Author Topic: Strava  (Read 62044 times)

Trull

  • The settee will kill you
    • Aberdeen Astronomical Society
Re: Strava
« Reply #100 on: 18 May, 2013, 11:28:06 pm »
There's quite a lot of variation possible in the GPS location fixes as well, particularly between the phones and proper GPS like Garmins.

Re: Strava
« Reply #101 on: 19 May, 2013, 08:27:40 am »
Calculations still don't add up: the guy who put out the most power is probably the heaviest but not twice as heavy as me - the effect of weight should be linear - and the guy in the middle is about my weight I'd guess?

It won't be linear proportional to weight, the majority of the power created goes to overcoming aerodynamic drag which is (roughly) proportional to somewhere between the square and cube roots of the weight[1], but that's an approximation as it's related to the frontal area and drag coefficient which you can only estimate using rider weight/height.

1. That is (m=mass and CdA is effective drag area) CdA ~ m^x where 1/3 < x < 1/2

Shorter answer is that Strava's power calculator is, as you can see, highly flawed.

They claim their power figures will almost match those from a power meter but that ignores the fact that those rides where real power measurements are obtained:-
* One ride could have been into a headwind.
* Or a roaring tailwind
* One could have been part of a group ride with the rider buried in the group.
etc, etc.

Yet their algorithm which ignores wind and the like will magically get very close to the real numbers. Putting any differences down to transmission losses is just taking the piss.

The biggest variance in their formula looks to be the P(acceleration) component. So jittery GPS data will make the algorithm think the rider was accelerating and decelerating often and, therefore, requiring more power.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Strava
« Reply #102 on: 24 May, 2013, 12:37:16 pm »
I'm unconvinced by the VAM numbers too.

I know they only show for "categorised" climbs...but surely VAM can't be that different for other climbs?

My average VAM last saturday on the BCM 600 seems to have been just under 500 (pretty sh!t, I know)
Moving time for the 305km to Menai =14:50 hours   - including major bonk from me on the second leg, and Maggie feeling rough on the fourth leg.
Chepstow to Menai includes 3427m of height gain (per Strava - an underestimate if anything)  at just under 500/hour  say 7 hours worth of climbing
Which means "flat" speed of 305/7:50 = 39 kph

Now I know I rarely get to 39 kph on the flat with a tailwind.... let alone the headwind we had for some of last Saturday.
And yes the descents are lovely, but they really don't have that much of an effect on overal average speeds.

Somewhere something doesn't add up ?
 



TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Strava
« Reply #103 on: 24 May, 2013, 12:56:00 pm »
How far did you travel horizontally for each metre climbed? I bet it wasn't zero! At an average of, say, 5% gradient for those 3427m of climbing (and it's probably less), you travelled at least 68km horizontally. That gives around 10 kmh in the climbing phases, and around 30 kmh on the flat (which includes the downhill bits). If the average gradient was 3% (more likely, even if it peaked at 25% or more), the climbing phases represent around 114km of your ride, so you would have averaged 16kmh uphill and 24 kmh on the flat/downhill. Does that sound more reasonable?

Re: Strava
« Reply #104 on: 24 May, 2013, 01:29:03 pm »
How far did you travel horizontally for each metre climbed? I bet it wasn't zero!
Of course not.   But maybe I've mis-understood VAM?    I was using it to plug into a Naismith type formula where a time to gain y metres of height (irrespective of distance) is added to the time to cover x kms along the ground.

I've just done some googling to try and confirm my understanding of how VAM is calculated and it seems to be correct, although I also learned that the whole concept was invented by none other than Dr. Michele Ferrari.

Maybe plugging numbers invented by a 20th century Italian into a formula invented by a 19th century Scot is not good mathematical practice?   Or is it just my lack of "preparation"

At an average of, say, 5% gradient for those 3427m of climbing (and it's probably less), you travelled at least 68km horizontally. That gives around 10 kmh in the climbing phases, and around 30 kmh on the flat (which includes the downhill bits). If the average gradient was 3% (more likely, even if it peaked at 25% or more), the climbing phases represent around 114km of your ride, so you would have averaged 16kmh uphill and 24 kmh on the flat/downhill. Does that sound more reasonable?
Those numbers do indeed sound more reasonable.  I can see how you are getting the distances but I've not worked how you derive the speeds for uphill / flat for the different average gradients ?

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Strava
« Reply #105 on: 24 May, 2013, 01:54:03 pm »
the only thing i can draw conclusions from is when i compare current results with the past performance. by using the same website, same gps unit and same route i can be pretty sure that calculations are comparable (unlike calorie number on strava and ridewithgps.com, for example). for vam number, even the wind direction is not that relevant. i was pleased to find out this years vam on bcm was 662 compared to 512 last year - onwards and upwards! :D

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Strava
« Reply #106 on: 24 May, 2013, 02:11:52 pm »
How far did you travel horizontally for each metre climbed? I bet it wasn't zero!
Of course not.   But maybe I've mis-understood VAM?    I was using it to plug into a Naismith type formula where a time to gain y metres of height (irrespective of distance) is added to the time to cover x kms along the ground.

