Author Topic: [LEL17] LEL fitness - what's really required  (Read 21587 times)

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #25 on: 24 September, 2016, 06:09:45 pm »

Others find it easier to deal with sleep deprivation so can afford to ride slower.


Or: others find that they ride slower so have to learn to deal with sleep deprivation.

In my case, I rode LEL in 2009 and took only a couple of hours' poor quality sleep at Alston on the way up. The Edinburgh control was too noisy to sleep but I got a few shivering hours at Traquiar during the forced overnight stop.  After that, if I recall, I got about three hours on the floor at Coxwold and a couple of hours at the last control (Great Gransden). And that was it. 

That meant that I was able to cruise along at a pace that never really stretched me uncomfortably and there was never a point, even during that infamous night in the Borders, when I wasn't confident of finishing with some (but not much) time to spare.

I'm not sure I will find it as easy next time around but, having successfully ridden to Brest without stopping and then cruised back last year, I'm contemplating trying the same strategy for LEL. I'll just need to make sure that I am well rested in the couple of weeks before the ride.
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #26 on: 24 September, 2016, 06:46:28 pm »
Effing heck .. if you can do a 8.32 total time 200 .. you really have no speed/power  problems .. what you need is the knowledge about your body and brain that comes from doing longer rides.. so my pennorth .. keep up steady 200s during the winter .. 2 a month .. + other shorter faster rides. Get into the longer 300,400, 600 as early as you can in 2017. Get kit / food / fluid etc sorted on those rides .. work out how long and how often you need to sleep .. mesh that in with your riding speeds .. and see how this pans out for total time. if this does not give you a very comfortable margin .. then maybe you have got to get faster thru controls and/or cut sleep back. At your  speed on a 200 .. I really can not see any problems .. if it is of any relevance .. I am over in E Anglia.. so flat riding .. old ( 74) but I aim for a 200 to be 9.15 to 9.45 riding + 1 hour off the bike .. this allows me to tackle the really long rides with a modest margin, but I do have to be quick thru controls and do not get much sleep.
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #27 on: 24 September, 2016, 07:15:39 pm »
People are missing the point that I thought I made quite clear, better fitness means less mental fortitude is needed.
No - they are not, they are taking issue with the rest of your post.
You might want to aim for 4w/kg, but since you didnt specify a time period, later posters were pointing out that it is perfectly possible to complete LEL with wattages of one-half, one-third or even less than this over the course of the sort of ride that the OP has already completed.

Consider it from poiint of view of a newcomer to this game.  Rides his/her first 200 and maybe Strava says he's averaging not much more than 1w/kg, and then someone comes along and announces a benchmark of at least 4w/kg.  What a way to put people off !

4w/kg is a level of fitness, it's nothing to do with holding a wattage for any longer than what is needed in order to carry out a FTP test - you are clearly getting confused with what is a level of fitness and needing to hold x amount of watts for the entire ride.

And correct, people could complete the ride on a level which is less than this, but the point I was making and what you alluded to in an earlier post is that this would require a fair amount of mental strength.

Train hard, ride easy.


LMT, you'd have been a lot clearer if you'd have mentioned the magic letters "FTP" or even given it it's full name of "Functional Threshold Power".  Now I recognised it immediately as an FTP due to its being in the right ballpark, but them wot don't like obsessing over numbers aren't going to do that, so you need to actually name it.  It's all useless info to anyone who doesn't have a power meter anyway, as Strava 'power' figures ignore so many unmeasured variables as to be completely pointless.  I'm currently looking at two 50 mile TTs that I did on the same course, on the same bike.  I went 4 minutes faster on the second ride, but my Strava power is 130W lower! 

Anyway, like Fidgetbuzz says, if the OP rides 200km in 8.5 hours, speed isn't the issue, it's staying comfy on the bike for four days.

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #28 on: 24 September, 2016, 07:40:01 pm »
As per others, it's a mental challenge more than anything.

There's been plenty of people turn up at the start of LEL without ever having ridden more than 200 km, some even less (I met someone who'd never ridden more than 100 miles who got around LEL just fine).

There's only 1 magic number you really need to worry about and that is 288 km.

That's it.

That's what you have to ride each day to get around LEL (there'll be a little bit of over-distance, so it will be marginally more than that (just thought I better add that in for the pedants)).

288 km.

How you do those 288km is down to you. 

The typical Audax rider seems to average around 20kph moving, so 14-15 hours a day on the bike. 

The slower rider might go at around 15kph, so 19 hours a day on the bike.

The faster rider at 25kph will spend 11.5 hours on the bike.


