Considering entering the dark side

[Wothill]

A neck problem was what got me into recumbents at the age of 42. I prefer open-cockpit (aka 'tweener or aero bars) to tiller bars. How tall are you? It helps to have decent leg length if you want a hi-racer (short wheelbase with two large wheels). If I was taller, I'd probably go for a Nazca Gaucho Hi-Racer https://nazca-ligfietsen.nl/en/list/models/item/22/#type=2 This has dual 700c wheels, carbon fork and rear suspension and the seat height is only 60cm - low for a hi-racer format.

I'm 1.84m / 6 foot tall.

Okay, more pertinent though is what is your x-seam?

X-seam is the length from your hip to the end of your feet, easiest way to measure is to get a book and an ironing board. Place the ironing board upright at an angle against a wall, sit on the floor with your backside against the ironing board sitting back like you are on a recumbent and push the book out away from you with your feet together, keeping your toes pointing upwards until your knees are straight, then measure from the edge of the book to edge of the ironing board in inches.

I'm thinking your x-seam will be in the region of about 44-46 inches which will be good for all hi racers imo. Ultimately you need to test ride some...

Yes, seat height shouldn't be a problem. Low seat bikes are fun - you are probably more aero, and there is a greater sensation of speed being nearer the road, but you don't see as much and if you are riding with DFs you are further away and it's harder to communicate.

[ElyDave]

My M5 has a 48cm seat height with twin 700C wheels.  Deliberately chosen as at 1.75m I was struggling to get feet down (tippy toes) on the ICE B2.  I guess that gives you some idea of range.

Some bikes will be easier I think due to seat configuration, such as Bachetta with their 2 piece arrangement.

[Phil W]

A neck problem was what got me into recumbents at the age of 42. I prefer open-cockpit (aka 'tweener or aero bars) to tiller bars. How tall are you? It helps to have decent leg length if you want a hi-racer (short wheelbase with two large wheels). If I was taller, I'd probably go for a Nazca Gaucho Hi-Racer https://nazca-ligfietsen.nl/en/list/models/item/22/#type=2 This has dual 700c wheels, carbon fork and rear suspension and the seat height is only 60cm - low for a hi-racer format.

I'm 1.84m / 6 foot tall.

Okay, more pertinent though is what is your x-seam?

X-seam is the length from your hip to the end of your feet, easiest way to measure is to get a book and an ironing board. Place the ironing board upright at an angle against a wall, sit on the floor with your backside against the ironing board sitting back like you are on a recumbent and push the book out away from you with your feet together, keeping your toes pointing upwards until your knees are straight, then measure from the edge of the book to edge of the ironing board in inches.

I'm thinking your x-seam will be in the region of about 44-46 inches which will be good for all hi racers imo. Ultimately you need to test ride some...

My x seam is 46 inches.

[LMT]

A neck problem was what got me into recumbents at the age of 42. I prefer open-cockpit (aka 'tweener or aero bars) to tiller bars. How tall are you? It helps to have decent leg length if you want a hi-racer (short wheelbase with two large wheels). If I was taller, I'd probably go for a Nazca Gaucho Hi-Racer https://nazca-ligfietsen.nl/en/list/models/item/22/#type=2 This has dual 700c wheels, carbon fork and rear suspension and the seat height is only 60cm - low for a hi-racer format.

I'm 1.84m / 6 foot tall.

Okay, more pertinent though is what is your x-seam?

X-seam is the length from your hip to the end of your feet, easiest way to measure is to get a book and an ironing board. Place the ironing board upright at an angle against a wall, sit on the floor with your backside against the ironing board sitting back like you are on a recumbent and push the book out away from you with your feet together, keeping your toes pointing upwards until your knees are straight, then measure from the edge of the book to edge of the ironing board in inches.

I'm thinking your x-seam will be in the region of about 44-46 inches which will be good for all hi racers imo. Ultimately you need to test ride some...

My x seam is 46 inches.

Cool, time to start test riding then...a call to Kevin @ Dtek and if you really want, a long weekend away up in Scotland visiting Laid Back bikes...

EDIT: Just checked their website, they have an Encore and M5 CHR as demos...Carbon Fibre recumbents in all their glory.

[Kim]

Yes, seat height shouldn't be a problem. Low seat bikes are fun - you are probably more aero, and there is a greater sensation of speed being nearer the road, but you don't see as much and if you are riding with DFs you are further away and it's harder to communicate.

Also, you get splattered with much more wet stuff when you're low down.  Mudguards solve that for your own wheels, but don't do a lot for those of other vehicles spraying in your face.

That, combined with rolling resistance being more important than aerodynamics at lower speeds is why I reckon big wheeled high-racers are the optimal setup for audax, legs permitting.

[Phil W]

Ok, cheap advance return to Edinburgh bought for September to visit Laid Back  and I'll arrange a visit to Dtek for August.

[PeterM]

Just to give you some thoughts.

