Cyclist down

[TimC]

Aswell as edumacating the cyclists, they should install those parking sensor things that go beep when you get too close.

My Volvo Chelsea tractor has parking sensors, and if I'm stopped or in a very slow in a traffic queue, their sensitivity increases. If a bike or pedestrian (or a car!) comes within 3 or 4 feet of either end of the vehicle, the system bleats at me and reminds me to look at whichever end the warning comes from. The car has a reversing camera, and it would make sense that the picture would come up on the screen if the rear sensors are triggered, but sadly that doesn't happen. But the technology is there.

[Jakob]

Helmet do significantly reduce head injuries.

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=61735.msg1280935#msg1280935

[Jacomus]

Aswell as edumacating the cyclists, they should install those parking sensor things that go beep when you get too close.

My Volvo Chelsea tractor has parking sensors, and if I'm stopped or in a very slow in a traffic queue, their sensitivity increases. If a bike or pedestrian (or a car!) comes within 3 or 4 feet of either end of the vehicle, the system bleats at me and reminds me to look at whichever end the warning comes from. The car has a reversing camera, and it would make sense that the picture would come up on the screen if the rear sensors are triggered, but sadly that doesn't happen. But the technology is there.

I am sure that this would go some way to mitigating the problem. Firstly, by taking away the potential for the excuse 'oh, they were in my blind spot' and secondly, by alerting drivers that a cyclist has inserted themselves into the kill zone. Which some people will still do, no matter how hard truck operators try to prevent it... which reminds me of this incident:

Seen this morning:

A London Concrete cement truck, one of the really large four axle ones, was sat at a set of lights. Indicating left. He had pulled in so close to the kerb that the wheels were sat on the outside line of the double yellow lines. Big yellow sign on the back "Danger. Cyclists, don't ride up the left of this vehicle" or some such warning. On the left rear mudflap. "Danger. Do not pass on the left." A big yellow and black sign on the side of the vehicle "Caution: Keep Clear"* and a recorded voice announcing at quite high volume "Caution. Keep clear. This vehicle is turning left. Beep-boop-beep-boop. Caution. Keep clear. This vehicle is turning left." over and over again.

Johnny Cyclist rolls up, pauses for a second, and squeezes alongside the truck. Space was so limited that he had to cant the bike over to the left and scoot himself along with his foot on the pavement. He stopped almost exactly half way along the truck.

Knowing the cycle of the traffic lights I made a dash to get to the cab and warn the driver as I had a bad feeling that the cyclist would be right in his blind spot. I was stymied by a van on the RHS of the cement truck and as I was scrambling to get off the bike and approach the truck on foot the lights changed.

The truck didn't move.

I got infront of the truck and went to make the left turn, wide in the road, ahead of it. I looked along the side of the truck in time to see the driver's head poking out of the passenger window and hear the tail end of some abuse directed at the cyclist, who was by this time clambering up onto the pavement.

Cyclist off the road the truck pulled away and I cycled the last few meters to the office.

That was a bit scary.


[EDIT]* I couldn't see this sign at first, but when I looped round ahead of the truck and looked back I noticed it.

[mattc]

Helmet do significantly reduce head injuries.

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=61735.msg1280935#msg1280935

Only if you include bruises and minor scrapes. Gloves reduce as many injuries.

have you read that topic?

[Jaded]

Helmet do significantly reduce head injuries.

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=61735.msg1280935#msg1280935

I think that you mean that a piece of research says that helmets do significantly reduce head injuries.

[TimO]

Seen this morning:

... tale of someone fairly blatantly ignoring lots of explicit and deliberate indicators not to go up the inside of an HGV ...

I guess there will always be a few idiots who choose to ignore the blindingly obvious dangerous situations, regardless of how well indicated they are.  I suppose the main question is, why do people choose to ignore the warning signs (literally sometimes), and what can be done to limit that.  Do they need less subtle ones?  Do they need to be bigger and more obvious?

I guess there's a requirement for some sort of deeper psychological understanding of why people don't avoid a dangerous situation that's being fairly clearly indicated to them, but I'm damned if I know what can be done.  That particular situation seems to have had pretty much everything except a set of dancing girls chanting "You're going to die if you do that".

[Ham]

NEVER underestimate the stupidity of people.

[Wascally Weasel]

I was borderline about voting for Wiggins at SPOTY but he definitely won't be getting it now.  I hope he's rethinking his decision to refuse the media training that Sky were wanting him to do.

Damn, and he was counting on you too.

[Martin109]

What we need is some simple public service announcements, with our lovely new celeb riders, showing how to ride safely on the road.

Someone like Cav saying "I'm always in a rush and I can handle myself, but even I don't go into the DEATH ZONE" and pointing out the Bad Place on the inside of long vehicles.