288 km.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #29 on: 24 September, 2016, 07:58:15 pm »
This is what i would do.
                                         1) join a local club to ride with, regular riding all year really helps and you may find riders with long distance riding experience.
                                         

1) been there, done that, there are several folks in my local club who think you can only be a REAL member if you TT every week, club ride twice a week, and don't like recumbents.  I'm no longer a member


try a different club, that's not reflective of my club.

Eddington  127miles, 170km

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #30 on: 24 September, 2016, 08:07:13 pm »
Or start your own club/group. Thats what we did. :thumbsup:

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #31 on: 24 September, 2016, 08:13:09 pm »
...... keep up steady 200s during the winter .. 2 a month .. + other shorter faster rides. Get into the longer 300,400, 600 as early as you can in 2017. ....

two 200s a month? now I am worried.  I have done a number of 200s and typically get to 200km in about 9 hours total time (+/-15 minutes), my 300km (the dean) took, I think, 15 hours, so that should give me enough sleeping time. do 300km, eat, 7 hours sleep, eat, go again.

My plan for the year ahead is a 200km each month through to March,  300km in April, 600km in May 400km in June with then maybe LEL.I doubt I can make more time available for cycling than this unless I wait a few years.  (I would expect to do a 100km every saturday when I don;t do a 200km)
 I think the body is capable, but the difficulty is in the mind. I find a 200km ride is completely enjoyable, but I found the 300km and 400km ride this year to go beyond the enjoyable phase, becoming more of a chore. How I could endure that for 5 consecutive days I don't know.

as a plan B I know I can survive on 4 hours sleep for 2 or 3 nights in a row.

Eddington  127miles, 170km

Jonah

  • Audax Club Hackney
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #32 on: 24 September, 2016, 08:18:03 pm »
That seems like a plan!

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #33 on: 24 September, 2016, 08:18:55 pm »
A lot of the enthusiastic audaxers here recommend doing large numbers of brevets in preparation for LEL. That approach provides confidence but riders can successfully get away with a lot fewer brevets.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #34 on: 24 September, 2016, 08:42:01 pm »
^^ exactly, i know some new to audaxing who did a 2400km as their first event. it's much more of a mental challenge if/when going gets tough.

LMT

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #35 on: 24 September, 2016, 09:12:36 pm »
People are missing the point that I thought I made quite clear, better fitness means less mental fortitude is needed.
No - they are not, they are taking issue with the rest of your post.
You might want to aim for 4w/kg, but since you didnt specify a time period, later posters were pointing out that it is perfectly possible to complete LEL with wattages of one-half, one-third or even less than this over the course of the sort of ride that the OP has already completed.

Consider it from poiint of view of a newcomer to this game.  Rides his/her first 200 and maybe Strava says he's averaging not much more than 1w/kg, and then someone comes along and announces a benchmark of at least 4w/kg.  What a way to put people off !

4w/kg is a level of fitness, it's nothing to do with holding a wattage for any longer than what is needed in order to carry out a FTP test - you are clearly getting confused with what is a level of fitness and needing to hold x amount of watts for the entire ride.

And correct, people could complete the ride on a level which is less than this, but the point I was making and what you alluded to in an earlier post is that this would require a fair amount of mental strength.

Train hard, ride easy.


LMT, you'd have been a lot clearer if you'd have mentioned the magic letters "FTP" or even given it it's full name of "Functional Threshold Power".  Now I recognised it immediately as an FTP due to its being in the right ballpark, but them wot don't like obsessing over numbers aren't going to do that, so you need to actually name it.  It's all useless info to anyone who doesn't have a power meter anyway, as Strava 'power' figures ignore so many unmeasured variables as to be completely pointless.  I'm currently looking at two 50 mile TTs that I did on the same course, on the same bike.  I went 4 minutes faster on the second ride, but my Strava power is 130W lower! 

Anyway, like Fidgetbuzz says, if the OP rides 200km in 8.5 hours, speed isn't the issue, it's staying comfy on the bike for four days.

I could not have been any more clearer if I tried, the OP asked about fitness and I quoted them the 'golden ratio' anyone who has an understanding regarding fitness will know their w/kg, and they know that this is based on their ftp/weight in kilos as Ferrari intended when he came up with the concept. If people who are ignorant wish to misinterpret this as holding this throughout the entire ride without computing that this is impossible then that's their problem, for example Froome's w/kg will be in the 6.2-6.3/kg range but it would be impossible to hold this for the length of a grand tour stage.

And the OP does not have to worry about comfort issues, as they will be riding a bike that is designed around them rather than one that was born from an organisation whose palms were greased back in 1934.

