Intervals advice please

[hulver]

I want to start training with intervals on my turbo, as long turbo sessions don't really appeal to me.

I'd like to achieve two things.

1. Fat burning.
2. Improve my maximum power.

At the moment I'm not that fit. I've been off the bike for a couple of months.

I'm using a Heart Rate Monitor, and I've done a few sessions on the turbo using it. I worked out my max HR (193 was the highest I could get it), and I've been training mostly in the 60-70% range, with a final sprint to just > 90% at the end before a 10 minute cooling off period.

What sort of intervals are best for what I want to achieve?

2x20, 5x5?

What sort of HR percentages should I be in for those intervals?

I've looked at some of the previous threads on intervals, but I can't really work out what sort of HR range people are using in their different intervals.

Any advice gratefully received.

[border-rider]

Optimal fat burning needs long, steady work.  Endless hours at HRs of 120-140...not what I'd fancy doing on a turbo.

[simonp]

There are some studies that have reported increased post exercise fat burning with intervals (where the total energy expenditure was matched between interval and steady work).

The real fat burning zone
There are two components involved in the total energy cost of exercise: first, the energy cost of the activity itself, which accounts for most of the caloric expenditure; secondly, the energy expended in recovery while the metabolic rate remains elevated above resting levels. This 'excess postexercise oxygen consumption' (EPOC) is fuelled by fat. Intriguingly, not all exercise is sufficient to bring about a meaningful EPOC: it is generally agreed that such exercise must be carried out at more than 70% of VO2 max (4). Although this mechanism is not entirely understood, it seems that the metabolic disturbance of exercise determines the magnitude and duration of EPOC.

In order to recover from exercise, the body undertakes several active (energy-consuming) processes for up to an hour afterwards: phosphate is reunited with creatine and ADP; haemoglobin and myoglobin (oxygen-carrying pigment within the muscle) are resaturated with oxygen; lactate is oxidised or resynthesised to glycogen; circulation and breathing increase. In addition, the return to homeostasis following high-intensity exercise is further delayed by the demands of glycogen resynthesis and increased hormonal activity. Interestingly, in the glycogen-depleted state, this prolonged EPOC period is fuelled by lipid as blood glucose is used to replace muscle glycogen (3).

This postexercise fat burning zone barely exists after moderate-intensity exercise. In a 1992 study, participants cycling for 80 minutes at 29% of VO2 max experienced an elevated oxygen consumption (and energy expenditure) for 0.3 hours, compared with 3.3 hours for those exercising at 50% of VO2 max and 10.5 hours for those at 75% (4).

Clearly, the calorific value of EPOC has implications for those seeking to reduce body weight. Indeed, after 20 minutes of high intensity exercise (70% VO2max), Sedlock et al (5) observed an EPOC of approximately 30 kcal and calculated that if such exercise were performed five times a week for 52 weeks, the EPOC period alone would amount to 7,800 kcal or the energy equivalent of approximately 1 kg fat.

fat burning zone

[simonp]

I previously linked to this in the Weight Loss Discussion Thread:

Fat Burning Zone

A moderately fit athlete exercising at 50% VO2max generally consumes about 220 Calories during a 30 minute workout. If the same athlete works out at 75% VO2max, 330 Calories are burned during the same period. Of course, 50% of 220 Calories and 33% of 330 Calories yield an identical number of calories coming from fat - 110 Calories.

So I really am skeptical that there is any point in exercising for fat loss in the "fat burning" zone.  If you exercise at a higher intensity, you'll burn more calories, and won't burn less fat.  I think it's only when you go hard (above LT2, or 80% MHR in my case) that you are switching off fat burning.

[border-rider]

Sure, except that the higher work levels are not primarily fat-burning.   They may be burning fat but they're mostly ripping though glycogen, which makes:  

a) them unsustainable for long or very often, and
b) you very hungry.  

You're also not training yourself to burn fat primarily

If you're limited to a 30 min workout then of course it makes sense to work harder to any benefit from it; if your interest is in mobilising and using fat stores, though, then you're better training at the lower intensity for two or three times as long.  Hence my comment about intervals not being an especially ace way to burn fat.

I reckon my optimal fat-burning range is about 65-75% of my max HR BTW; I did 6 hours at that yesterday, and when I'm trained i can ride a 200 in that range and not eat.

If I'm doing  a hard run (say a 10 k), or intervals on the TT, I'll be up at 85% + of max HR

[inc]

I want to start training with intervals on my turbo, as long turbo sessions don't really appeal to me.

I'd like to achieve two things.

