Further and Faster in plain English (training for dummies?!)

[Alouicious]

Further and Faster in plain Jedi

"No! Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try."

[simonp]

The why of interval training:

 - you want to train at level X for Y minutes
 - if you try to ride at level X for Y minutes you will blow up
 - if you ride at level X for Y/3 (or some other divisor) then repeat x 3 you get the correct effort level and physiological effect, for the target amount of time, without the blowing up

 (Assuming as Greenbank points out above that you set the level correctly).  So for instance on my first attempt at 2x20 I set the effort too high and you can see that I was dropping my effort level as I started to suffer in the second set.  When fitter, I was able to maintain a higher effort than the original 2x20 that I'd failed to maintain - so you can see your improvement.

Your 3h weekend ride is a good thing to, this is presumably base training?  I was told ideally base training rides should be at least 3h, so you're on the right track there.

[simonp]

Good article about vo2max intervals here and why you need to get the level right.

VO2max Intervals

[Alouicious]

The why of interval training:

 - you want to train at level X for Y minutes
 - if you try to ride at level X for Y minutes you will blow up
 - if you ride at level X for Y/3 (or some other divisor) then repeat x 3 you get the correct effort level and physiological effect, for the target amount of time, without the blowing up

 (Assuming as Greenbank points out above that you set the level correctly).  So for instance on my first attempt at 2x20 I set the effort too high and you can see that I was dropping my effort level as I started to suffer in the second set.  When fitter, I was able to maintain a higher effort than the original 2x20 that I'd failed to maintain - so you can see your improvement.

Your 3h weekend ride is a good thing to, this is presumably base training?  I was told ideally base training rides should be at least 3h, so you're on the right track there.

You are planning a ride or have received the routesheet. On the ride there is a 10% hill which is 1 mile long. You know you can climb a 10% at 6mph, but do not know whether you can keep this up for the 1 mile climb. You know from web calculators that it is 300W to climb a 10% at 6mph.
300W for 10 minutes is the MINIMUM you MUST train to for this ride.

The 300W for 10 minutes will be ONE interval within an hour's session.

Then you will have the confidence to complete the ride.

[amaferanga]

The why of interval training:

 - you want to train at level X for Y minutes
 - if you try to ride at level X for Y minutes you will blow up
 - if you ride at level X for Y/3 (or some other divisor) then repeat x 3 you get the correct effort level and physiological effect, for the target amount of time, without the blowing up

 (Assuming as Greenbank points out above that you set the level correctly).  So for instance on my first attempt at 2x20 I set the effort too high and you can see that I was dropping my effort level as I started to suffer in the second set.  When fitter, I was able to maintain a higher effort than the original 2x20 that I'd failed to maintain - so you can see your improvement.

Your 3h weekend ride is a good thing to, this is presumably base training?  I was told ideally base training rides should be at least 3h, so you're on the right track there.

You are planning a ride or have received the routesheet. On the ride there is a 10% hill which is 1 mile long. You know you can climb a 10% at 6mph, but do not know whether you can keep this up for the 1 mile climb. You know from web calculators that it is 300W to climb a 10% at 6mph.
300W for 10 minutes is the MINIMUM you MUST train to for this ride.

The 300W for 10 minutes will be ONE interval within an hour's session.

Then you will have the confidence to complete the ride.

Why can't you just climb the hill a bit slower at a lower wattage? 

I'd also strongly disagree that you would need to train at a minimum of 300W for 10 minutes to improve your speed up the climb.  Why not 290W or 280W?  I know that if I ride a lot at around 20-30W below my threshold then my threshold power will increase.

Anyway, this is supposed to be training for dummies so there's no call for overcomplicating things....

[jogler]

This is moving away from a "dummies" type debate

[vorsprung]

Good article about vo2max intervals here and why you need to get the level right.

VO2max Intervals

Ok, for the "made simple" approach you do not need to know your VO₂ max, your FTP, your lactate threshold.

The above linked article is great ( and the flammerouge.je site is well worth reading ) but the reason that sports scientists and trainers are always coming up with these special numbers like VO₂ max is that they provide a way to train in a very efficient way.  They give more gains per hour spent training.

As Mr Nesbitt points out

Just hang on to faster wheels for as long as you can.


ride lots


ride hills lots


The above worked for me

Of course this approach works.  It is just not quite as efficient.  It takes a bit longer.  More riding is required for the same result.  If you enjoy riding and are not planning to break any world records then this is probably ok.  We are riding for fun, remember?

I take a similar approach to Mr Nesbitt ( see my previous reply above )  I do have a "magic number" but it is particular to me and my own riding.  It is the time I take to get up a particular hill on the way to work, if I go all out.  This helps me assess if i am getting faster ( at going uphill )

If I had a power meter and my own coach I might do things differently but really I don't see the need

(simonp enjoys his power meter so it's a good thing for him)

[Alouicious]

I DO ride up hills slower. My bike has super low gearing.

