PBP country quotas again

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Reading the latest PBP plaquette, almost the organiser’s last comment is about reintroducing country quotas for the next PBP, “based on past successes.”

I guess that means that countries with low DNF/ high finish rates will get some sort of priority. Seems like a reasonable approach, given how important finishing PBP is to the ACP. Makes it tougher for Asian randonneurs to get to the start though.

This would be a better option than their previous attempt at country quotas based on the number of BRMs ridden per country the previous year.

[LateStarter]

There was also comment about needing a French minimum quota to ensure more local riders got a start. It is a long time ago now but I thought that no qualified riders missed out on a place although some may have stopped their qualification rides when it looked like only pre-qualified riders would get in (which turned out not to be the case with almost 1000 non pre-qualified starters registering in the second round after the high non conversion rate from pre-qualified riders).

[Ajax Bay]

THIERRY RIVET:
"Préinscriptions et inscriptions
Elles  ont  été  très  compliquées  du  fait  d’une forte demande de participation et d’un nombre de préinscriptions - plus de 1600 - restées sans suite. Les Français, qui font moins de longues distances, ne représentaient  plus  que  24%  des  parti-cipants. Il faudra donc envisager de leur réserver  un  quota  de  places  pour  cette  épreuve née et organisée sur le territoire français."
Registrations [extract]
More than 1600 pre-registrations were not conveted to registration. Only 24% of riders were from France. We need to consider reserving a quota of places for them (French riders), as this event was born and is organised in France.

"Les homologations
Cette édition a vu un nombre important de  hors  délai  (245,  sans  compter  ceux  arrivés  quand  tout  était  fini)  et  surtout  d’abandons  (1790  soit  27,9%).  C’est  l’Asie  qui  plombe  les  résultats  avec  un  taux de 61,9% ! Beaucoup n’étaient ma-nifestement pas préparés pour une telle épreuve.  On  envisage  de  remettre  des  quotas  par  pays,  en  fonction  des  réus-sites passées."
Homologations [extract]
. . . many did not finish (1790 - 28%). The continent of Asia had 62% dropouts! Many riders were clearly not prepared for the challenge. We may set country quotas, based on past success.

[Wycombewheeler]

There was also comment about needing a French minimum quota to ensure more local riders got a start. It is a long time ago now but I thought that no qualified riders missed out on a place although some may have stopped their qualification rides when it looked like only pre-qualified riders would get in (which turned out not to be the case with almost 1000 non pre-qualified starters registering in the second round after the high non conversion rate from pre-qualified riders).

That is my recollection places were opened up again, but due to previous announcements that this would not happen people may not have bothered with the qualifying brevet and it was too late to recover.

[Phil W]

The Organizer's ride report in the magazine they've sent out covers some of this plus talks about the difficulties of the start and cobbles and finish etc.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

That magazine is the PBP plaquette.
http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/plaquettes.html

[LittleWheelsandBig]

There was a much larger (than normal) percentage of people who entered PBP but didn’t finalise their entries. PBP accepted more entries than their maximum capacity, expecting that rider numbers would drop after entering but not by that much.

When pre-qualified riders just about maxed out entry places, most non-pre-qualified PBP hopefuls didn’t ride the longer qualifiers and so were unable to take up the vacated places on the start line.

[Nebulous]

That magazine is the PBP plaquette.
http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/plaquettes.html

New one here:- http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=presentation&page=information_general&fbclid=IwAR0ZBJBM8B33DW5Ski15cIlLCii6zunrNI_wwH8LjkW0cr9uPRmyrsHo9PE#

[Hofnar]

There was a much larger (than normal) percentage of people who entered PBP but didn’t finalise their entries. PBP accepted more entries than their maximum capacity, expecting that rider numbers would drop after entering but not by that much.

When pre-qualified riders just about maxed out entry places, most non-pre-qualified PBP hopefuls didn’t ride the longer qualifiers and so were unable to take up the vacated places on the start line.

So familiar Places where only opened up about two weeks before closure time. very hard to organise another brevet. I was going round my 600 when I got a call to say not all was lost and keep some in the tank. The official news came one hour after I finished. Was very lucky as that I was on leave at the time and that they organised a 400 in the days after so that I could fill the missing slot in my SR series. Many will not have been that lucky.

Whilst doing my 300 a lot earlier news was to have no hope so many decided that this would be their last brevet and look for other goals for their cycling year.

[Von Broad]

When pre-qualified riders just about maxed out entry places, most non-pre-qualified PBP hopefuls didn’t ride the longer qualifiers and so were unable to take up the vacated places on the start line.

