Author Topic: Disc brakes in the pro peloton  (Read 13418 times)

Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #25 on: 28 March, 2018, 04:36:29 pm »
Quote
but disc brakes give a disadvantage, not an advantage, as Lennard Zinn describes here (scroll down to “Rim brakes vs. disc brakes”).

My point was really about riders in a race should have bikes of the same performance. Either everyone has disc brakes, disc wheels etc or no one has them.

What, like exactly the same?  Like in strict one-design dinghy racing?  Because even there, people find advantages.  Usually it makes racing more expensive and exclusive, not less, because it means it's the competitors with lots of time and money who can work out which subtle advancements are actually useful, and who can buy a new set of sails every season.  I remember Chris Boardman saying the same when the UCI introduced restrictions on something or other: that BC had the resources to fund the fine measurement labs that could differentiate what gave them a performance advantage, while everyone else was reduced to guesswork. 

Face it, cycling is a sport that is fundamentally about using technology to enhance man's capabilities.  If you don't like that, it isn't the sport for you.

Boardman would say that, wouldn't he? Because he used a bike that gave him an advantage to win an Olympic title. One might say he "cheated", same goes for LeMond in the 89 Tour.

By same bike, I mean something like bikes from the 70s, all had steel frames of the same basic design with same diameter tubing, Campagnolo Super/Nuovo Record parts, alloy sprint rims etc. They weren't exactly the same but had the same performance. I don't mean current riders should be using 70s bikes, they should be riding current bikes, they don't have to be same but the same performance, no rider should have an advantage because of their equipment.


Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #26 on: 28 March, 2018, 04:41:00 pm »
Basically, manufacturers want pros to use disc brakes to sell disc brakes to the public, obviously.

It's not just the brakes, people have to buy new bikes/frames, so there's a lot of money involved.


Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #27 on: 28 March, 2018, 04:45:31 pm »
But, for many many riders, it is progress.

Karla

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #28 on: 28 March, 2018, 05:25:17 pm »
Quote
but disc brakes give a disadvantage, not an advantage, as Lennard Zinn describes here (scroll down to “Rim brakes vs. disc brakes”).

My point was really about riders in a race should have bikes of the same performance. Either everyone has disc brakes, disc wheels etc or no one has them.

What, like exactly the same?  Like in strict one-design dinghy racing?  Because even there, people find advantages.  Usually it makes racing more expensive and exclusive, not less, because it means it's the competitors with lots of time and money who can work out which subtle advancements are actually useful, and who can buy a new set of sails every season.  I remember Chris Boardman saying the same when the UCI introduced restrictions on something or other: that BC had the resources to fund the fine measurement labs that could differentiate what gave them a performance advantage, while everyone else was reduced to guesswork. 

Face it, cycling is a sport that is fundamentally about using technology to enhance man's capabilities.  If you don't like that, it isn't the sport for you.

Boardman would say that, wouldn't he? Because he used a bike that gave him an advantage to win an Olympic title. One might say he "cheated", same goes for LeMond in the 89 Tour.

By same bike, I mean something like bikes from the 70s, all had steel frames of the same basic design with same diameter tubing, Campagnolo Super/Nuovo Record parts, alloy sprint rims etc. They weren't exactly the same but had the same performance. I don't mean current riders should be using 70s bikes, they should be riding current bikes, they don't have to be same but the same performance, no rider should have an advantage because of their equipment.

One might say that, in the same way that one could say "The illuminati rule the world" or "Mr Blobby was the most talented musician the world has ever seen".  There's no law of physics stopping one saying any of those things.  Just as in both those cases though, one would be wrong. 

Sports are artificial constructs, confined by their rules and their governing bodies.  If they weren't artificial, they'd be total war. There's no natural reason why football teams should have eleven players, cricket bats should be 108mm wide or basketball players shouldn't be split into leagues based on height - it's all completely arbitrary, curated by those in power to make the games how they want them.  The rules aren't natural or intrinsic, so neither is cheating: the only way to cheat is to step outside of the rules, and if you stay within them, you haven't cheated - period.  Boardman's and Lemond's bikes were both within the rules, and were passed by the commissaries, so they didn't cheat.  If you think they did?  Well your opinion is at odds with the sport of cycling, and is of no consequence whatsoever.  Enjoy fulminating in your shed about how everything was better in the 1970s  :demon:

mattc

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #29 on: 28 March, 2018, 06:55:09 pm »
Face it, cycling is a sport that is fundamentally about using technology to enhance man's capabilities.  If you don't like that, it isn't the sport for you.
My dear chap, that is nonsense. Track cycling is almost always the most exciting branch of the sport, and they use considerably less tech than Froome et al.

