 21 June, 2018, 01:45:13 pm »
As part of this discussion with a group of dutch friends the topic of charging of pedal assist bikes came up. Are they still in the 30 different standard connectors for charging a battery state?

There can't be that many combinations for mis-using an XLR connector, Shirley? :)


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Maybe if we could get the EU to stop breaking the internet, they could make a standard for pedal assist bike charging.

To be fair, a waterproof box with a standard AC mains socket inside it and some sort of provision for a lock would solve the problem today.  E-bikes (including the more motorcycley ones) have a significant advantage over larger electric vehicles, in that they can charge in a reasonable time from a 10A/230V supply, and the battery and mains charger are of a size that can reasonably be carried by a person.

Given that you can take your battery into your workplace/cafe/hotel/whatever and plug it in to a wall socket, there's a lot less need for a standardised public infrastructure to support the journeys that exceed the battery range than there is for charging cars[1].

If there's to be a DC charging standard, I think it's going to require the EU doing something sensible again (perhaps they'll go after the laptop power bricks next, and sweep up the e-bike chargers in the process), or (much less likely) for one or two big manufacturers to achieve market dominance, so everyone wants to copy their connectors.


[1] While it wouldn't be too tricky to make an e-bike charger speak to an AC EVSE, it's probably for the  best (at least in the short term) that the Mennekes connectors are impractically large for carrying on a pedal cycle.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #70 on: 21 June, 2018, 02:00:23 pm »
There can't be that many combinations for mis-using an XLR connector, Shirley? :)

Oh you'd be surprised...

Quote

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Maybe if we could get the EU to stop breaking the internet, they could make a standard for pedal assist bike charging.

To be fair, a waterproof box with a standard AC mains socket inside it and some sort of provision for a lock would solve the problem today.  E-bikes (including the more motorcycley ones) have a significant advantage over larger electric vehicles, in that they can charge in a reasonable time from a 10A/230V supply, and the battery and mains charger are of a size that can reasonably be carried by a person.

Yes and no. If you started putting schuko points on lamp posts down the city street, you're going to need to find someway to stop people abusing those to power their homes. etc...

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Given that you can take your battery into your workplace/cafe/hotel/whatever and plug it in to a wall socket, there's a lot less need for a standardised public infrastructure to support the journeys that exceed the battery range than there is for charging cars[1].

Yes and no. You and I can easily take the several kg of battery into the office, or up the stairs to a flat. But what if you're not as able bodied? For many an pedal assist bike is a viable alternative to a car as an accessibility device, yet, for it to work, they need a charging solution that doesn't involve lugging heavy devices around.

The weight of pedal assist bikes is oft cited as the reason that some do not go for them. Especially in a country where half the bike parking spaces are the upper tear of a double decker arrangement ala:




Quote

If there's to be a DC charging standard, I think it's going to require the EU doing something sensible again (perhaps they'll go after the laptop power bricks next, and sweep up the e-bike chargers in the process), or (much less likely) for one or two big manufacturers to achieve market dominance, so everyone wants to copy their connectors.

Ooh, that would be nice. We have too many laptop connector standards too...

Quote

[1] While it wouldn't be too tricky to make an e-bike charger speak to an AC EVSE, it's probably for the  best (at least in the short term) that the Mennekes connectors are impractically large for carrying on a pedal cycle.

Electric car charging connectors are obviously designed by those who do not charge their cars on city streets. The number of cars I see with a big connector sticking out 300mm form the car, into the bike lane, or over the pavement. Just begging to be snapped off by a careless pedestrian or cyclist. A lower profile design that is closer to the vehicle would be nice, something that leads the cable downwards.

J
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Kim

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Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #71 on: 21 June, 2018, 02:35:43 pm »
To be fair, a waterproof box with a standard AC mains socket inside it and some sort of provision for a lock would solve the problem today.  E-bikes (including the more motorcycley ones) have a significant advantage over larger electric vehicles, in that they can charge in a reasonable time from a 10A/230V supply, and the battery and mains charger are of a size that can reasonably be carried by a person.

Yes and no. If you started putting schuko points on lamp posts down the city street, you're going to need to find someway to stop people abusing those to power their homes. etc...

Maybe.  Easy to do if there's some sort of payment system (just make it more expensive than domestic rate per kWh), but that adds massive complexity.


