Author Topic: Pro cycle racing explained  (Read 8003 times)

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #25 on: 11 July, 2021, 09:22:22 pm »
Re the "what happens if the leader of the magic jumper is leading another jumper too" question. Yes, second place gets to wear the lesser jumper. For example the current Magic Jumper holder is Pog. Being a youngster he's also leading the young rider (white jersey) competition. Second place at the start of Sunday's stage was Vingegaard, so he was in white.
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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #26 on: 11 July, 2021, 09:22:32 pm »
In the 1969 Tour, Eddy Merckx managed to win the yellow, green and polkadot jerseys. The white jersey didn’t exist then but he would have won that classification. His team also won that classification. Nobody else has managed to do that. On multiple occasions, he won two of the three classification jerseys in grand tours. Few racers have done that even once. There is a reason Merckx is known as the greatest racing cyclist of all time.

The second placed rider wears the lesser jersey during the race (the sponsor needs their publicity) but the actual winner takes the jersey (and prize money) home at the end of the race.

In previous TdFs, there has been a separate sprint jersey (red) for the intermediate sprints and the green jersey was purely for stage finishes. There was also a combined jersey for the lowest combination of overall, points and climbing classifications. More jerseys means more sponsorship!
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #27 on: 11 July, 2021, 09:29:50 pm »
Q11b: Yes.

Q12: The time limit for a stage is a bit of a moving target, because it depends on the difficulty, or "coefficient" of the stage and the average speed of the stage winner, but essentially, the higher the coefficient, the greater the cut-off gets for a given average speed bracket, and the faster the stage has been ridden, the more time is allowed.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/how-do-tour-de-france-time-cuts-work

That, or it's worked out by playing Numberwang via the medium of interpretative dance...

So if a stage is ridden sufficiently slowly, the cut off becomes very close to the finish time?

J

For certain values of very close:

Quote
Coefficient 1 (no particular difficulty): time cut ranges from 3–11 percent of the stage winner’s time
Coefficient 2 (medium difficulty): 6–18 percent
Coefficient 3 (short stages on hilly terrain): 10–22 percent
Coefficient 4 (very difficult): 7–18 percent
Coefficient 5 (very difficult short stage): 11–22 percent
Coefficient 6 (time trials): 25 percent

https://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-france/a20030938/tour-de-france-time-cut/

Mind you, the odds of a Coefficient 1 stage ridden by the winner at less than 36 km/h, which would set the time cut at 3%, are pretty small.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #28 on: 11 July, 2021, 09:35:35 pm »
The ‘most aggressive’ rider never used to get a jersey (do they get one now?). Sometimes they would get a red number. They were selected each day based on who ‘deserved’ it, usually by the race organisers, sometimes by the journalists. Similarly, the TdF has had a pedaleur d’charme or ‘most elegant rider’ daily award, always chosen by the journalists. These sorts of awards usually went to a deserving rider who may have had bad luck with an unsuccessful attack or who livened up an otherwise boring day and gave the journalists something interesting to write about.

The lanterne rouge was an award for last overall rider in the tour. It was something else for journalists to write about and gave some publicity (and cash) to a rider who had likely crashed hard or overcome sickness to struggle through.

Some of these awards are obsolete now but still referred to in TdF articles.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #29 on: 11 July, 2021, 09:37:08 pm »
The ‘most aggressive’ rider never used to get a jersey (do they get one now?). Sometimes they would get a red number. They were selected each day based on who ‘deserved’ it, usually by the race organisers, sometimes by the journalists.

No jersey, but they do get the red number.

One of the key criteria for 'deserving it' is usually being more French than the other candidates.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
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Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #30 on: 11 July, 2021, 09:42:08 pm »
Adding to Spesh's bit about time limits, the Commissaires can, at their discretion, reinstate riders who have finished after the cutoff time.  Normally this happens when the autobus consists of so many riders that there wouldn’t be much of a race left if they were all sent home, but occasionally they'll let one back in if he’s been unlucky. Rick Zabel missed the cutoff by 3 seconds one year but they let him back in because he'd had a mechanical on the last climb.  Current rules state that reinstated riders lose ALL* their points in the, er, Points and Mountains competitions, so were it to happen to Cav, someone else would win the green jersey this year even if he subsequently made it to Paris.

A pedant notes that while His Eddyness was KotM in 1969 he didn’t win the spottyjumper as the jersey itself was only introduced in 1975.