(Amateur elite track bikes are far more affordable than road racing bikes, let alone competitive TT bikes.)

If you watch footage of races from the black-and-white era and wonder how much more exciting they'd be with integrated shifters etc, then I don't think it is the sport for you.
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Karla

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #30 on: 28 March, 2018, 08:01:09 pm »
I'd suggest you ask a track rider  how much his double discs cost ...

... except you won't keep up with him as you've just got rid of your bike, because it's technology innit.  Oops.

mattc

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #31 on: 28 March, 2018, 08:08:57 pm »
I'd suggest you ask a track rider  how much his double discs cost ...

... except you won't keep up with him as you've just got rid of your bike, because it's technology innit.  Oops.
No silly - I could just buy a motorbike. Much faster for less money.

But we're drifting away; explain to me why these "double discs", or e-shifting have made the racing more exciting.

Here's a visual prop for you to work from:


(It's the 2018 womens Omnium)
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

zigzag

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #32 on: 29 March, 2018, 12:19:25 am »
global cycling industry is too small and poor to hire highly skilled engineers and product designers, hence many new products are released as beta versions to be tested and adopted/rejected by consumers....

I really don’t think that applies to Shimano, with 12,000 plus employees and a turnover of $2.5 billion in 2013.

well, shimano are the largest in cycling, but $2.5bn for a global market leader is still a tiny amount (and a big chunk of that revenue is their fishing reels etc.), but i agree that they are the ones that can afford innovation and therefore design products that work quite well.

Karla

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #33 on: 29 March, 2018, 12:32:23 am »
I'd suggest you ask a track rider  how much his double discs cost ...

... except you won't keep up with him as you've just got rid of your bike, because it's technology innit.  Oops.
No silly - I could just buy a motorbike. Much faster for less money.

But we're drifting away; explain to me why these "double discs", or e-shifting have made the racing more exciting.

Here's a visual prop for you to work from:


(It's the 2018 womens Omnium)

You were saying how track bikes were so cheap.  Tracks are also indoors, which allows you to run double discs, which allow you to go faster but at a tremendous cost.  The bikes in the photo you posted are worth several grand each - and even some of the helmets are worth £300.  Once you've removed all the cheap and obvious ways of getting faster such as adding extra gears, the subtler ways that are still employed, such as a disc wheels front and back or extra tunnel tweaking, tend to be hideously expensive.  Your regulatory attempt backfires. 

Even if we could successfully ban everything that you and Samuel don't like, would that make the racing more exciting?  No - for the same reason as why if you took the F1 drivers and put them in VW Beetles, F1 would lose stature and fans: a lot of them watch to see people going higher faster stronger, doing the absolute best that the human race can do, and if you put too many obstacles in their way, the whole thing loses credibility.

Samuel D

Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #34 on: 29 March, 2018, 10:06:47 am »
You bring up Formula One. That sport is a farce lurching from one financial crisis to the next precisely because it allows too much freedom to buy success. Special effort or talent – whether creativity of concept, natural driving talent, persistence, or other admirable sporting merit – isn’t enough there. You need to blow £20 million on engine-development drudge-work or you’ll be an also-ran. Consequently most of the drivers are chosen because they’re rich or famous rather than good at their nominal job.

There aren’t many sports looking at Formula One and thinking they’d like a bit of that. It’s no longer a sport in the traditional sense. To the limited extent that driving can still be considered a sport, it’s undermined by the fact that the cars are more significant to the outcome than the drivers. If it’s a sport at all it’s a game of business acumen: how can you hoodwink the rule-makers, scare up another £10 million in funding from your parent group, manage an agile organisation, write the smartest contracts, optimise your marketing spend, etc. Who cares? Fewer and fewer people, judging by its decades-long decline.

I understand technology and admire it more than most people. However, cycling is firstly an athletic endeavour, and road racing should pit men and women against each other in a competition of strength and wit. Otherwise it betrays its past and becomes another beautiful thing spoiled by American-style consumerism.

Since technology in cycling or any sport will always be limited by the rules, the line in the sand will always be somewhat arbitrary. I’m arguing for a line that reduces costs and therefore barriers to participation and helps develop cycling as a force for good in the world.

On the latter point, it’s depressing how many problems these fragile bicycles have today. Dropping out of a race because your Di2 derailleur glitches out has become downright common.