If I was them I'd would look at building up my all day wattage, and look into how much nutrition and fluids I need to sustain this and go on from there.

Your Strava power data, it's an irrelevant algorithm and is not something I would base my rides on, I prefer a crank based system and would pace my ride off of this.   

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #36 on: 24 September, 2016, 09:14:18 pm »


two 200s a month? now I am worried.  I have done a number of 200s and typically get to 200km in about 9 hours total time (+/-15 minutes), my 300km (the dean) took, I think, 15 hours, so that should give me enough sleeping time. do 300km, eat, 7 hours sleep, eat, go again.

My plan for the year ahead is a 200km each month through to March,  300km in April, 600km in May 400km in June with then maybe LEL.I doubt I can make more time available for cycling than this unless I wait a few years.  (I would expect to do a 100km every saturday when I don;t do a 200km)
 I think the body is capable, but the difficulty is in the mind. I find a 200km ride is completely enjoyable, but I found the 300km and 400km ride this year to go beyond the enjoyable phase, becoming more of a chore. How I could endure that for 5 consecutive days I don't know.

as a plan B I know I can survive on 4 hours sleep for 2 or 3 nights in a row.

My experience this year everything mostly a bit meh and the 10ton a glorious pub crawl.

But then. 🇧🇪

rob

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #37 on: 24 September, 2016, 09:14:36 pm »
What is and isn't enough riding depends on the individual.   I know I can't handle the volumes that some people do and recover in time for the next ride.

You have to learn the signs coming from your body and your head.

rob

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #38 on: 24 September, 2016, 09:22:50 pm »
Just the one more time for anyone listening.   You don't need to know your power numbers to complete a long randonnee.

I hope you all have a good ride.

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #39 on: 24 September, 2016, 09:32:00 pm »
What is and isn't enough riding depends on the individual.   I know I can't handle the volumes that some people do and recover in time for the next ride.

You have to learn the signs coming from your body and your head.
+1
And how do you learn those signs? Experience. As per the classic Merckx advice: ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike. Whether for you that means an SR every month, or just a 200 whenever work, family & "real life" allows, ride your bike.

+1 also to Marcus JB's boiled-down formula up-thread too
Eddington Number = 132

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #40 on: 24 September, 2016, 09:38:45 pm »
A lot of the enthusiastic audaxers here recommend doing large numbers of brevets in preparation for LEL. That approach provides confidence but riders can successfully get away with a lot fewer brevet.

... and I knew someone who tried to prepare for last LEL by doing massive amounts of long brevets.  He was too slow to start off with and he got slower and slower with each Saturday night's sleep he lost out on the road.

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #41 on: 24 September, 2016, 09:58:07 pm »
...... keep up steady 200s during the winter .. 2 a month .. + other shorter faster rides. Get into the longer 300,400, 600 as early as you can in 2017. ....

two 200s a month?

Sorry .. I am a geriatric with time on my hands .. I should have said .. If family, real life , work , other pressures etc etc  allows .. " do 2 ..200s a month"   but in reality just decent time on a bike in the winter is well worth it.
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #42 on: 24 September, 2016, 10:00:11 pm »
As i always tell people, your better off working on speed then doing 400km plus rides every week.

I.e. do a S.R.(4rides)then at our times shorter rides 30 to 100miles but try to ride them faster.

On things like LEL the faster you can ride during the day, the more sleep you get at night. Simple

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #43 on: 24 September, 2016, 10:11:24 pm »
People are missing the point that I thought I made quite clear, better fitness means less mental fortitude is needed.
No - they are not, they are taking issue with the rest of your post.
You might want to aim for 4w/kg, but since you didnt specify a time period, later posters were pointing out that it is perfectly possible to complete LEL with wattages of one-half, one-third or even less than this over the course of the sort of ride that the OP has already completed.

Consider it from poiint of view of a newcomer to this game.  Rides his/her first 200 and maybe Strava says he's averaging not much more than 1w/kg, and then someone comes along and announces a benchmark of at least 4w/kg.  What a way to put people off !

4w/kg is a level of fitness, it's nothing to do with holding a wattage for any longer than what is needed in order to carry out a FTP test - you are clearly getting confused with what is a level of fitness and needing to hold x amount of watts for the entire ride.

And correct, people could complete the ride on a level which is less than this, but the point I was making and what you alluded to in an earlier post is that this would require a fair amount of mental strength.

Train hard, ride easy.


