training schedule for speed/power

[teethgrinder]

Anyone have any reccommendations?

Just a list of what to do, such as, Day 1, intervals for x minutes at y%mhr, Day 2, n sprints. That sort of thing.

Turbo or road will do. Preferably no more than an hour a day at high intensity, I still want to do some miles too.

I'm getting cheesed off being below par and want to get in better shape for 2011.

[giropaul]

In my opinion speed and power are not the same. True, more power can equal more speed, but speed itself is something a bit different.

The first question is this. Do you want more speed for longer, or just more top end (a la Mr Hoy)? I'm guessing, with your reputation (I hope I've got it right) you aren't going for 200 metre times?

Overall, I reckon you get faster by going faster. Long steady miles detract from speed. Most racing is only eyeballs out for a limited time, so shorter, more intense may be the way to go.

I think you ride tests - is that so? In that case, lots of fast as you can 10s.

Training, keep the gear dowwn and pedal fast. Ideally go out behind a moter bike, but I guess that's a bit extreme for most. A good fast chain gang works nearly as well.

Things like longer time trials, in my view, kill speed, so I personally would avoid if I was after speed.

If what you mean is that you want to go faster in long time trials, then I would suggest breaking the distance down, and doing  a very fast 5 miles in training, then 10 miles, etc. I think a certain Mick Potts told me that one.

Just some ideas, but I guess we need to identify exactly what you want when you refer to power and/or speed.

[mattc]

Just a list of what to do, such as, Day 1, intervals for x minutes at y%mhr, Day 2, n sprints. That sort of thing.

Turbo or road will do. Preferably no more than an hour a day at high intensity, I still want to do some miles too.

you may not be able to do things the "conventional" way as your longer rides will break up the schedule - no point doing hard intervals when you are still tired from a 600.

(but I also agree with paul - define what you want  first).

[teethgrinder]

The first question is this. Do you want more speed for longer, or just more top end (a la Mr Hoy)? I'm guessing, with your reputation (I hope I've got it right) you aren't going for 200 metre times?

More speed for longer (or perhaps as long as I ride now) Cycling for days and nights at a time isn't a big deal for me. It's just that I'm not as fast as I'd like to be. I think that most people riding a 24 hour worry about keeping going for 24 hours where I worry about going fast.
But all round fitness would be good.

Overall, I reckon you get faster by going faster. Long steady miles detract from speed. Most racing is only eyeballs out for a limited time, so shorter, more intense may be the way to go.

Yes, I used to race on a velodrome before I really started long distance cycling. I'm much, much stronger now than I was then, so can do a long ride faster than I could, but my speed is very low compared to what it was. If there was a local velodrome, I'd go there.

I think you ride tests - is that so? In that case, lots of fast as you can 10s.

I ride 24 hour TTs and Audax. All steady miles. I think I need to build up to be able to ride a good 10 and maintain the high intensity for the whole ride. I rode a few 10s this year and the fastest was 26.50. My PB from 1993 is 22.54. I wouldn't mind beating that without using tri bars, as I never had tri bars whenI got my PB. I'd also like to go under the hour for a 25 sans tri bars. My PB for a 25 is 1.03.

Training, keep the gear dowwn and pedal fast. Ideally go out behind a moter bike, but I guess that's a bit extreme for most. A good fast chain gang works nearly as well.

That's good speed training. The other trick is to spin as fast as you can in a lowish gear downhill, but you dohave to keep re-climbing hills to do that so you can't rattle off intervals with short rests.

Things like longer time trials, in my view, kill speed, so I personally would avoid if I was after speed.

Yes, all those years of steady miles have killed off my speed.

Just some ideas, but I guess we need to identify exactly what you want when you refer to power and/or speed.

I was hoping for a schedule to do both.

you may not be able to do things the "conventional" way as your longer rides will break up the schedule - no point doing hard intervals when you are still tired from a 600.

(but I also agree with paul - define what you want  first).

I don't like to do things the conventional way if I can get away with it. I won't be riding a 600 every week, so if I am tired from a 600, I can always take a break from the other stuff. I think that continuing to ride the odd long ride will do more good than harm. Most weekends, I don't intend to do more than 250 miles total and only as an easy pace, just to keep the miles ticking over.
I noted that John Warnock bumped up his mileage as preperation for his excellent 24 hour ride this year. He allready had what it took to ride fast enough. I've seen him get very cose to what he did this year before, but he always ran out of go at the end of the ride. This year he was stronger than anyone I've ever seen on a 24 hour finish circuit except possibly Lynne Taylor and Wilco, who were also known for doing the miles.
I know that I've got shedloads of miles and can keep going for a very long time as long as I don't overstretch myself. It's just that I don't go all that fast. Where John Warnock was fast enough and lacked the miles, I have enough miles, but am not fast enough.