1. Fat burning.
2. Improve my maximum power.

It could depend on what  you mean by "Improve my maximum power"  If you mean to ride faster for longer then long intervals around your AT ( Google will give lots of ways to find this) would give the best return for your turbo time. The fat burning is sadly hardly worth considering for the relatively low duration of turbo riding. Everyone is different and to ride hard on a turbo requires a lot of motivation, more than most people have which is a pity as quality turbo time will definitely  give results. What I found worked for me was a shortish session based on a 10mile time trial. I used to do this on a Cateye cyclosimulator which gives a lot of useful data and along with my HRM meant I could measure load, time, distance, and hr but more importantly improvement. I used to warmup for 10 minutes then do 10 miles at a load I could maintain for the full distance ( it takes a few attempts to get this right) followed by a 5 min warmdown. I found the time-hr-speed equated quite well between the turbo and the road. As you get fitter the load and speed increase for the same hr.

[hulver]

Optimal fat burning needs long, steady work.  Endless hours at HRs of 120-140...not what I'd fancy doing on a turbo.

No, my neither. I use long rides for that, much more interesting.

What I was after was using short intense exercise periods to increase metabolism. I've read in a few places that using intense intervals will boost weight loss long after the training period has finished. I wondered if anybody had any experience of that working.

Primarily though I want to keep my turbo sessions to about an hour, so was wondering which sort of intervals and at what heart rate ranges would work best for improving sprinting power.

[hulver]

I want to start training with intervals on my turbo, as long turbo sessions don't really appeal to me.

I'd like to achieve two things.

1. Fat burning.
2. Improve my maximum power.

It could depend on what  you mean by "Improve my maximum power"  If you mean to ride faster for longer then long intervals around your AT ( Google will give lots of ways to find this) would give the best return for your turbo time. The fat burning is sadly hardly worth considering for the relatively low duration of turbo riding. Everyone is different and to ride hard on a turbo requires a lot of motivation, more than most people have which is a pity as quality turbo time will definitely  give results. What I found worked for me was a shortish session based on a 10mile time trial. I used to do this on a Cateye cyclosimulator which gives a lot of useful data and along with my HRM meant I could measure load, time, distance, and hr but more importantly improvement. I used to warmup for 10 minutes then do 10 miles at a load I could maintain for the full distance ( it takes a few attempts to get this right) followed by a 5 min warmdown. I found the time-hr-speed equated quite well between the turbo and the road. As you get fitter the load and speed increase for the same hr.

Riding faster for longer was my goal. Primarily to help with hill climbing. Being able to maintain bursts of power to climb a hill for longer than I can at the moment (which isn't very long at all, I run out of steam very quickly).

As I'm starting out on this intervals lark, I was considering doing the following.

10 minutes warm up at 60-70% hr max.

1 minute at 90-95% hr max.
3 minutes calm down at 60%

Repeat 5 times, so the total time at 90-95% hr max would be 5 minutes.

10 - 15 minutes cool off at 50-60% hr max.

Do this a couple of times a week, and gradually start increasing the period at 90-95% hr max.

Would this help me increase meet my goal, or am I wasting my time and something else would be better?

[simonp]

90-95% is more of a VO2max zone and you might want to look at inc's idea of training at AT which is 
more like 80% max. This kind of training will increase your ability to go harder for longer. VO2max correlates well with time trial performance but is less important for longer distances. You will also benefit from long steady aerobic base work. I've used 2x20 at 80% or so as well as 5x5.  But don't overuse intervals. 

[mattc]

What I was after was using short intense exercise periods to increase metabolism. I've read in a few places that using intense intervals will boost weight loss long after the training period has finished. I wondered if anybody had any experience of that working.

Weights work has this effect - or at least many many reputable-sounding sources say so! If you have a short time available, weights might be a good thing, maybe once-twice a week.

To burn fat you're better off walking to the shops than doing sprints.

[inc]

As I'm starting out on this intervals lark, I was considering doing the following.
10 minutes warm up at 60-70% hr max.

1 minute at 90-95% hr max.
3 minutes calm down at 60%

Repeat 5 times, so the total time at 90-95% hr max would be 5 minutes.

10 - 15 minutes cool off at 50-60% hr max.

Do this a couple of times a week, and gradually start increasing the period at 90-95% hr max.

There are dozens of books on interval training but for me the KISS principal works best so that's why I did basically one interval. I found remembering what I was doing, was I on set 3 or 4 etc  when hot tired with an overwhelming desire to stop was overcomplicating what is a simple process of overload and adaptation. You could change what I did and break the ten miles into 5x2 miles or 10x1 mile but for me that mucks up the distance on the trip meter. I found it quite motivating getting faster as I got fitter. A lot of people have good intentions devising a turbo interval session but usually make them either too hard, too long or not hard or long enough so they are either wrecked after a couple of sessions and give up or are not going hard enough like watching tv or reading so are wasting their time. Finding what works for you is what matters if you have your pulse around AT for most of your session you will be improving. I don't think riding a turbo will directly help your climbing but the increased fitness will allow you to work at improving your climbing on the hills

[MSeries]

Ride up hills + lose weight to improve climbing.