I've just done some googling to try and confirm my understanding of how VAM is calculated and it seems to be correct, although I also learned that the whole concept was invented by none other than Dr. Michele Ferrari.

Maybe plugging numbers invented by a 20th century Italian into a formula invented by a 19th century Scot is not good mathematical practice?   Or is it just my lack of "preparation"

At an average of, say, 5% gradient for those 3427m of climbing (and it's probably less), you travelled at least 68km horizontally. That gives around 10 kmh in the climbing phases, and around 30 kmh on the flat (which includes the downhill bits). If the average gradient was 3% (more likely, even if it peaked at 25% or more), the climbing phases represent around 114km of your ride, so you would have averaged 16kmh uphill and 24 kmh on the flat/downhill. Does that sound more reasonable?
Those numbers do indeed sound more reasonable.  I can see how you are getting the distances but I've not worked how you derive the speeds for uphill / flat for the different average gradients ?


I've no idea about the Naismith formula; I'm just using the data you gave. You climbed 3247m in ~7 hours of riding. If the average gradient was 3%, you must have ridden 114km horizontally in those 7 hours to achieve a total climbing figure of 3247m. Therefore your horizontal speed was 16kmh while your vertical speed was 460 metres climbed per hour. If you did 114km in those 7 hours, your remaining ride time of 7:50 covered the remaining 191 km, giving an average speed for the 'flat' of around 24 kmh. All numbers somewhat approximate, of course.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Strava
« Reply #107 on: 24 May, 2013, 02:31:10 pm »
Is it possible that one rider's figures were from a power meter while the other rider's figures were the Strava estimate?

I've often noticed that some people's power figures on Strava have a lightning flash symbol next to them and wondered if that might indicate that the figures come from an actual power meter.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Strava
« Reply #108 on: 24 May, 2013, 04:01:20 pm »
How far did you travel horizontally for each metre climbed? I bet it wasn't zero!
Of course not.   But maybe I've mis-understood VAM?    I was using it to plug into a Naismith type formula where a time to gain y metres of height (irrespective of distance) is added to the time to cover x kms along the ground.

I've just done some googling to try and confirm my understanding of how VAM is calculated and it seems to be correct, although I also learned that the whole concept was invented by none other than Dr. Michele Ferrari.

Maybe plugging numbers invented by a 20th century Italian into a formula invented by a 19th century Scot is not good mathematical practice?   Or is it just my lack of "preparation"

At an average of, say, 5% gradient for those 3427m of climbing (and it's probably less), you travelled at least 68km horizontally. That gives around 10 kmh in the climbing phases, and around 30 kmh on the flat (which includes the downhill bits). If the average gradient was 3% (more likely, even if it peaked at 25% or more), the climbing phases represent around 114km of your ride, so you would have averaged 16kmh uphill and 24 kmh on the flat/downhill. Does that sound more reasonable?
Those numbers do indeed sound more reasonable.  I can see how you are getting the distances but I've not worked how you derive the speeds for uphill / flat for the different average gradients ?


I've no idea about the Naismith formula; I'm just using the data you gave. You climbed 3247m in ~7 hours of riding. If the average gradient was 3%, you must have ridden 114km horizontally in those 7 hours to achieve a total climbing figure of 3247m. Therefore your horizontal speed was 16kmh while your vertical speed was 460 metres climbed per hour. If you did 114km in those 7 hours, your remaining ride time of 7:50 covered the remaining 191 km, giving an average speed for the 'flat' of around 24 kmh. All numbers somewhat approximate, of course.

Ah - I see where you are going with that now, thanks.

Naismith is a formula for hill walking:
20 minutes per mile plus 30 minutes for every 1000 ft of ascent in the original
12 minutes per km  plus 10 minutes for every 100 m ascent for the metric.
I've been trying to do something similar for working out timings on longer audaxes....

My understanding of VAM was that it is just the vertical component, irrespective of gradient.

However, looking again at the Strava VAMs - they are not pulling out just the vertical component, it's the vertical metres divided by the total time for the climb: horizontal & vertical component included.

I clearly need to re-think my calculation for future events if I'm going to use VAM

Re: Strava
« Reply #109 on: 23 January, 2014, 08:44:02 pm »
(waking thread)

I'm on Strava, but find their app (android) very unreliable, and can't trust it to be robust enough during a ride not to quit on me.  On both recent rides Stava app has stopped recording of it's own accord, once at the exact same place I took a photo on the phone.  MyTracks seems to be very reliable, and has not crashed on me yet (...)  So I just have to upload the gps file to Strava manually.  The segments thing is (IMO) interesting to compare my rides from one to another, but I'm not bothered about the league tables.  And, as for hills, I'm generally careful on steep sections, and speed up when the gradient is less severe (= bit of a whoos?) probably owing to a near-thing-shimmy event I once had.