[simonp]

VO2max is largely irrelevant for this.  As a starting point, I'd be looking at intervals targeting lactate threshold so 2x20 or 3x15 at LTP.

For aerobic base, I was told ideally these rides should be upper end of easy/lower end of endurance for at least 3h.

[Aidan]

I have a copy of the Time Crunched cyclist   which has a training plan that sounds like what you want

The Time-crunched Cyclist: Fit, Fast and Powerful in 6 Hours a Week: Amazon.co.uk: Chris Carmichael, Jim Rutberg: Books


You can borrow it if you like. No rush at all to return it

[teethgrinder]

VO2max is largely irrelevant for this.

 

Sounds logical. I wont be breathing hard on a 24 hour, or ifI do, I won't be keeping it up for very long.

As a starting point, I'd be looking at intervals targeting lactate threshold

Acid bath training?

so 2x20 or 3x15 at LTP.

2 sets of 20 minutes at lactic threshold or as much lactic as I can handle?
 

For aerobic base, I was told ideally these rides should be upper end of easy/lower end of endurance for at least 3h.

That may be ideal, but I'd be pushed to do a 3 hour ride every day when I have to go to work too.
A former 24 hour record holder only used to ride for around 2 hours a day. Two 25 mile rides at full tilt.

I have a copy of the Time Crunched cyclist   which has a training plan that sounds like what you want

The Time-crunched Cyclist: Fit, Fast and Powerful in 6 Hours a Week: Amazon.co.uk: Chris Carmichael, Jim Rutberg: Books


You can borrow it if you like. No rush at all to return it

That looks like a good book. I might just go and buy one. Thanks.

[simonp]

VO2max is largely irrelevant for this.

 

Sounds logical. I wont be breathing hard on a 24 hour, or ifI do, I won't be keeping it up for very long.

As a starting point, I'd be looking at intervals targeting lactate threshold

Acid bath training?

so 2x20 or 3x15 at LTP.

2 sets of 20 minutes at lactic threshold or as much lactic as I can handle?
 

For aerobic base, I was told ideally these rides should be upper end of easy/lower end of endurance for at least 3h.

That may be ideal, but I'd be pushed to do a 3 hour ride every day when I have to go to work too.
A former 24 hour record holder only used to ride for around 2 hours a day. Two 25 mile rides at full tilt.

I have a copy of the Time Crunched cyclist   which has a training plan that sounds like what you want

The Time-crunched Cyclist: Fit, Fast and Powerful in 6 Hours a Week: Amazon.co.uk: Chris Carmichael, Jim Rutberg: Books


You can borrow it if you like. No rush at all to return it

That looks like a good book. I might just go and buy one. Thanks.

LTP = Laxtate Threshold Power.

[mattc]

You probably need to decide whether you're going to use any/all of:
- HRM
- power-meter
- more than 1 gear.

These will all have a big effect on how you actually implement any schedule.
(I'm guessing the answer to all 3 is well-known, but I thought I'd ask anyway ... )

I rode a few 10s this year and the fastest was 26.50. My PB from 1993 is 22.54. I wouldn't mind beating that without using tri bars, as I never had tri bars whenI got my PB. I'd also like to go under the hour for a 25 sans tri bars. My PB for a 25 is 1.03.

Wow - 22.54 without tri-bars. That's really rather good.
You should get much faster than 26.50 with speed training. At your age, and assuming you were very fit for that 22.54, you'll struggle to beat it - but it will be a worthy struggle! 
(We need more data, but if i was a betting man, I'd say you'll do around 23.20ish).

I must look up 10mile PBs for the various quick 24hr riders. (I know Wilko is extremely quick at all distances, but not Wiggins-quick.) Then we can set you a nice challenging target 

[teethgrinder]

You probably need to decide whether you're going to use any/all of:
- HRM
- power-meter
- more than 1 gear.

I have a HRM, assuming I can get the dam thing working again, but they're pretty cheap anyway.
Power meters are too dear for me.
I can use gears. I have 3 geared bikes running now and only 2 fixers. One of the fixers is only (fit for) popping up to town and back.

Wow - 22.54 without tri-bars. That's really rather good.
You should get much faster than 26.50 with speed training. At your age, and assuming you were very fit for that 22.54, you'll struggle to beat it - but it will be a worthy struggle! 