* Although TV's Matt Rendell was unsure about this the other day – unusually, as he knows everything about the history of bike racing – everyone else seems to think this is the case.
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Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #31 on: 11 July, 2021, 09:44:23 pm »
In the 1969 Tour, Eddy Merckx managed to win the yellow, green and polkadot jerseys. The white jersey didn’t exist then but he would have won that classification. His team also won that classification. Nobody else has managed to do that. On multiple occasions, he won two of the three classification jerseys in grand tours. Few racers have done that even once. There is a reason Merckx is known as the greatest racing cyclist of all time.

The second placed rider wears the lesser jersey during the race (the sponsor needs their publicity) but the actual winner takes the jersey (and prize money) home at the end of the race.

In previous TdFs, there has been a separate sprint jersey (red) for the intermediate sprints and the green jersey was purely for stage finishes. There was also a combined jersey for the lowest combination of overall, points and climbing classifications. More jerseys means more sponsorship!

Hence my reply no. 12 to question 11a above.  But your explanation is more informative than my (usually) glib one!  ;)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #32 on: 11 July, 2021, 09:44:27 pm »
Pedantry acknowledged re. KoM jersey.

For completeness, the TdF yellow jersey was not always awarded for the lowest cumulative time. For a time before WW2 (correction: WW1), it was awarded for cumulative points alone as the points competition had not been created yet.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #33 on: 11 July, 2021, 10:16:10 pm »
8.0) Young category 26? That's too old to be young. IMO it should be reduced to about, say,
under 24 on 1st Jan of the year a particular tour is being raced.

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
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Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #34 on: 11 July, 2021, 10:21:28 pm »
The Giro seems to have hunners* of sub-jerseys that don't get much of a mention. Everyone gets a prize!




*Slight eggsageration

Pingu

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Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #35 on: 11 July, 2021, 10:24:49 pm »
Logistics mean that some phenomenal roads and mountains will never feature in the TdF. Finish lines need to have large areas to park all the team and race vehicles, to set up grandstands for the VIPs, have alternate routes so that team buses aren’t using the race route and so on...

Though they can have finishes in small areas if they put their minds to it. Col du Galibier springs to mind.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #36 on: 11 July, 2021, 10:30:45 pm »
The Galibier is a special case. The Desgrange memorial is just by the summit tunnel. The necessary compromises are too much most of the time.

The Puy de Dome is too much hassle for the modern TdF with no second route down.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

benborp

  • benbravoorpapa
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #37 on: 11 July, 2021, 11:17:53 pm »
A note on prizes: traditionally the accrued prize money from the individual points competitions was distributed amongst the team. Non-monetary prizes such as cows would occasionally present complications.

Winners of points competitions (and the lantern rouge) would frequently cash in by being paid appearance money for track events over the winter months.
A world of bedlam trapped inside a small cyclist.

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
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    • the Igloo
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #38 on: 11 July, 2021, 11:26:38 pm »
The Galibier is a special case...

I think that's what I said.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #39 on: 11 July, 2021, 11:27:02 pm »
Bobet in ‘53 was the first to share his prize money with his team, to stop his teammates from competing with him.
http://pelotontales.com/tour-de-france-1953/
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #40 on: 12 July, 2021, 12:22:00 am »
One of the key criteria for 'deserving it' is usually being more French than the other candidates.
Some tours (e.g. the Tour of Britain) are more honest and have a "best home rider" jersey.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #41 on: 12 July, 2021, 12:46:23 am »
One of the key criteria for 'deserving it' is usually being more French than the other candidates.

Given how often it was French riders (Jacky Durand being the textbook example) who'd get into the break of the day, thus ensuring plenty of exposure for the team sponsors before the sprinters' teams ensured they'd get caught with a few hundred meters or a few km to go...

In the post- Fignon and Hinault era, just think of the prix combatif as the participation prize for the French.  :demon:
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #42 on: 12 July, 2021, 01:08:01 am »
Marc Hirschi, a self-confessed Schnibble, won the Super-Combativité last year.  Standirds r slippin'.

Vehicular Stuffs: in addition to the divers motorcycles already mentioned there’s (Usually? Always?) one carrying water bottles somewhere up near the stage leaders, to save them the hassle of fetching bottles from their team car.  It can probably be assumed that these contain plain water rather than any exotic cocktail of [“fruit” – Ed.].

The bloke standing in a red Škoda with his upper body protruding through the sunroof in a manner almost, but not quite, entirely unlike Botticelli's Venus emerging from the sea is race director Christian Prudhomme, unless he's tested +ve for Coronalurgi and has been supplanted by his deputy François Lemarchand.  He normally only does this at the end of the ceremonial roll-out at the start of a road stage, before waving his little fleg to start the stage proper, or waving his arms like the Malmesbury Monk failing to fly, to indicate to the riders that the start has been delayed because some poor sod is trying to catch up after a mechanical in the neutral zone.