Quote
Yes and no. You and I can easily take the several kg of battery into the office, or up the stairs to a flat. But what if you're not as able bodied? For many an pedal assist bike is a viable alternative to a car as an accessibility device, yet, for it to work, they need a charging solution that doesn't involve lugging heavy devices around.

The weight of pedal assist bikes is oft cited as the reason that some do not go for them. Especially in a country where half the bike parking spaces are the upper tear of a double decker arrangement ala:

I'm acutely aware of these issues.  Barakta has a battery she can't safely carry on a tricycle that's a two-person job to get through our front door (it has to be lifted and rotated around its long axis).  To be fair, I specified the battery so she'd be able to do >100km without charging, which means it's harder to lift, but almost never a problem.  A secure garage with a door at street level would be a game-changer, though.

TBH, I reckon what's really needed is a move to providing more secure accessible bike parking, with e-bike charging as part of that spec.

(In the UK we also have this delightful situation where makers of secure bike lockers have never seen a city bike.  Anything with wide, swept-back bars or a stem above touring bike height simply doesn't fit.)


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Electric car charging connectors are obviously designed by those who do not charge their cars on city streets. The number of cars I see with a big connector sticking out 300mm form the car, into the bike lane, or over the pavement. Just begging to be snapped off by a careless pedestrian or cyclist. A lower profile design that is closer to the vehicle would be nice, something that leads the cable downwards.

Ohgod, yes.  I mean, they've designed the connectors to be sturdy, waterproof, lock in place and resist a reasonable amount of errant unplugging force, but so many of the vehicle manufacturers (particularly for plug-in hybrids and electric versions of existing models) seem to have borrowed the design of a petrol filler cap without further thought.  Electrons are quite happy to flow uphill and round corners, so putting the connector on the front or back of the vehicle so the cable can always reach and be out of the way of people trying to get past the side is obvious.  Not having an expensive flap sticking out for vandals to snap off would be a good idea, too.  (Actually retaining the connector under a flap probably isn't a good idea, as there needs to be provision for J Random Rapid Charger User to rock up in the adjacent bay and pull the cable from your car when it unlocks at the end of charging.)

Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #72 on: 21 June, 2018, 03:13:47 pm »
This is an issue I have with the current version of eBikes. In town traffic, regular bicycles keep up fine and just become part of traffic.  As soon as you hit a 30 zone, to the average driver, cyclists become a rolling chicane. If the bike can't do 25, then they are going to overtake, so 15mph is too slow to be "part of traffic".  Yet 15mph is too fast for shared use paths and other places where you encounter pedestrians.

The point of e-bikes is that they are bikes, that are slightly easier to ride. They are designed to have all the flaws that a normal bike has, that is the point. As soon as you start making them go quicker or anything else, you cross over into the e-moped territory and things will get messy.

That's perfectly reasonable, and I understand how conflict arises between fast ebikes and slow ebikes/regular bikes on dedicated cycle ways, in much the same way as conflict exists between any sort of bike and pedestrians on a shared use path (when one user is being an arse). Where dedicated sensible bike paths exist, the too fast and too slow issue of 15mph isn't a problem.
I'm simply talking about use on the road (and my experience is only in the UK) - stopping assistance at 15mph means that the ebike remains seen as an impediment to traffic (as it would if it were only human powered), rather than as being traffic. I believe that current UK law says that if your bike is capable of >250W, or >15mph then it's an electric moped and needs licence plate, tax, insurance, helmet, etc. and is not permitted on cycle paths.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #73 on: 21 June, 2018, 04:57:36 pm »

Maybe.  Easy to do if there's some sort of payment system (just make it more expensive than domestic rate per kWh), but that adds massive complexity.

In developed countries with a near universal transport RFID token (i.e. OV ChipKaart), it's less problematic. But, I would question if schuko has the durability for this sort of usage cycle...

Quote

I'm acutely aware of these issues.  Barakta has a battery she can't safely carry on a tricycle that's a two-person job to get through our front door (it has to be lifted and rotated around its long axis).  To be fair, I specified the battery so she'd be able to do >100km without charging, which means it's harder to lift, but almost never a problem.  A secure garage with a door at street level would be a game-changer, though.

TBH, I reckon what's really needed is a move to providing more secure accessible bike parking, with e-bike charging as part of that spec.

(In the UK we also have this delightful situation where makers of secure bike lockers have never seen a city bike.  Anything with wide, swept-back bars or a stem above touring bike height simply doesn't fit.)