[David Martin]

I find playing music helps. Intervals are either intense riding for a track (why do they always want to repeat the last bit several times...) or very intense for short periods - depending on the track and how I am feeling.

No idea what my LT is. I suppose I could get it measured at the local sports biomedicine unit..

But as Martin (Mseries) says, they way to go better up hills is to go up hills as hard as you sustainably can, and lose weight.

the former is easier than the latter, usually.

[simonp]

No idea what my LT is. I suppose I could get it measured at the local sports biomedicine unit..

That's what I did.  Gives me a better idea of whether I'm exercising at the right intensity when training.

[mattc]

No idea what my LT is. I suppose I could get it measured at the local sports biomedicine unit..

That's what I did.  Gives me a better idea of whether I'm exercising at the right intensity when training.

You'll get bloody close by using:
biggest effort level you can sustain for 25mins and then collapse.

[amaferanga]

Some more useful information here.

Something like 2 x 20 min at around your LT HR (about 85% MHR) would be a good start.  You can do the same session on the road by doing hill repeats up a long, steady climb.

Shorter intervals using HR as the basis of determining your effort are difficult since your HR will always lag behind the effort/power you're developing.  The shorter the interval the more meaningless HR becomes (surely it takes at least 1 min to get from 60% to 90-95% MHR?).

There's lots of very useful information on the Training section on the Bikeradar forum.  A quick search there should give you loads of ideas.

[mattc]

Shorter intervals using HR as the basis of determining your effort are difficult since your HR will always lag behind the effort/power you're developing.  The shorter the interval the more meaningless HR becomes (surely it takes at least 1 min to get from 60% to 90-95% MHR?).

You don't have a Powertap for sale, do you ... ?

[scherrit]

2 by 20's are the way the truth and the light for enduro athletes....

Only problem is they are fairly boring to do on a turbo, so do other stuff to keep the old brainium alive....
S.

[simonp]

Watching the telly, listening to loud music, solving differential equations in your head, that kinda thing?

[Chris S]

Watching the telly, listening to loud music, solving differential equations in your head, that kinda thing?

Yes! I watched tennis on Saturday whilst on the turbo,  and an hour flew by. However - a 2x20 does take more concentration than just tempo.

[simonp]

I often design software when on the bike.  But as you say when doing turbo sessions it's harder to zone out in the way that allows background problem solving.

[gonzo]

No idea what my LT is. I suppose I could get it measured at the local sports biomedicine unit..

That's what I did.  Gives me a better idea of whether I'm exercising at the right intensity when training.

You'll get bloody close by using:
biggest effort level you can sustain for 25mins and then collapse.

Essentially, it's your 10 mile TT average HR (if it's fairly constant).

[David Martin]

Essentially, it's your 10 mile TT average HR (if it's fairly constant).

Hmm.. Mine tends to start at around 130 (ie at the G of the "GO") peaks rapidly to 170ish from the starting effort then settles to 160-165, gradually rising to about 175 by 8 miles at which point I light the metaphoric afterburners to try to stop the speed dropping too much and it then hits 180+.

At least that was what it did last time I was using an HRM during the TT.

I now go by feel. If it doesn't hurt, you aren't trying hard enough. If it does hurt, you aren't trying hard enough. If you are getting tunnel vision with more than 1/2 mile to go then you are probably pushing it a teensy bit too hard.

..d

[simonp]

I didn't really feel that pushed during my LT threshold test.  I went in 3 minute, 25W steps from 100 to 275W and it was feeling mildly difficult at 275W.  The 225W level was 155bpm (with an HRmax of 192bpm seen at the end of the VO2max test).

When I've done time trials I've sat in the 170s once I've got going.  Mind you I've not done one in about 18 months and I am pretty sure I am much stronger now.

I really should rock up to the time trials this year, to see if I really have improved, but Cambridge CC's clash with swimming club, so I'll have to do Team Cambridge Wednesday night ones if I don't want to miss out on swimming.

[mattc]

...
Mind you I've not done one in about 18 months and I am pretty sure I am much stronger now.

I really should rock up to the time trials this year, to see if I really have improved,

Well I have to say, you do a heck of a lot of scientific training and analysis for someone that never rides competitive events ...


p.s. "rock up" - what does that look like? Will you have a light show? Backing singers?