Those who go out on 200km AUK with a 34 x 28 lowest ( rediculously high for Audax ) gear HAVE to generate the power to keep the bike moving, or else they will be pedaling at less than 60 rpm.

[vorsprung]

Why can't you just climb the hill a bit slower at a lower wattage? 

The OP is asking for a plain English explanation of how he can go further and FASTER. Now you're suggesting going SLOWER  

It's called pacing

[simonp]

The op mentions audax.  So we're talking about rides of up to 600km.  300W gets me up a 25% hill.  I would not ride up a 10% hill at that kind of power on a very long ride, because it would tire me out too quickly, even if I could do it.

[mattc]

I would not ride up a 10% hill at that kind of power on a very long ride, because it would tire me out too quickly, even if I could do it.

Yes you would 

[simonp]

I would not ride up a 10% hill at that kind of power on a very long ride, because it would tire me out too quickly, even if I could do it.

Yes you would 

Only if someone's watching. 

[Greenbank]

I DO ride up hills slower. My bike has super low gearing.

Those who go out on 200km AUK with a 34 x 28 lowest ( rediculously high for Audax ) gear HAVE to generate the power to keep the bike moving, or else they will be pedaling at less than 60 rpm.

There's nothing wrong with that, every fixed rider will be used to low cadences. That's the fun of riding Audaxes like the Bryan Chapman Memorial on a 67.4" fixed. 5mph = 25rpm cadence.

[Chris N]

That's about the point where I contemplate getting off and walking.  It's normally faster.

[jogler]

25rpm is close to whisky-revs* for me.

*falling down rpm

[vorsprung]

Incidentally it is now only 10 weeks until The Elenith

So it's time for me to start doing painfully faster riding on the way to work

[GrahamG]

Incidentally it is now only 10 weeks until The Elenith

So it's time for me to start doing painfully faster riding on the way to work

You're the second person who's mentioned the Elenith as a bit of an early season fitness benchmark (i.e. 'need to get for'). I'll be there too so will be sure to introduce myself.

Now we're in February, following three months of (mostly) solid base work, it's about time I worked on speed. Also signed up for my first race (WTTA Hardriders) at the beginning of March.

[Alouicious]

Incidentally it is now only 10 weeks until The Elenith

So it's time for me to start doing painfully faster riding on the way to work

You're the second person who's mentioned the Elenith as a bit of an early season fitness benchmark (i.e. 'need to get for'). I'll be there too so will be sure to introduce myself.

Now we're in February, following three months of (mostly) solid base work, it's about time I worked on speed. Also signed up for my first race (WTTA Hardriders) at the beginning of March.

"Speed" is not possible without Power. Nor is climbing hills. 

[mattc]

He might be buying lighter or more aero parts  (or losing weight).

</pedant>

[Greenbank]

"Speed" is not possible without Power. Nor is climbing hills. 

Yes it's all related to power, but speed and power are different ends of the workout spectrum.

I can push out >1000W for 5 seconds at the moment, upping that to 2000W for 5 seconds isn't going to be much use on any Audax (except maybe the London Sightseer). Nor would being able to push out >1000W for 10 seconds.

For speed it's about endurance. It's about being able to maintain a certain power output for longer, and/or being able to push a bit harder than before for a similar period of time.

[GrahamG]

I should've said "fings wot all contribute to goin fasta" 

[Alouicious]

Pump out 2 kW for five seconds and you're probably Phosphocreatine.
Put out 1 kW for 10 seconds and you're probably Lactic.
Put out 200 W for an hour and you're probably aerobic.
Plod out 100 W for ten hours and you're not even trying.

Which of these is applicable to Audax?

[amaferanga]

Pump out 2 kW for five seconds and you're probably Phosphocreatine.
Put out 1 kW for 10 seconds and you're probably Lactic.
Put out 200 W for an hour and you're probably aerobic.
Plod out 100 W for ten hours and you're not even trying.

Which of these is applicable to Audax?

What's your point? 

Did you get banned from bikeradar then Chiggy?

[richie]

Pump out 2 kW for five seconds and you're probably Phosphocreatine.
Put out 1 kW for 10 seconds and you're probably Lactic.
Put out 200 W for an hour and you're probably aerobic.
Plod out 100 W for ten hours and you're not even trying.

Which of these is applicable to Audax?

Shouldn't this go on the Audax board.
I for one would like to sit back and watch the fireworks...

[simonp]

100W might be enough to get round a 200k. I suspect you'd be pushing the time limits unless you were draughting a lot.  I typically average 150W+. I've also done 200W for 2h on an Audax so both the last two could be relevant.

The 2kW figure is well into elite cyclist territory and largely irrelevant. I hit about 1380W in a 6 sec power test. I have probably improved since then thru riding fixed, but I don't see it as a significant factor in Audax. 1000W for 10s is again irrelevant IMO. It's not a race, you don't need to break people on climbs and you don't need to outsprint them at the finish.