And disc brakes are even weirder because they positively harm performance even when they work correctly. It’s purely technology push with no benefit for anyone except the bike-manufacturing sponsors, which is why I’d like to see them replaced with supermarkets and sanitary-fittings specialists. At the moment the tail is wagging the dog and the sport is too broke and incompetently run to protest.

mattc

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #35 on: 29 March, 2018, 10:28:27 am »
Karka,
I really cannot know why you watch bike racing, and I cannot be sure (any more than you can) of why "a  lot of fans" watch;

but I know that I am
more impressed by Hoy's thighs than what material his cranks are made out of;
more impressed by Tour riders chucking themselves down a mountain, than what shifters they're using;
more entertained by jens Voigt finishing a stage on a "kids bike" than by reading about the latest team Pinarello.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #36 on: 29 March, 2018, 10:29:52 am »
And disc brakes are even weirder because they positively harm performance even when they work correctly. It’s purely technology push with no benefit for anyone except the bike-manufacturing sponsors, which is why I’d like to see them replaced with supermarkets and sanitary-fittings specialists. At the moment the tail is wagging the dog and the sport is too broke and incompetently run to protest.

I am somewhat perplexed by the first two sentences, they appear to be nonsense.  Ultimately, I think you're right about the tail wagging the dog though.  The commuter and real world bike rider has tried disc brakes and likes them.  For once, the everyday bike rider's interests are lining up alongside the manufacturers, and racers interests are being ignored.  Just this once I am amused to watch the tail wagging the dog.

Kim

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #37 on: 29 March, 2018, 01:16:34 pm »
Karka,
I really cannot know why you watch bike racing, and I cannot be sure (any more than you can) of why "a  lot of fans" watch;

but I know that I am
more impressed by Hoy's thighs than what material his cranks are made out of;
more impressed by Tour riders chucking themselves down a mountain, than what shifters they're using;
more entertained by jens Voigt finishing a stage on a "kids bike" than by reading about the latest team Pinarello.

And quite frankly, if it's technology you're interested in, HPV racing is where it's at.

Karla

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #38 on: 29 March, 2018, 01:28:49 pm »
Matt, let's go back to where you started this.

Face it, cycling is a sport that is fundamentally about using technology to enhance man's capabilities.  If you don't like that, it isn't the sport for you.
My dear chap, that is nonsense. Track cycling is almost always the most exciting branch of the sport, and they use considerably less tech than Froome et al.

This is wrong.  It is an incorrect statement.  If you think it's correct, you need to read up more.  Your idea of corinthian low-tech track cycling is a delusion.  Any conclusions you draw based on this misguided ide are themselves wrong.  Got it yet?

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #39 on: 29 March, 2018, 01:47:52 pm »
Sticking with the track, there's a team at Bristol University sponsored by British Cycling and Renold Chain to research transmission efficiencies. I know someone who works in the team (or did until the end of the year, he's know at Bath Uni in a team looking at motor vehicle transmissions) and he's said that something as simple as a change in lubrication regime can make the difference between gold and zero at world level. The differences are tiny. Track racing at the top level definitely is about the bike at least as much as it's about the rider.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #40 on: 29 March, 2018, 01:54:05 pm »
But that's perhaps the opposite case of disc brakes. You can buy the chain as used by BC track team – competition rules mean it has to be made commercially available – but Renold aren't marketing it, or any cycling products, to you. Their main business is roller chain for industrial and engineering equipment (they made the chains which operate the Thames Barrier, for instance).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #41 on: 29 March, 2018, 02:33:52 pm »
Zinn says that discs have a weight penalty and an aero penalty. However:
* many pro bikes are brought up to the UCI limit by the mechanics adding weight (which I think explains why so many of them ride the "aero road" rather than the super lightweight bikes from the relevant manufacturer).
* both Specialized and Giant claim that their latest aero disc bike is as aero as the non disc version.

So the disadvantages that Zinn points out don't apply to the pro peleton (they might apply to mere mortals who buy their bikes).
The other disadvantage that has been suggested is the difficulty with fast wheel changes, and I believe that's why the pro peleton aren't riding them yet. (On the other hand, we may see then when there's a lot of descending because rim brakes with carbon wheels are not as good as discs.)
Outside the pro peleton, it seems that discs are where it's at - I personally wouldn't buy a road bike with rim brakes again (unless it's something retro). They just work better (esp in the wet).

Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #42 on: 29 March, 2018, 02:37:38 pm »
In reality the point of the kit is marketing.  The mamil warriors and wannabes will be dropping another £5k to £10k on this years bike with this years kit rather than just getting out there and enjoying riding their bicycles. 

Each to his own.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #43 on: 29 March, 2018, 08:01:30 pm »
Regarding wheel changes in the peloton, neutral service has always had to make assumptions and/or compromises on rim width and sprockets. Introducing disc brakes just adds another factor to assume and compromise, it's not the origin of the issue.
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Kim

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #44 on: 29 March, 2018, 08:03:22 pm »
Regarding wheel changes in the peloton, neutral service has always had to make assumptions and/or compromises on rim width and sprockets. Introducing disc brakes just adds another factor to assume and compromise, it's not the origin of the issue.