  I seem to recall seeing public information films with characters like the Green Cross Code Man and Tufty the Squirrel when I was younger, but less so in recent years (but then again, I don't watch children's TV quite as much either!)

I believe that the film unit which used to make such excellent films has been wound up because of cuts.  I may be wrong, and stand to be corrected.

Seen this morning:

... tale of someone fairly blatantly ignoring lots of explicit and deliberate indicators not to go up the inside of an HGV ...

I guess there will always be a few idiots who choose to ignore the blindingly obvious dangerous situations, regardless of how well indicated they are.  I suppose the main question is, why do people choose to ignore the warning signs (literally sometimes), and what can be done to limit that.  Do they need less subtle ones?  Do they need to be bigger and more obvious?

I guess there's a requirement for some sort of deeper psychological understanding of why people don't avoid a situation that's being fairly clearly indicated to them, but I'm damned if I know what can be done.  That particular situation seems to have had pretty much everything except a set of dancing girls chanting "You're going to die if you do that".

I had a partly sleepless night thinking about this, and got to wondering - with the making of punchy, informative public education films now all but ceased and, on the other hand, the proliferation now of sites like YouTube and Vimeo, maybe it's up to us to put our heads together about the making of a suitable film.

I believe there are several media and film people on yacf, there are CTC luminaries, technical wizards.  I know a TV cameraman in Manchester I could talk to.  Maybe it's possible to speak to prominent figures such as Cav and Boardman to see if they might be willing to give a little of their time for free in such a cause.  Andy's idea above is a brilliant one - can we not make it happen?

Shall we have a brainstorm?

[Edited for typo]

[ian]

NEVER underestimate the stupidity of people.

To be fair, most people under the age of 30(ish) are effectively immortal. Well, they believe themselves to be, which is all the reassurance they need. Besides, they've haven't died yet, so it must be true. Having mulled it over,  I think yes, you can educate against this behaviour. They may not think a particular behaviour is immediately dangerous, but you inculcate an abstract 'I shouldn't do that' with enough publicity. Now might be a good time, while cycling has such a positive spin.

(Probably the wrong place, but I don't really get the helmet fixation from either side of the argument.)

[clarion]

Most people under 30 haven't lost a parent, even (i'm 47 and still have the full complement), so the immortality is reinforced.

[Wowbagger]

Recent rides across London have given us first-hand experience of how easy it is to fall foul of incompetent cyclists.

Our trips between Lpoo St and Euston at both ends of our June holiday involved in being overtaken on the wrong side on at least three occasions. We were heavily laden, therefore even slower than usual, but we we cycling as a close-knit group of three, mostly in the bus lane. On the way out, around 10pm, some young idiot overtook Jan on the left and then had the temerity to stop and berate us for our lack of cycling acumen. On the return, in the morning rush hour, another overtook us at speed and then had a forced dismount as he leaned over on a wet manhole cover.

My impression from this, admittedly extremely limited, cross section of the cycling community was that there is cudos in risk-taking and that anyone who cycles with safety in mind is therefore to be scorned. I wonder whether this attitude is fostered by the fact that an awful lot of young cyclists have their first experiences on BMX bikes, where risk-taking and ever more daring manoeuvres seem to be the name of the game.

[mcshroom]

I think it's more to do with this idea of immortality (and in many cases being completely oblivious of the risks they are taking)

[Wascally Weasel]

That’s one possible explanation but I think it’s fear related.  I think that a lot of the self justification that leads to a lot of bad cycling and driving behaviour is rooted in a (possibly subconscious) fear of the activity and the inherent dangers. 

In a previous job I spent a fair bit of time observing driver and cyclist behaviour at certain busy junctions and I have to say that one thing that became apparent was just how uncomfortable a lot of drivers appear to be with actually driving.

[mattc]

My impression from this, admittedly extremely limited, cross section of the cycling community was that there is cudos in risk-taking and that anyone who cycles with safety in mind is therefore to be scorned. I wonder whether this attitude is fostered by the fact that an awful lot of young cyclists have their first experiences on BMX bikes, where risk-taking and ever more daring manoeuvres seem to be the name of the game.

This isn't a new thing. Kids have always started out riding bikes in a less-than-sensible way. BMX was an 80s thing (possibly earlier?), and kids rode similar bikes (in a similar way) long before the acronym had been invented.

[ian]

Don't discount peer pressure either. I mean, what kind of serious Hoxton-birthed ninja cycle courier is going to amble up to a red light and patiently wait.

[tom_e]

Don't discount peer pressure either I mean, what kind of serious Hoxton-birthed ninja cycle courier is going to amble up to a red light and patiently wait.