I appreciate that in your case I'm very much preaching to the converted.

I wonder if there is an argument to be had for having bikes with multiple battery slots. Lets face it for most people, they are taking the bike on at most a 20km round trip, that's not going to need much power capacity, this is the whole range anxiety problems etc... from E-cars. But if rather than a single 500wh battery, you have a pair of 250wh batteries. On most days you can take the 250w, and leave one at home, reducing your weight, but when you want to do a long ride to the coast for pancakes, you can bring both. That would bring each battery into the sub 1.5kg category.

There also needs to be better thought taken to battery unit security. I know many pedal assist bikes have a lock to protect the battery, but that lock is theatrical at best. People lock their bike with a €100 lock, but the battery is held in with a key of laughably poor quality.

Round these parts I'd love to see a pedal assist cargo trike sharing scheme, like the greenwheels car hire scheme, so you can book a bike for €2.50 an hour, to do a run to the garden center, etc... But that requires cooperation from the Gemente, suitable charging infrastructure, and users with clue...

Given the frame of the bike is metal, surely there should be a mechanism to have a charging dock like you have with Boris bikes. Click the bike into the dock, swipe your OV chipkaart, walk away... Or am I overthinking things?

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Ohgod, yes.  I mean, they've designed the connectors to be sturdy, waterproof, lock in place and resist a reasonable amount of errant unplugging force, but so many of the vehicle manufacturers (particularly for plug-in hybrids and electric versions of existing models) seem to have borrowed the design of a petrol filler cap without further thought.  Electrons are quite happy to flow uphill and round corners, so putting the connector on the front or back of the vehicle so the cable can always reach and be out of the way of people trying to get past the side is obvious.  Not having an expensive flap sticking out for vandals to snap off would be a good idea, too.  (Actually retaining the connector under a flap probably isn't a good idea, as there needs to be provision for J Random Rapid Charger User to rock up in the adjacent bay and pull the cable from your car when it unlocks at the end of charging.)

Front or rear, unless they can come up with a more low profile connector design causes issues with when you want to cut through between two parted charging cars in an on street charging situation...

Then of course there is no standard location for the charging port, so you end up with cables trailing everywhere, and with excess curled up to catch you unawares...

And then there's the stupid councils that put the charging post on the pavement, eating into pedestrian space... etc...

There's a lot to rant about the current state of e-cars...

That's perfectly reasonable, and I understand how conflict arises between fast ebikes and slow ebikes/regular bikes on dedicated cycle ways, in much the same way as conflict exists between any sort of bike and pedestrians on a shared use path (when one user is being an arse). Where dedicated sensible bike paths exist, the too fast and too slow issue of 15mph isn't a problem.
I'm simply talking about use on the road (and my experience is only in the UK) - stopping assistance at 15mph means that the ebike remains seen as an impediment to traffic (as it would if it were only human powered), rather than as being traffic. I believe that current UK law says that if your bike is capable of >250W, or >15mph then it's an electric moped and needs licence plate, tax, insurance, helmet, etc. and is not permitted on cycle paths.

There are two issues at play here:

a) Moronic road designers who think a shared use pedestrian/cycle lane is a good idea.

b) Moronic drivers who think that they are obligated to over take a vehicle that is slower than them. Whether it is safe to do so or not.
   bi) there is a special case of (b), which is cyclists on the shared use lanes of (a), that feel they have an obligation to get past the pedestrians, regardless to the safety of doing so. But then often the bipedal obstacle is also walking in such a way as to provide maximum obstruction (keep left, or keep right, just make your bloody mind up and don't walk down the fscking middle!)...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: E bikes - 'the next big thing'
« Reply #74 on: 23 June, 2018, 09:33:52 pm »
An email from LBS tells me that eBromptons are a thing and available from a shop near me. As of yet I'm still untempted to own either a folder or an electric bike. But who knows?

Can you actually buy one? AFAIK they haven’t shipped any to customers yet. The website is still taking pre-orders for delivery in “early 2018”.
From the email:
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We’ve demo Bromptons you can test ride – and we’re the only dealer in the South West with one of the new Brompton Electrics for you to try! (If you want to take a Brompton for a spin, call 0117 929 2151 or email us to book a time.)
It's Mud Dock in Bristol, if you're interested.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.