Surely all the neutral service has to do is carry wheels with discs and brake-compatible rims?

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #45 on: 29 March, 2018, 08:08:40 pm »
Replace a rim with one just 1 or 2mm wider or narrower and you often have to adjust the brakes. I presume there are similar issues with different diameter rotors. Easy enough to do at the roadside but not good when every second counts.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #46 on: 29 March, 2018, 08:55:55 pm »
HOLD ON, HOLD ON, HOLD ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I only asked a simple question; I didn't mean to start an intertribal war!!

FWIW I got to see this stage again this evening, right up to the thrilling finish in which the two man breakaway held off the bunch right up to the end (in part due to a complete disorganisation of the sprinters' teams). The winner was the man with the discs!! but I cannot say that they really played any vital part in his victory which was due to a superior finishing skill. They obviously didn't disadvantage him either. There would appear to still be a real place for skill and tactics (and a bit of luck) in pro road racing.

So will the Luddites go into the room on the left to smash up carbon frames and spinning jennies with sledge hammers, the modernists go into the room on the right to hunt for the latest marginal gains (and undoubtedly scratch theircricket balls with sandpaper if that takes their fancy) and the lovers of tradition take their Draisiens down to the local cinder track (avoiding the horsemuck in the streets on the way).

Like it or not cycle racing is and always has been a mechanical sport; my personal take is that in trying to align with the IOC and make out that racing is purely about athleticism and not mechanics the UCI is making a big mistake - but I could be wrong since that appears to be where the money and political clout is.

End of Rant :)

Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #47 on: 29 March, 2018, 09:25:44 pm »
Also at all levels in U.K.


Does anyone know about overseas? The FFCT/ASO had issues when they were last introduced I know, (e.g. being disallowed in the Etape etc)

Cr***p The FFCT is nothing to do with cycle sport and certainly not L'Etape or ASO. As far as I know the FFCT has no policy on bikes other than lights, bells and reflectors - it even allows e-bikes in randonnées. It also loves vtts so has a high opinion on discs (and encourages vtts in road as well as off-road use as far as I can understand from local instructors - you can use a vtt for the road part of the Initiateur qualification - but not a road bike off-road!)

Tim Hall

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Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #48 on: 29 March, 2018, 10:18:59 pm »
In reality the point of the kit is marketing.  The mamil warriors and wannabes will be dropping another £5k to £10k on this years bike with this years kit rather than just getting out there and enjoying riding their bicycles. 

Each to his own.
There's nothing stopping a mamil warrior dropping £5k on this years bike AND getting out there and  enjoying riding their bikes. It's not a binary thing.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Samuel D

Re: Disc brakes in the pro peloton
« Reply #49 on: 30 March, 2018, 04:28:02 am »
And disc brakes are even weirder because they positively harm performance even when they work correctly. It’s purely technology push with no benefit for anyone except the bike-manufacturing sponsors, which is why I’d like to see them replaced with supermarkets and sanitary-fittings specialists. At the moment the tail is wagging the dog and the sport is too broke and incompetently run to protest.

I am somewhat perplexed by the first two sentences, they appear to be nonsense.

Why do they appear that way to you? I hope it’s obvious I’m talking about disc brakes in pro racing, the subject of the thread. The tenuous braking advantage they have is outweighed by drag, weight, and wheel-swap penalties.

Zinn says that discs have a weight penalty and an aero penalty. However:
* many pro bikes are brought up to the UCI limit by the mechanics adding weight (which I think explains why so many of them ride the "aero road" rather than the super lightweight bikes from the relevant manufacturer).

Every time someone weighs the bikes, they find this not to be true. Some of them are around 8 kg and even the climber’s machines are rarely at the legal limit. They ride aero bikes because they’re marginally faster and the sponsors want them to, and because weight doesn’t make much difference even at this level of competition.

* both Specialized and Giant claim that their latest aero disc bike is as aero as the non disc version.

So who should we believe: a technophile with no visible vested interest whose job it is to be expert in these matters or a company whose success depends on the public perception that disc brakes belong everywhere?

Don’t get me wrong: I don’t think the tiny burden in weight and drag of disc brakes makes a button of difference in 99 out of a 100 races. The marginal-gains palaver has got people thinking these things matter a great deal more than they do.

But disc brakes are being pushed despite fractionally harming racing performance. This situation is novel, because previous new tech in the avalanche of change over the last two decades has infinitesimally improved performance (while it’s worked, at least), allowing us to suspend disbelief about why it was introduced. No longer!

[Disc brakes] obviously didn't disadvantage him either.

You cannot see their weight and drag on television. Nor can you assess puncture risk with a sample size of one.