Guilty as charged m'Lord.

Thinking back to that time, there was so much hoo-ha about prequalifing riders who only had a 300km in the bank whether they would get over the line, and as for the 200km mob, well..forget it matey, not a cat in hells chance. So when it was announced, taking everybody by surprise, that qualification was about to reopen for the lazy non-prequalifiers, most of us just kind of thought...err....'wtf'? Afterall that drama?

Course, serves me right, if you ain't done the ride, you ain't got the time, but I'm not that hard core to do a 600km ride for the sheer enjoyment of it all....'just in case'

[quixoticgeek]

The quota idea brings up some interesting questions

1) How will they decide who from each country gets a slot? 1st come 1st served? Lottery?

2) How will they define who is on which country? Do I count as Dutch, or British? Could we see people joining smaller countries national clubs so as to make use of their quota?

It creates a lot of edge cases.

J

[Ivo]

2) How will they define who is on which country? Do I count as Dutch, or British? Could we see people joining smaller countries national clubs so as to make use of their quota?

In the past club membership counted so it would depend on which club you enter (AUK or Randonneurs NL).
Joining the FFCT as an individual member could be an interesting idea though.

[Ajax Bay]

When pre-qualified riders just about maxed out entry places, most non-pre-qualified PBP hopefuls didn’t ride the longer qualifiers and so were unable to take up the vacated places on the start line.

These "non-pre-qualified PBP hopefuls" were riders who'd not even ridden a single 200 BRM in 2017/18. Too much 'hope' and not enough riding in my estimation (some limited by injury/illness/real life I acknowledge).
I guess that they'll 'know' next time, then, and crack on with a 2023 BRM SR for its own sake, and if that means they find there are 'late'PBP places available then they'll be qualified.
I'd encourage anyone with a mind to ride PBP to achieve an SR the previous year as well. Is this really "hard core"? "To do a 600km ride for the sheer enjoyment of it all"? Isn't that what - for those aspiring to PBP - exactly what it's all about.

[rob]

There's a lot of people that just disappear for the 3 years between PBPs.   The event itself is special for them, but audaxing as a whole is not.

It used to be possible to take the sport up in January, qualify and finish PBP before moving onto something different the next year.   Those days are probably gone.

That said the DNF rate from the Far East is shocking and those entries took places away from (probably French) riders that could have completed successfully.   PBP is not that hard a ride.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

A big + 1 to rob's comments. It used to be commonplace for riders to float into brevets for a year, do PBP and float out again. French riders in particular would do BRMs only 1 year in 4, even with multiple PBPs under their belt. There are just so many other options on offer.

Most PBPers are one-time only, moving on to other targets in cycling or life. It was always fun watching a rider go from a longest ride of 100km to PBP in 6 months. Just look at the list of PBP recidivists to see how rare multi-PBPers are. The hard-nut AUK with 10xSR, etc. is very much at the pointy end of the bell curve.
http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/recidivistes/main.html

[madcow]

Most PBPers are one-time only, moving on to other targets in cycling or life.  The hard-nut AUK with 10xSR, etc. is very much at the pointy end of the bell curve.
http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/recidivistes/main.html

Whereas if you follow this board ,you would think that you were in the minority if you HAVEN'T done more than one.
Are AUKs gluttons for punishment ?

[Ajax Bay]

That said the DNF rate from the Far East is shocking and those entries took places away from (probably French) riders that could have completed successfully.   PBP is not that hard a ride.

Is there discussion elsewhere which seeks to discover the reasons for that DNF rate? We discussed this in the pub last night and the general view was that it's lack of experience in N European weather and temperature, and maybe a contribution from unfamiliar nutrition. We have to assume that every entrant had proved themselves on a BRM standard SR, so as you say, "PBP is not that hard a ride" with so much tlc at controls and on the roadside, and other riders to help people along.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It is not just the effects of lower temperatures or even jetlag with little time to adjust, though both are significant contributors.

Some countries ride their brevets on very flat routes. Indian and Thai brevets are mostly ridden on roads that match the Dutch for detecting the Earth's curvature. Very few brevets in either country include the sort of frequent, noticeable hills that permeate PBP. It was quite noticeable at LEL17 that Indians who had previously completed 1200s in their own country were trying to coast up steep hills.

The early USA PBP qualifiers had the same problem back in the 1970s and very high DNF rates were the result. By the late-80s, their organisers made a point of picking challenging routes (even in Florida!) and their DNF rate noticeably improved.