Ironically, that ride was the result of a long ride. I was riding club 10s regularly in those days. My PB was a long 24. Then I rode the 1993 LEL, which I failed. But it really strengthened up my legs. I had some speed in those days from the TTs. A day or two after I got home from my failed LEL, I got a new PB with a short 24, taking about half a minute off my previous PB. Everyone else on the day was about a minute down on their PB because it was a bad evening. The following week I rode the club 10. I even remember telling the timekeeper that he'd given me the wrong time when I saw that I'd done a long 22 and asked him to check. I still wasn't the fastest though. There were even faster riders than me who weren't using tri bars.
Getting under the hour for a 25 is what I'm mostly aiming for, but a PB for 10 miles is another thing to go for. I only managed about 1.06 on a fast 25 mile TT course this year, but I know that I'm much less fit than usual and I could beat that by just getting the miles in.

I must look up 10mile PBs for the various quick 24hr riders. (I know Wilko is extremely quick at all distances, but not Wiggins-quick.) Then we can set you a nice challenging target 

Wilko seems to be be at his best after 50 miles. I reckon there are a good few top level riders who could beat Wilko in anything up to 50 miles and a few might challenge him at 100 miles. 12 hours and beyond, I think he's pretty much unbeatable when he's on top form. But for sure, Wilko could still kick ass on a 10.

[vorsprung]

Here is a link to the plan that Pete Penseyres used before he broke the RAAM record

Ultra Cycling:  Intensity Training

He had decided that speed was the thing to train for, not endurance which he already had plenty of

[mattc]

I've been a bit reluctant to dive in here, because I suspect you'll be racing on fixed, and I don't know the best way to train for that. So I'll type some stuff about riding with gears anyway! I'll avoid all the jargon about thresholds.* If you want to use HR to define training levels, you'll need to estimate your HRmax reasonably well - see other threads on this forum.

My approach is to ride the longer events I fancy, then do training rides inbetween to a formula that is nice and simple. These will be 3 types (for me, with HRMax 180):
Intervals 2x20min - warmup first, then ride the hard bits at the effort (HR ideally) that you can sustain on your 60min TT (so roughly your 25mile level, 160-165 for me). . Rest for 5-10mins in between, decide by feel.
Recovery rides - at very low effort (for me this is ~110-120bpm), nice low gears
Tempo training** - roughly at an effort you would ride your 24h (for me around 130-140bpm).

When to do these?
Interval; do these when you're not tired, upto 3 a week, with at least a day's rest in between. Should be at most 30% of your mileage.
Recovery - only needed when you are tired e.g. after races or long rides (for you that's maybe AAA200k or 300k+, you decide).
Tempo: all the rest of your training.

One could fine-tune ad infinitum, but I don't see any point if you are riding (say) 1 long Audax or more every month or more, and the above is really easy to use each time you get on the bike.

Note that the slower rides are a bit dull, cos you should avoid straying from that ideal HR range. Such is life. Also, expect the HR-bands to move up-and-down a bit as you get more/less fit.

The usual stuff about watching for over-training, taper properly for big days etc etc ...

*cos I always get the jargon and definitions wrong!
** You will note there is a big gap in effort between the intervals and the tempo rides - this is important!

[gonzo]

During the racing season, ride your local evening 10s every week. Trained for my 1st 12 hour by riding distance and the second by riding 10s. Went further second time around when I was far less fit.

[teethgrinder]

During the racing season, ride your local evening 10s every week. Trained for my 1st 12 hour by riding distance and the second by riding 10s. Went further second time around when I was far less fit.

That was my plan for this year. In the early season it meant faffing around with fettling to get it ready for evening timt trials, so I ended up not riding any. So I bought myself a Specialized Allez so that I always had a bike ready to race on. Even then, when I get home from work, I'm usualy hungry, so with all the faffing about and having to ride to the start, it cuts things fine. I did manage about 3 evening 10s, but I need more than that to get faster.
I'd definitle y ride more if I was faster as I'd probably be more keen to ride them. Where there's a will, there's a way. It's mostly in my head. Cycling fast is much more fun when you're fitter.
My best 12 hour (244 miles) was 2 weeks after riding the 1200km Paris Brest Paris in 1995. Before that I was a much more regular TTer, but never rode so many miles. I usualy do about 230 in a 12 these days, the difference being that it's usualy not long after something much longer and I'm usualy a bit tired before I even start.

[oddballdave]

From a lot of reading around....

In essence.

Decide the speed you want to ride at.

Work as hard as you need to travel at that speed, for ANY distance.

rest,

repeat.

