Ethical milk

[border-rider]

"Happy (animal)" is my shorthand for "raised with a decent quality of life." 

Sure.

I wasn't asking about relative happiness though.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Neither are 'happy', they don't have emotions, they're animals.

Can't agree with you there. I'm a farmer's son, and quite happily hand-raised and petted calves and lambs - then helped cut them up and cook them.  

Sentience? It seems the more we actually observe animals, the more instance of tool usage we discover. My cat ain't no brainbox and I haven't caught him using the computer yet. I have seen him watch and mimic people to try to open doors. There's a fair bit of reasoning there.

I've been vegetarian. I'm not currently. Don't hold much onto the idea of the sanctity of humanity. If my kids are starving to death and there aren't any food sources around, then the life expectancy of any stray humans is going to be short.

[Julian]

"Happy (animal)" is my shorthand for "raised with a decent quality of life." 

Sure.

I wasn't asking about relative happiness though.

What were you asking, then?  Whether absolute happiness in a farmed animal can be assured?  I can't see how to measure it, other than in terms of quality of life.

[border-rider]

Don't worry - it was rhetorical anyway

because the cows milked for dairy products are not happy cows.

But the ones killed for beef are ?  Even if raised ethically ?

[Charlotte]

Describing target species as 'pests' is a dubious justification. Rats are universally unpopular I suppose, are you going after those? Spare the fluffly bunnies, why not foxes (bit of a payback there, eh?), stray dogs and cats, politicians?

Because unlike foxes, rats and politicians rabbits, wood pigeons and squirrels are all quite edible and exist in abundance locally.  Thinning out their numbers benefits the environment.

Are you really the crack shot who can guarantee a safe kill every time?  

Based on my abilities to reliably knock down coin sized targets at 35m, I'd say I'm quite capable of killing a rabbit in a far more humane manner than, say, the methods of industrial killing used to end the life of a battery chicken.  It's all relative, of course; but I'm beginning to think that on balance, it's better to eat a wild rabbit than a box of battery-laid eggs.  Even if I do miss every so often.

Is hunting pests for food scalable? If we all went hunting bunnies soon there would be no wild bunnies, just bunny farms with beaters to drive the bunnies towards the guns.

Of course it's not scalable.  But not doing it at all is probably as bad as everyone doing it.

Ham, you're right.  I'm starting to think that eating some kinds of meat might be no worse than my current 'unthinking veggie' mode.  It's not just about comparing it against intensive farming - but I can't deny that even as a vegetarian, I do very much consume the products of this food industry.  

Even if I don't actually eat flesh at the moment, I'm still very much responsible for animal death and suffering.  Perhaps doing the killing myself would be less hypocritical?

[Exit Stage Left]

Food ethics seems to be one of those cultural issues determined by sensitivity and time to care. It peaks among teenagers and then declines as time pressures impinge and principles become less practical. By the time people are on holiday in France with two fussy children, attitudes regress to the cultural mean.
The same is true of many ethical stances, the cultural mean is the default position and deviation is perceived as eccentric. The period from 1960 to 2000 or so was very powerfully normative, as the power of mass TV tended to reinforce societal norms. The fragmentation brought by the internet fosters communities which then define their own norms, which is actually a return to pre mass-media diversity. But it is still useful to dip into the mainstream to avoid drifting too far out to sea. A visit to Macdonalds on a Saturday afternoon works wonders. How ethical is a Macdonalds milk shake?

[border-rider]

The period from 1960 to 2000 or so was very powerfully normative

and yet saw a take-up of diverse and alternative beliefs and lifestyles in western countries far greater than the pre-TV decades

Did not the great homogenising forces of late 20th century global capitalism engender reaction, whilst making every culture superficially rather similar ?

[Exit Stage Left]

The period from 1960 to 2000 or so was very powerfully normative

and yet saw a take-up of diverse and alternative beliefs and lifestyles in western countries far greater than the pre-TV decades

Did not the great homogenising forces of late 20th century global capitalism engender reaction, whilst making every culture superficially rather similar ?

Milk is an interesting case, post-war governments created a guaranteed market for it and then promoted its consumption beyond what is nutritionally sensible. Campaigns with slogans such as 'Drink a Pinta Milk a Day' are part of our collective memory, as are the little bottles of milk we got at school. This was mainly done to avoid a decline in agriculture as occured in the 1930s and was a conscious government policy. Mass media was the tool used to make us swallow it, in conjunction with a convenient distribution system.
There have always been communities that reject mainstream belief, some like the Shakers were unsustainable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers  others, like the the Amish persist, but are always under pressure from the mainstream.

I like your introduction of 'homogenising'; most apposite.

[Charlotte]

How ethical is a Macdonalds milk shake?

I dunno.  Do they still put beef fat in it?

*googles*

     
Ingredients (Allergen statement in ALL CAPS.)
Vanilla Reduced Fat Ice Cream: Milk, sugar, cream, nonfat milk solids, corn syrup solids, mono- and diglycerides, guar gum, dextrose, sodium citrate, artificial vanilla flavor, sodium phosphate, carrageenan, disodium phosphate, cellulose gum, vitamin A palmitate.

CONTAINS: MILK.
Triple Thick Vanilla Shake Syrup: Corn syrup, water, vanilla extract, caramel color, citric acid, pectin, sodium benzoate (preservative), yellow 5, yellow 6.

May contain small amounts of other shake flavors served at the restaurant, including egg ingredients when Egg Nog Shakes are available.
Food ExchangesBack To Top
6 carbohydrate, 3 fat
 
 
Note: Nutrient contributions from individual components may not equal the total due to federal rounding regulations. Percent Daily Values (DV) and RDIs are based on unrounded values.

** Percent Daily Values (DV) are based on a 2,000 calorie diet. Your daily values may be higher or lower depending on your calorie needs.