Sometimes the red official cars were driven by ex-racing drivers but I think they dropped that idea after Jacky Ickx terrified one car-load of vips and finks utterly to DETH in the Alps.
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Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #43 on: 12 July, 2021, 07:17:18 am »

The myth of mountain categories was that it was the gear needed for a 2CV to get to the top. If it couldn’t get to the top, it was ‘beyond categorisation’.


That couldn't possibly true. As every former 2CV owner knows, you can get it to the top of anything if you take out the spare seats and have a decent recumbent with a tow rope in front.
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #44 on: 12 July, 2021, 07:25:20 am »
19) They have a pretty bloke too these days, to balance things out.  One day they'll have Shane McGowan and Ann Widdecombe dispensing bad breath and hellfire respectively but, for now, they're sticking with pretty.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #45 on: 12 July, 2021, 07:32:08 am »
I believe the numbers on the climbs were originally based on the gear needed to get a car up the hill with the H (hors) category being so steep you needed to go in reverse.
This may well be a myth of course.

That is generally held to be the case. I believe it was a large and heavy early Citroen.
Now it’s based on a look at overall height gain, steepness and a few other things

Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #46 on: 12 July, 2021, 07:40:41 am »
8.0) Young category 26? That's too old to be young. IMO it should be reduced to about, say,
under 24 on 1st Jan of the year a particular tour is being raced.

It has varied, in 1984 it was for the first rider who had not previously ridden the event (Lemond won it)
A friend of mine won the Tour Feminin White Jersey overall in the 1984 race - all 18 stages of it. She still doesn’t know what the criteria were - possibly youngest finisher.
It’s worth noting that the women category winners shared the podium with the male winners in Paris.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #47 on: 12 July, 2021, 07:53:52 am »
Back to the spotty jumper's spots: It was originally an homardge on the part of Félix Lévitan, who decided to copy the jersey of Henri Lemoine, a well-known track rider in the 1930s, whose colours earned him the nickname "P'tits pois" (little peas).

Quote
Il s'agit en fait d'un hommage de Félix Lévitan, alors directeur du Tour, qui décide de reprendre la tenue d’Henri Lemoine, très bon pistard des années 1930, et dont les couleurs lui avaient valu le surnom de « P’tits pois ».

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Prix_de_la_montagne_du_Tour_de_France
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Lemoine

However, that isn't entirely accurate.  Lemoine was half of a track duo, the other half being one Marcel Guimbretière, and they both wore spotty jumpers.  They referred to their team as "Les P'tits Pois".

And now you know as much as I didn't 10 minutes ago.

I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #48 on: 12 July, 2021, 08:26:34 am »
Logistics mean that some phenomenal roads and mountains will never feature in the TdF. Finish lines need to have large areas to park all the team and race vehicles, to set up grandstands for the VIPs, have alternate routes so that team buses aren’t using the race route and so on. Stage towns need all of that plus sufficient accommodation in the surrounding area to accommodate the race and to still sell enough accommodation to the public to justify buying the right to have the TdF or Giro overnight in your region. Part of the reason there are all those photogenic tableaus by the roadside and the race commentators describe the local attractions and delicacies is because the local government wants tourists to visit the region after the race has gone through. Publicity, again.
Ah, there was a bit of a fracas a year Orr two back when they had a mountain top finish on a hill that only had the one road on it. The lead competitors (and I think some of the vehicles) started back down the mountain before everyone had finished resulting in said fracas.
Or did I dream thwt?
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Re: Pro cycle racing explained
« Reply #49 on: 12 July, 2021, 09:39:23 am »
8.0) Young category 26? That's too old to be young. IMO it should be reduced to about, say,
under 24 on 1st Jan of the year a particular tour is being raced.

The 26 cut-off may have to do with the 26 -32 bracket being considered (by some, and by results perhaps, YMMV) the prime years for pro-cyclists, but the emergence of MVdP, WVA, Evenpoel et al, and most of all Pogecar, make a bit of a mockery of the 26 upper age limit for 'young' riders.

At the other end of the scale, late flowerings (Horner) and extended careers (Valverde) look, at best, dubious, so perhaps better that there's no awards for 'best veteran rider'....
They laughed when I said I was going to be a stand-up comedian. They're not laughing now.