Ooh, I rode the 1999 PBP with Zach.

Recumbents aren't necessarily a total cure for neck issues, in my experience.  I suffered a slight attack of floppy neck when riding my Trice Micro on the 2001 LEL.  Nothing that imperilled the ride, though.

[Phil W]

Just to give you some thoughts.

Ooh, I rode the 1999 PBP with Zach.

Recumbents aren't necessarily a total cure for neck issues, in my experience.  I suffered a slight attack of floppy neck when riding my Trice Micro on the 2001 LEL.  Nothing that imperilled the ride, though.

Interesting do you use a head rest on your recumbent? From what I can see the neck looks to be in a more natural vertical position than on my DF bike.

I need to find a recumbent that is fun as well as comfortable. I'll still be keeping my upright so I think they'll be complimentary. I want to give long distance a go on what I get once I've broken myself in to this new style of riding. But I'll also be using it for shorter stuff. I like to mix my riding up but for the last two decades that just been off road and road. This will be another dimension.

[PeterM]

Interesting do you use a head rest on your recumbent? From what I can see the neck looks to be in a more natural vertical position than on my DF bike.

Yes, there's a head rest (less sophisticated than the current model).  The seat is very reclined, which may have something to do with it.

[LMT]

IME the sweetspot of seating angles is 23-28 degrees and at these angles you'll need a headrest imo.

[Mr Larrington]

I abandoned the headrest on my Trice XXL after a single 400, as it was threatening to saw my neck clean through.

[EdinburghFixed]

Mike Burrows put it perfectly when comparing a DF vs recumbent going up a hill - bikes don't go up hills, people do. The only thing a bike does is go down a hill.

Watt for watt a recumbent bike will match a DF going up a hill, up to a given gradient it will be quicker because of the lower drag, above a certain gradient it will be slower because of the increased weight. But the difference in speed is minimal.

The perception of a DF bike being quicker than a recumbent bike is due to the fact that you can incorporate more muscles when going up a hill on a DF bike. But people tend to forget that this increased wattage due to more muscles groups being used increases HR and will put you rapidly into the red.

I'm with you until the last sentence. My experience is that the increased wattage does not put you rapidly into the red, but you basically get some extra watts for the same or reduced effort and HR in the upright position VS riding laid back. Exactly what causes this is open to debate of course.

By way of anecdote, last summer I rode up Alp D'Huez in a little under an hour on my DF. I was putting out more power than I can hold on the High Baron, but my average HR was lower than when I'm working out on the recumbent. Like having your cake and eating it too. (I'm a little over 4W/kg)

Of course, when all's said and done you don't spend all that long riding so intensely on most rides. I find a big advantage in lower energy expenditure accumulates and more than compensates for any reduction in raw speed on the odd uphill. Plus it's just more fun....

[Kim]

Of course, when all's said and done you don't spend all that long riding so intensely on most rides. I find a big advantage in lower energy expenditure accumulates and more than compensates for any reduction in raw speed on the odd uphill. Plus it's just more fun....

And lots of things don't hurt as much...

[woollypigs]

I'm a new comer to the dark side, just over 265 miles on the Azub Six. Max distance I have done is 18 miles.

Though that said I'm only just back on my bike after long hiatus. The only thing I can say that hurt and moan after a ride is my legs. Just like you will feel after doing something that you haven't done for a long while.

No pain in neck, arms or hands which where why I stopped cycling on a DF.

So let's see how I feel when I have build up my distance, speed and frequency of my rides.

I have tried to visit Dtek twice and both times failed to hook up with him. Even after confirming that he would be around via email, phone went unanswered.

[andytheflyer]

Hi PhilW,

I had a 3 level decompression and fusion of 4 vertebrae in my neck in 2010.  So now I have a stiff neck - since 4 of the vertebrae are now one piece.  I also acquired spinal cord damage in 2 places (not the fault of the surgeon) which has left me a bit wobbly on my legs - so I tried a Performer 20/26" recumbent a couple of years ago.  2000 miles later and I'm about to take delivery of another - this time using my Mavic 700c wheels and the ultra low gearing cassette and chainwheels etc off my DF bike - a Giant Defy. 

I've been audaxing my recumbent - I'm about 5% slower than on my Defy over 100k - but the benefit is absolutely no neck, shoulder, wrist or back pain - just in the legs!  So, I'm hoping the 700c version will be quicker and I can attempt some 200k audaxes - which I think are a bit far on the 20/26 wheeled bent. 

I cannot overemphasize just how beneficial I have found the recumbent to be in mitigating pain as a result of my spinal injury.  But, and it's a big but, it took me a good few weeks and about 500 miles to get to the point where I became convinced that the recumbent experiment would work for me.  People were telling me that it was the right thing to do, but it didn't feel that way for a while.  It took me a long time to get the neck rest (it's not a head rest) position just right, to find the right padding for the neck rest (Ventisit in the end) and to get the seat angle right.  To start with I made some brackets to tip the seat more upright than the manufacturer intended, but gradually reduced the seat angle until I now have it on the most reclined position.