Anyway, my ideal app would probably be the reliability of Mytracks, the offline maps/ability to follow & record gpx tracks of OsmAnd, and general useability of ridewithgps.   RidewithGPS beta app is available for testing via google+ atm.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Strava
« Reply #110 on: 24 January, 2014, 04:01:27 pm »
Thanks for that - I'm a great fan of RideWithGPS and hadn't realised that were working on an app. Good news  :thumbsup:
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Re: Strava
« Reply #111 on: 24 January, 2014, 08:59:04 pm »
Aye. I've joined the beta test. Will report back after the weekend's riding.

Re: Strava
« Reply #112 on: 03 April, 2014, 08:23:57 pm »
Just been trying the Strava app again recently.  Noticed tonight I got a 'PR', 28/689 on a short inclined segment, doing 35km/h with a notso light bike.   How did I manage that?  :)
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Strava
« Reply #113 on: 03 April, 2014, 09:32:02 pm »
Tailwind? ;D ;)

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: Strava
« Reply #114 on: 03 April, 2014, 09:34:30 pm »

Re: Strava
« Reply #115 on: 05 April, 2014, 11:10:20 am »
Tailwind? ;D ;)

 :)  I did manage 30km/h over 15km (week av. 28.8km/h) on the way back the other day, so 35km/h isn't too surprising, as this segment is not much of an incline, OK almost level really...   ;)  I did notice that the person in top spot was  hitting 50km/h.  Not really bothered with the short strava segments,  the longer ones 10km+ are more 'interesting', on a route that one does often.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Trull

  • The settee will kill you
    • Aberdeen Astronomical Society
Re: Strava
« Reply #116 on: 02 May, 2014, 10:35:28 am »
Yes in total agreement that longer segments are more interesting - there's a nice one on the road home called "Escape from Aberdoom" http://www.strava.com/activities/122667414/segments/2741445219 which includes a decent climb (Col du Devonick) and proper countryside with sheep and everything.... I'm about halfway up the leaderboard and look forward to bettering myself as I get fitter.

Re: Strava
« Reply #117 on: 04 June, 2014, 11:38:55 am »
Tried Veloviewer last night. It's a pretty good implementation of Strava data - personal heatmaps etc for free...

Some nice graphics...



Smalldean Lane...

Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Strava
« Reply #118 on: 04 June, 2014, 05:01:26 pm »
I have just started using tapiriik which seems to be able to merge all of my data from strava and training peaks.  They already do garmin connect as well and will shortly add trainerroad.

And for the audax rider this is free to use or you can have it all done automatically for $5 per year!!

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: Strava
« Reply #119 on: 03 November, 2014, 08:05:02 pm »
For those who use Veloviewer, they've moving to a paid model next week - tenner a year, or thereabouts. It'll be basically useless without paying (one upload of last ten rides, I think).

Re: Strava
« Reply #120 on: 03 November, 2014, 08:07:07 pm »
Aye, I just saw that. I reckon it's probs worth it.

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: Strava
« Reply #121 on: 03 November, 2014, 08:15:16 pm »
Aye, I just saw that. I reckon it's probs worth it.

That was my first thought, but I'm worried what Strava is going to do. Are they really going to be happy about someone else taking money out of their product? Not that I think that's what Veloviewer are doing, but I think Strava might see it that way... I'd hate to give Veloviewer a tenner to find Strava blocking them out of the API a couple of months down the line.

Re: Strava
« Reply #122 on: 03 November, 2014, 09:10:01 pm »
Aye, I just saw that. I reckon it's probs worth it.

That was my first thought, but I'm worried what Strava is going to do. Are they really going to be happy about someone else taking money out of their product? Not that I think that's what Veloviewer are doing, but I think Strava might see it that way... I'd hate to give Veloviewer a tenner to find Strava blocking them out of the API a couple of months down the line.

Yes, interesting point.  I like Vv, and though it's very well done & probably worth £10/yr, I'm not sure what I actually get out of it over and above free Strava (not being a huge 'segment person').  Anyway I've downloaded copy/pasted all my Vv (Strava) data into excel.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Strava
« Reply #123 on: 07 January, 2015, 10:17:43 am »
Being the highly-competitve finely-honed athlete that I am, I thought about using Strava for my training schedule. On the strength of that I uploaded the gps track from our ride on Sunday - a little over 40k of it.

It knows that I am a member of the YACF club but has not added my ride to the leader board. What am I doing wrong?
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Si_Co

Re: Strava
« Reply #124 on: 07 January, 2015, 10:22:31 am »
It's in last weeks leaderboard Wow, I can see it.There's a button that toggles the board between this week and last week.

Strava weeks start on a Monday.

HTH