LMT, you'd have been a lot clearer if you'd have mentioned the magic letters "FTP" or even given it it's full name of "Functional Threshold Power".  Now I recognised it immediately as an FTP due to its being in the right ballpark, but them wot don't like obsessing over numbers aren't going to do that, so you need to actually name it.  It's all useless info to anyone who doesn't have a power meter anyway, as Strava 'power' figures ignore so many unmeasured variables as to be completely pointless.  I'm currently looking at two 50 mile TTs that I did on the same course, on the same bike.  I went 4 minutes faster on the second ride, but my Strava power is 130W lower! 

Anyway, like Fidgetbuzz says, if the OP rides 200km in 8.5 hours, speed isn't the issue, it's staying comfy on the bike for four days.

I could not have been any more clearer if I tried, the OP asked about fitness and I quoted them the 'golden ratio' anyone who has an understanding regarding fitness will know their w/kg, and they know that this is based on their ftp/weight in kilos as Ferrari intended when he came up with the concept. If people who are ignorant wish to misinterpret this as holding this throughout the entire ride without computing that this is impossible then that's their problem, for example Froome's w/kg will be in the 6.2-6.3/kg range but it would be impossible to hold this for the length of a grand tour stage.

And the OP does not have to worry about comfort issues, as they will be riding a bike that is designed around them rather than one that was born from an organisation whose palms were greased back in 1934.

If I was them I'd would look at building up my all day wattage, and look into how much nutrition and fluids I need to sustain this and go on from there.

Your Strava power data, it's an irrelevant algorithm and is not something I would base my rides on, I prefer a crank based system and would pace my ride off of this.

You could have been a hell of a lot clearer.  I know 4W/kg over 1400km is not achievable, but from your initial response, I had nothing whatsoever to link your number to FTP.  I've not tested mine for a long time btw. 

Also you have given no basis as to why you consider an FTP of 4W/kg to be required for LEL success.

Finally I don't have, and don't intend to buy a power meter, the best I will have is the turbo trainer.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #44 on: 24 September, 2016, 10:22:41 pm »
My person view and YMMV is the comfort on the bike is almost more important than anything along with the mental fortitude.

I failed last time for 3 reasons:
  • Bike setup: I got numb hands and lost function in my hands
  • GI problems: I got the runs in the first 24 hours and got into a severe calorie deficit
  • I mentally gave up as a result.

I could probably have resolved the second and possibly even the first with some help.  In physical terms I was quite happily doing solo 300 and 400 rides.  I probably in retrospect should have done more hills rather than flat rides.

LMT

Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #45 on: 24 September, 2016, 11:41:49 pm »
People are missing the point that I thought I made quite clear, better fitness means less mental fortitude is needed.
No - they are not, they are taking issue with the rest of your post.
You might want to aim for 4w/kg, but since you didnt specify a time period, later posters were pointing out that it is perfectly possible to complete LEL with wattages of one-half, one-third or even less than this over the course of the sort of ride that the OP has already completed.

Consider it from poiint of view of a newcomer to this game.  Rides his/her first 200 and maybe Strava says he's averaging not much more than 1w/kg, and then someone comes along and announces a benchmark of at least 4w/kg.  What a way to put people off !

4w/kg is a level of fitness, it's nothing to do with holding a wattage for any longer than what is needed in order to carry out a FTP test - you are clearly getting confused with what is a level of fitness and needing to hold x amount of watts for the entire ride.

And correct, people could complete the ride on a level which is less than this, but the point I was making and what you alluded to in an earlier post is that this would require a fair amount of mental strength.

Train hard, ride easy.


LMT, you'd have been a lot clearer if you'd have mentioned the magic letters "FTP" or even given it it's full name of "Functional Threshold Power".  Now I recognised it immediately as an FTP due to its being in the right ballpark, but them wot don't like obsessing over numbers aren't going to do that, so you need to actually name it.  It's all useless info to anyone who doesn't have a power meter anyway, as Strava 'power' figures ignore so many unmeasured variables as to be completely pointless.  I'm currently looking at two 50 mile TTs that I did on the same course, on the same bike.  I went 4 minutes faster on the second ride, but my Strava power is 130W lower! 

Anyway, like Fidgetbuzz says, if the OP rides 200km in 8.5 hours, speed isn't the issue, it's staying comfy on the bike for four days.

I could not have been any more clearer if I tried, the OP asked about fitness and I quoted them the 'golden ratio' anyone who has an understanding regarding fitness will know their w/kg, and they know that this is based on their ftp/weight in kilos as Ferrari intended when he came up with the concept. If people who are ignorant wish to misinterpret this as holding this throughout the entire ride without computing that this is impossible then that's their problem, for example Froome's w/kg will be in the 6.2-6.3/kg range but it would be impossible to hold this for the length of a grand tour stage.