Everything about riding a recumbent is odd, and totally alien to begin with.  Buy one and after a week you'll be thinking that you'll never get on with it, but patience and persistence pays off.  Mine's like riding an armchair.  Other than uphill, it's fairly quick, you notice cold days less because you are not fronting into the cold wind, and you see what's in front and above you, trees, buzzards, aeroplanes - not that bit of tarmac 5m in front of the front wheel. 

After last winter I found my Defy to be almost unrideable as a result of neck and shoulder pain, so I'm scavenging the parts I need for my new Performer High Racer (buying a frameset direct from the manufacturer) and consigning the rest of what has been a very good DF bike to the attic - it's recumbent only for me now - other than the shopping hybrid.

[LMT]

Mike Burrows put it perfectly when comparing a DF vs recumbent going up a hill - bikes don't go up hills, people do. The only thing a bike does is go down a hill.

Watt for watt a recumbent bike will match a DF going up a hill, up to a given gradient it will be quicker because of the lower drag, above a certain gradient it will be slower because of the increased weight. But the difference in speed is minimal.

The perception of a DF bike being quicker than a recumbent bike is due to the fact that you can incorporate more muscles when going up a hill on a DF bike. But people tend to forget that this increased wattage due to more muscles groups being used increases HR and will put you rapidly into the red.

I'm with you until the last sentence. My experience is that the increased wattage does not put you rapidly into the red, but you basically get some extra watts for the same or reduced effort and HR in the upright position VS riding laid back. Exactly what causes this is open to debate of course.

By way of anecdote, last summer I rode up Alp D'Huez in a little under an hour on my DF. I was putting out more power than I can hold on the High Baron, but my average HR was lower than when I'm working out on the recumbent. Like having your cake and eating it too. (I'm a little over 4W/kg)

Of course, when all's said and done you don't spend all that long riding so intensely on most rides. I find a big advantage in lower energy expenditure accumulates and more than compensates for any reduction in raw speed on the odd uphill. Plus it's just more fun....

That's not my experience of using a Wattbike down my local gym. Imo what you are describing is not a reduced effort or the same per se, what is happening, is that you are spreading the load from just your legs to now your upper body as well so the perceived effort feels the same or less.

On the wattbike standing up pushing roughly 5w/kg (385W), my HR will be around 172-173BPM compared to 164-165 sitting down.

[mrcharly-YHT]

If I had the money, I'd be out there buying a recumbent now. Probably an Azub Bufo, because they make a recumbent that seems suitable for people who are short of leg. Also, I like the idea of being Mr Toad on the road.

But I'm very very sceptical of these climbing claims. I like my winching up a hill out of the saddle, pausing to take a breath while standing up, then continuing. Just not possible on a sofa-bike.

[woollypigs]

Ah, I haven't had a problem with stopping to collect my lungs to then continue my merry way. That said I'm a spinner not out of a saddle climber on a DF.

[Kim]

Yes, you're likely to get on much better with recumbents if you prefer to stay in the saddle and spin.  And with recumbent bikes specifically if you tend to pace yourself so you can do the whole climb in one go rather than stopping to get your breath back (starting recumbent bikes on steep gradients can be problematic, so it's usually easier not to stop).

Obviously these are things that most people can learn, but it does seem to reduce the enjoyment factor if you have to.

[Phil W]

I live in SE England which is a great help. Long steep hills have to be sought out. Mostly its rolling, flat, or you get long shallow hills or short steep hills. I'm also a spinner uphill which sounds like an advantage when new to recumbents.

[PaulM]

Generally if I have stop because it's too steep, then I've had no problem continuing on my way once I've had a couple of minutes rest. If you are close to stalling and then stop you are already in a low enough gear  to make starting off easy. Having said that, none of my bikes have had a high bottom bracket - the Giro 20 was around 26 or 27".

[Kim]

In my experience, the main problem with getting moving again is traction (steep climbs often being associated with chutney and gravel).  Low gears, especially the really low ones that you can have on trikes, exacerbate that problem.

That said, that's on a very stable touring machine.  Other bikes will be harder to balance.

[Phil W]

Test ride days arranged. This is exciting

[yanto]

Phil, just go the whole hog, get a velomobile, seriously they can't be beaten, the only draw backs are transportation and storage. LEL in 75 hrs with 24 hrs of stops 

Not sure if it's been mentioned that you will have to learn to ride again with a 'bent, balance is by subtle steering rather than changing body position, and the lower the seat to the ground the harder it is.  Plus give it a couple of thousand miles to get 'bent legs, you use the muscles in a different orientation and they need time to adjust.

Cheers

Ian

PS, i went over to the dark side because of neck problems.

[zoxed]

...get a velomobile, seriously they can't be beaten, the only draw backs are transportation and storage...

And cost :-(