I suspect this one applies to drivers also.  You can't see round the bend, but the car in front has overtaken the cyclist, the car behind is obviously being held up by you, and there isn't anything coming at the moment.  What are you doing, slowcoach?  Sure, it isn't directly said, but it's probably in the minds of all the drivers concerned.

[TimC]

Recent rides across London have given us first-hand experience of how easy it is to fall foul of incompetent cyclists.

Our trips between Lpoo St and Euston at both ends of our June holiday involved in being overtaken on the wrong side on at least three occasions. We were heavily laden, therefore even slower than usual, but we we cycling as a close-knit group of three, mostly in the bus lane. On the way out, around 10pm, some young idiot overtook Jan on the left and then had the temerity to stop and berate us for our lack of cycling acumen. On the return, in the morning rush hour, another overtook us at speed and then had a forced dismount as he leaned over on a wet manhole cover.

My impression from this, admittedly extremely limited, cross section of the cycling community was that there is cudos in risk-taking and that anyone who cycles with safety in mind is therefore to be scorned. I wonder whether this attitude is fostered by the fact that an awful lot of young cyclists have their first experiences on BMX bikes, where risk-taking and ever more daring manoeuvres seem to be the name of the game.

Hmmm. Young men (mainly) take risks and believe themselves foolproof and immortal. I doubt this is a phenomenon only evident since the start of BMX cycling...

[David Martin]

snip scary anecdote of lemming..

This is one case where a helmet would help. Not a normal helmet but one which weights about 200kg so the stupid idiot can't actually get to the road to commit suicide by skip lorry.

[mcshroom]

snip scary anecdote of lemming..

This is one case where a helmet would help. Not a normal helmet but one which weights about 200kg so the stupid idiot can't actually get to the road to commit suicide by skip lorry.

How about a helmet with a broom handle the width of a car stuck to the top?

Actually that could make a good "give us room" campaign

[AndyK]

I wonder whether this attitude is fostered by the fact that an awful lot of young cyclists have their first experiences on BMX bikes, where risk-taking and ever more daring manoeuvres seem to be the name of the game.

I think it may be people new to cycling who cycle with the same attitude they are used to having when driving. I have noticed a distinct increase in 'cycle rage' and just plain rudeness from other cyclists over recent months.
I listen to the local radio station in  the mornings, one of the breakfast time-slot presenters has recently bought herself a bike to use for commuting along the seafront cycle path (at 5.30am). She was saying last week how two 'lycra louts' (her description) berated her for cycling slowly, saying 'You're in the cycle lane learn to bloody use it properly!' I assume she wasn't keeping as far left as they would have liked. (My reply to them would have been get in the bloody road if you want to cycle fast.)

[rafletcher]

I wonder whether this attitude is fostered by the fact that an awful lot of young cyclists have their first experiences on BMX bikes, where risk-taking and ever more daring manoeuvres seem to be the name of the game.

I think it may be people new to cycling who cycle with the same attitude they are used to having when driving. I have noticed a distinct increase in 'cycle rage' and just plain rudeness from other cyclists over recent months.
I listen to the local radio station in  the mornings, one of the breakfast time-slot presenters has recently bought herself a bike to use for commuting along the seafront cycle path (at 5.30am). She was saying last week how two 'lycra louts' (her description) berated her for cycling slowly, saying 'You're in the cycle lane learn to bloody use it properly!' I assume she wasn't keeping as far left as they would have liked. (My reply to them would have been get in the bloody road if you want to cycle fast.)

Indeed. Some while ago we (my wife and I) were walking on Brighton seafront. There is there a cycle lane - it bisects the pedestrian path. This was a bust saturday. My wife started to cross the cycle lane, but I manged to granb her - as a fixie went past at I would guess 20-25kph. After all he WAS in the cycle lane...

[Bledlow]

BMX was an 80s thing (possibly earlier?),

I remember the boy next door having a BMX bike when I was still at school. I took my A levels in 1975.

[Wowbagger]

There was a govt. doc (PPG something or other - I read it once when preparing for a public inquiry) which recommended 18mph as a maximum speed on cycle paths.

Personally I think that's much too fast where there are peds about. 12mph is plenty. Any faster and I'd use the road.

Re BMX: there are still loads of BMX bikes about, ridden by people of pretty well all ages, it seems, and some facilities where the protagonists can practise their leet skilz.

[clarion]

Andy, I agree.  It's the person, not the vehicle.  Much though I would love it if riding a bike turned everyone into a leftie, lentil-eating, Buddhist, it just doesn't, and the asshole on a bike is the same as the asshole in a car, just substantially less lethal when he leaves his BMW at home.