And the OP does not have to worry about comfort issues, as they will be riding a bike that is designed around them rather than one that was born from an organisation whose palms were greased back in 1934.

If I was them I'd would look at building up my all day wattage, and look into how much nutrition and fluids I need to sustain this and go on from there.

Your Strava power data, it's an irrelevant algorithm and is not something I would base my rides on, I prefer a crank based system and would pace my ride off of this.

You could have been a hell of a lot clearer.  I know 4W/kg over 1400km is not achievable, but from your initial response, I had nothing whatsoever to link your number to FTP.  I've not tested mine for a long time btw. 

Also you have given no basis as to why you consider an FTP of 4W/kg to be required for LEL success.

Finally I don't have, and don't intend to buy a power meter, the best I will have is the turbo trainer.

You asked about fitness level, I quote a fitness level to you which is a) according to Coggan's chart is a strong cat 3, borderline cat 2 b) achievable being a FTP of 280 watts for a 70kg being.


ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #46 on: 24 September, 2016, 11:55:28 pm »
I'd prefer you not post on this thread any more, you've not added anything and just managed to create an argument out of nothing by your attitude that you must be right and everyone is deliberately misinterpreting you
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #47 on: 25 September, 2016, 12:03:41 am »
God, it's getting like the TT forum on here.

You don't need to know your power numbers to complete LEL.   You also shouldn't really care. 

I'd aim to be able to get round a lumpy 600k and be able to have 2-3hrs kip.   Once you've managed that you can deal with LEL as the min speed is lower.

Definitely concentrate on maximising speed of passage through controls.

Where's the like button. ;)

Alex B

  • Headwind specialist
    • Where is there an end of it?
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #48 on: 25 September, 2016, 02:17:52 am »
I'd say being able to produce 4 watts/kg (for an hour, i.e. at FTP) is vastly in excess of what's needed to complete LEL. Such a rider will typically cruise around at 30 km/h and get oodles of sleep.

I am new to audax (first SR this year) and have power figures for all my rides. My FTP is 197 watts, and I (just) managed the BCM weighing 74 kg with a meagre 2.7 watts/kg at FTP (so according to Coggan's classification I'm "untrained" or "not a racer"!). This is probably more like the actual minimum power figure for a full value LEL effort: with good control discipline you'd just get enough time for adequate sleep.

Of course more is always nice, and "weight down, power up" is my mantra for my about-to-start LEL training -- but I'm sure many other factors are just as, or more, important as others have said.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL fitness - what's really required
« Reply #49 on: 25 September, 2016, 11:01:02 am »
I'd say being able to produce 4 watts/kg (for an hour, i.e. at FTP) is vastly in excess of what's needed to complete LEL. Such a rider will typically cruise around at 30 km/h and get oodles of sleep.

I am new to audax (first SR this year) and have power figures for all my rides. My FTP is 197 watts, and I (just) managed the BCM weighing 74 kg with a meagre 2.7 watts/kg at FTP (so according to Coggan's classification I'm "untrained" or "not a racer"!). This is probably more like the actual minimum power figure for a full value LEL effort: with good control discipline you'd just get enough time for adequate sleep.

Of course more is always nice, and "weight down, power up" is my mantra for my about-to-start LEL training -- but I'm sure many other factors are just as, or more, important as others have said.

In contrast to my friend Alex, I have no clue what my FTP is, nor how much power I'm outputting on a ride.  I've ridden both LEL (2013) and PBP (2015) and got around both at just over 20kph moving average, with lousy control discipline and really poor sleep ... "no plan survives contact with the enemy" and all that.

That said, Alex has been somewhat scientific in his approach to training this year and he has visibly improved —  :thumbsup: — so it's not a bad thing to know your numbers per se, nor to use that data to pace your ride, but it is certainly NOT necessary to do so for a successful LEL attempt.  I think most entrants will have no idea what their FTP is nor what their realtime power output is either.

Just a thought: 1420km @ 20kph = 71 hours moving time.  17 controls @ 1 hour each = 17 hours.  116h40m - 71h - 17h = 28 hours.  Expect to sleep for just (!!) 27 hours then between Sunday and Thursday and finish with an hour in hand.  Ride faster to leave more time at the controls.  Control quicker to leave more time for sleep.  And then expect to be unable to get a bed at the first night's stop when everyone else is trying to do the same.  And expect to be kicked out of bed after a few hours because someone else needs it.  When I do this sum I'm left thinking "where did the time go?!" — I slept for maybe 12.5 hours on LEL and 6 hours on PBP, so I must've spent large chunks of time sat in controls, ahem, "meditating" or something  :facepalm:
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...