[quixoticgeek]

It is not just the effects of lower temperatures or even jetlag with little time to adjust, though both are significant contributors.

Some countries ride their brevets on very flat routes. Indian and Thai brevets are mostly ridden on roads that match the Dutch for detecting the Earth's curvature. Very few brevets in either country include the sort of frequent, noticeable hills that permeate PBP. It was quite noticeable at LEL17 that Indians who had previously completed 1200s in their own country were trying to coast up steep hills.

The early USA PBP qualifiers had the same problem back in the 1970s and very high DNF rates were the result. By the late-80s, their organisers made a point of picking challenging routes (even in Florida!) and their DNF rate noticeably improved.

If flatness is an issue, would be interesting to compare with NL success rates, lets face it, we don't do that much with the hills!

J

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The Dutch are not fazed by French temperatures and food (which are major issues for some folk - ham and cheese?) and jetlag does not apply. There is also a very long history of the Dutch at PBP; they understand what is involved.

[Wycombewheeler]

It is not just the effects of lower temperatures or even jetlag with little time to adjust, though both are significant contributors.

Some countries ride their brevets on very flat routes. Indian and Thai brevets are mostly ridden on roads that match the Dutch for detecting the Earth's curvature. Very few brevets in either country include the sort of frequent, noticeable hills that permeate PBP. It was quite noticeable at LEL17 that Indians who had previously completed 1200s in their own country were trying to coast up steep hills.

The early USA PBP qualifiers had the same problem back in the 1970s and very high DNF rates were the result. By the late-80s, their organisers made a point of picking challenging routes (even in Florida!) and their DNF rate noticeably improved.

If flatness is an issue, would be interesting to compare with NL success rates, lets face it, we don't do that much with the hills!

J

I think the Dutch know well enough what is required, you dont have to go far into belgium/germany to find sufficient hills

[Ivo]

Plus some brevets in the south and the east which venture out into Belgian or German hills.

[FifeingEejit]

I did find myself in a group of tall riders mashing along on the first evening, going up was fine, I was one of the weaker climbers at that point.
It was the descending that caught me out.
20kmh on a twistyish looking down hill...
I extracted myself from it, hit 60kmh* near the bottom and never saw most of them again despite it going straight into another climb.
Some of them were Dutch, language and frame stickers/badge told me that.

Overall it's not going to be that much of an issue if you can't descend fast, as long as you can descend fast enough.
Not everyone has the wild mountain roads to practice going down hill on, but climbs can be "simulated" to an extent with wind.

*This may be an exaggeration by my memory.

[marcusjb]

It's a very interesting one and, whilst I've only ridden 3 PBPs, the riders from SE Asia and Indian sub-continent etc. looked more prepared in 2019.  Clothing appeared to be much more appropriate for sure.  Lots of woollie hats on show!

But that finishing rate is truly awful and it does have to improve especially when the participation of so many riders who are not even making it beyond a couple of controls excludes potential riders who have a better chance of completion.

Difficult one to square - the popularity of PBP, especially from these newer countries, is great; but equally, it now becoming a 2 year endeavour makes it much more difficult for some to make time in the preceding season and as Rob said, it totally excludes those who had never even heard of PBP until only a few months before the event (and I find that upsetting as someone who rode their first 200 in late 2010 and by early 2011 was hearing a lot about this ridiculously long ride in France - well, one things leads to another, and PBP 2011 happened for me and there were plenty more of us going from zero to hero that year).

I certainly hope that ACP read the riot act to all audax associations around the world that they need to challenge their riders more in their qualifiers and find some hills.  Aside from the different weather conditions (which in large respect can be dealt with through clothing (my personal view is it is harder for us NW europeans to adapt to 35+degrees and high humidity than it is to go the other way and layer up appropriately)), PBP is a hilly ride - I don't care what anyone says, you're always climbing or descending on PBP, there's very little flat stuff!

I know things change and I embrace newer countries taking part, but after 2 or 3 editions with poor completion rates (falling completion rates overall??), ACP need to put the relevant associations on notice.

We'll see what happens.  I know I'll have to ride a 600 or 1000 in 2022 as PBP number 4 is going to be a good one for me!

[Von Broad]

Difficult to know what's really going on until you've walked a mile in another person's shoes.
We'd have a much clearer perspective if the boot were to be very firmly plonked on the other foot and all us lot [Euro folk] had to get ourselves out to India to do a famous historical 1200km ride every four years. They would most likely be a unforseen factors that would throw a few spanners in the works along the way.