Gradually increase the distance you can manage.
You will eventually arrive at the distance you want at the speed you want.

As an example...
Therefore to ride a 100 in four hours (or less) you need to travel at 25mph.
If I can manage that speed for about ten miles, therefore that is the speed and distance I should be working at.
I should get 'fitter' and more 'powerful' and should be able to increase the distance, session by session.

The theory...
This will educate my twitching muscles that this is how hard they must work. My body will adapt to the levels of lactate, oxygen and glycogen.

One of the cycling weeklies recently suggested a club '10' raced weekly gives a benchmark as well as a decent session, a weekly fast chain gang and several short (30 minute) high intensity sessions would give all the training required. The emphasis is on high intensity, putting everything in so that your body adapts.

YMMV
Dave
who uses the 30 minute (downhill) commute to work for elements of style and the 40 minutes (more uphill)  commute home for the power/muscle adaption session.
And is consequently travelling further and faster.

[Alouicious]

I read up about Functional Threshold Power.
It is suggested that an all-out effort for 20 minutes would equate to 60 minutes at 0.95 of the 20 minute effort.
Taking this further for longer duration rides, reducing sustainable power by 5% for every 40 minutes of riding seems to ring close to what I can achieve.

For example, I get a normalised Wattage of 247W over 20 minutes, which is 235W over 60 minutes, which happens to be 174W over 300 minutes and 118W over 620 minutes.

250W on my bike is 21 mph, which sound sensible to me for a 20 minute blast.
235W is 20.5 mph. I reckon that’s possible in a velodrome.
174W is a good cruise at 18 mph. For five hours would be a push, which is what the theory says.
118W is 15.5 mph, which is a moving average for me on a 200 km for 10 hours 20 mins.

So if I’ve got the gist correct, if I can put up >250W on a turbo or gym bike for 20 minutes, I can ride a 200km Audax successfully.

All I need to do is follow advice from TTers to increase my Functional Threshold Power and I can be confident of finishing a Long Steady Ride.

[simonp]

ISTM that power does not continue to drop asymtotically to zero in that way.

My best-ever 20 minute NP was 250W. My best 2h power is 200W and my best NP on a 200 would be around 180W.  This does not account for breaks which reduce the total average if you included them.

I completed my first 200 when I was much less fit than this. The thing is there is a power level that you can maintain pretty much indefinitely and for me that's plenty fast enough for a 200, perhaps excluding hilly events. I reckon for me this is around the 150W mark.

[Euan Uzami]

YMMv but consider (more) mountain biking. Couple of laps of coed y brenin or dalby or the like is very different fitness wise both in terms of cardio and muscle use than an equivalent length road ride. It's more interval-like, I find. (Other benefits are that it uses more of the minor supporting muscles aswell as the major ones, and it exercises the upper body more, but these may be fringe benefits not entirely aligned with your current goal).
Besides, when you get back on your road bike it will definitely seem like you're going faster, even if you're not 

[teethgrinder]

I've read about half of Time Crunched Cyclist now.
Reading it has shown me that it's not really what I'm after, but has been a big help in itself so far. I think I've learned from it what I might be after and has probably pointed me to another book The Ride of your Life.
Time Crunched is more for short lasting (up to 3 hours) high intensity efforts. Not really for me. But has explained a bit what I would need to do to keep my speed up for longer and an insight to how to do it, so even if it's not exactly right, it's still a big help.

YMMv but consider (more) mountain biking. Couple of laps of coed y brenin or dalby or the like is very different fitness wise both in terms of cardio and muscle use than an equivalent length road ride. It's more interval-like, I find. (Other benefits are that it uses more of the minor supporting muscles aswell as the major ones, and it exercises the upper body more, but these may be fringe benefits not entirely aligned with your current goal).
Besides, when you get back on your road bike it will definitely seem like you're going faster, even if you're not 

I intend to use my mountain bike a lot. I often get out of breath when on the mountain bike, but am usualy having too much fun to reallynotice it.
I think it is teaching me to use my core muscles better too and I know that I can translate my mountain biking style onto my fixed wheel bike very well. Pulling the mountain bike handlebars feels very similar to pulling my tri bars.
Plus, the mountain bike, especially off road and with panniers, grinds to a hault very quickly if you stop pedalling. If I ease right off on the fixed, it can roll a fair way. The mountain bike can be a beast to keep moving and it certainly does do me a lot of good. I smashed my PB for a 24 when I took voluntary redundancy and spent a few months camping and off roading in Wales.
I don't think it matches hulking a big gear or riding hilly rides on fixed for hundreds of miles for building strength and even upper body strength though.