To customize menu items that display components:

    * Remove components by unchecking the box next to the component. Then click the Recalculate button.
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The nutrition information on this website is derived from testing conducted in accredited laboratories, published resources, or from information provided from McDonald's suppliers. The nutrition information is based on standard product formulations and serving sizes. All nutrition information is based on average values for ingredients from McDonald's suppliers throughout the U.S. and is rounded to meet current U.S. FDA NLEA guidelines. Variation in serving sizes, preparation techniques, product testing and sources of supply, as well as regional and seasonal differences may affect the nutrition values for each product. In addition, product formulations change periodically. You should expect some variation in the nutrient content of the products purchased in our restaurants. None of our products is certified as vegetarian. This information is correct as of November 2010, unless stated otherwise.

SPLENDA® No Calorie Sweetener is the registered trademark of McNeil Nutritionals, LLC
EQUAL® 0 Calorie Sweetener is a registered trademark of Merisant Company

(my bold)

McDonalds claim to use organic milk in their tea and coffee, but not in their 'shakes'.

[L CC]

I'm always going to subscribe to producing cheap food, however badly the animals are treated, while there are still children in this country with inadequate nutrition.

It's much easier to be ethical if you can afford it.

A healthy diet is not cheap. There are still children with rickets. It is appalling that the cheapest food is the worst- fat and sugar are cheaper than protein and vegetables. There is a reason that turkey twizzlers were a staple of school dinners before Jamie got his hands on them- they're cheap. That is still the criteria that many people make their food choice on.

[Ham]

I am mildly amused by the changes to my shopping basket, to accommodate the recent discovery that my daughter is pretty much meat intolerant, and has therefore gone veggie.

My basket used to contain pretty much no processed products: I bake all our bread, cook all our meals from ingredients etc etc (OK, except for drinks and tins). Now, I have all sorts of things in the trolley like quorn, some veggie pies etc etc. And yes, I know I could cook all that from scratch as well, but still......

[Julian]

A healthy diet can be cheap if you have the time to prepare food from scratch.  Making chickpea burgers is cheaper than buying turkey twizzlers, but more time consuming.  Soy mince is about 35p a bag and makes a perfectly decent chilli when adulterated with enough chilli powder and beans.

My brief foray into veganism 8 years ago was prompted by financial as well as ethical concerns.

Healthy processed food is ludicrously expensive and I realise not all parents have enough spare time to piss about making chickpea burgers.

[Ham]

I'm always going to subscribe to producing cheap food, however badly the animals are treated, while there are still children in this country with inadequate nutrition.

It's much easier to be ethical if you can afford it.

A healthy diet is not cheap. There are still children with rickets. It is appalling that the cheapest food is the worst- fat and sugar are cheaper than protein and vegetables. There is a reason that turkey twizzlers were a staple of school dinners before Jamie got his hands on them- they're cheap. That is still the criteria that many people make their food choice on.

As I said, I'm pleased to be able to make that choice, but the answer is not necessarily cheap crap. You can produce wholesome tasty meals for comparatively little money. I would never criticise anyone for making food choices based on their financial capability, but I would try to educate people so that they could make the best choice possible. And the simple fact stands, if turkey twizzlers had not been invented, the world would not have starved.

[border-rider]

I'm always going to subscribe to producing cheap food, however badly the animals are treated, while there are still children in this country with inadequate nutrition.

The solution to inadequate nutrition for children is not screaming agony for animals

[iakobski]

How ethical is a Macdonalds milk shake?

I dunno.  Do they still put beef fat in it?

*googles*

     
Ingredients (Allergen statement in ALL CAPS.)
Vanilla Reduced Fat Ice Cream: Milk, sugar, cream, nonfat milk solids, corn syrup solids, mono- and diglycerides, guar gum, dextrose, sodium citrate, artificial vanilla flavor, sodium phosphate, carrageenan, disodium phosphate, cellulose gum, vitamin A palmitate.

CONTAINS: MILK.
Triple Thick Vanilla Shake Syrup: Corn syrup, water, vanilla extract, caramel color, citric acid, pectin, sodium benzoate (preservative), yellow 5, yellow 6.

May contain small amounts of other shake flavors served at the restaurant, including egg ingredients when Egg Nog Shakes are available.
...
You should expect some variation in the nutrient content of the products purchased in our restaurants. None of our products is certified as vegetarian. This information is correct as of November 2010, unless stated otherwise.

SPLENDA® No Calorie Sweetener is the registered trademark of McNeil Nutritionals, LLC
EQUAL® 0 Calorie Sweetener is a registered trademark of Merisant Company

(my bold)

McDonalds claim to use organic milk in their tea and coffee, but not in their 'shakes'.

Why did you bold that bit? Are you saying the shakes are not vegetarian?

[Julian]

None of it is.  The shakes contain some sort of animal protein and even the coating of the apple pie is not veggie.  The chips are pre-cooked in beef fat before being frozen and then deep fried in veggie oil at the outlet.

[iakobski]

None of it is.  The shakes contain some sort of animal protein

Yes they do - it's called milk.

Are you saying the shakes are not vegetarian? Which of the ingredients listed above is the not-vegetarian one?

and even the coating of the apple pie is not veggie. 

pastry? Well, yes it's not unusual for pastry to be made with animal fat, but not McDonalds apple pies which contain:

Water, Apples (23%), Wheat Flour, Sugar, Vegetable Oil (Rapeseed, Palm), Modified Waxy Maize Starch, Salt, Dextrose, Spices, Flavouring, Cassia Extract, Citric Acid.Prepared in the restaurants using a non-hydrogenated vegetable oil.

The chips are pre-cooked in beef fat before being frozen and then deep fried in veggie oil at the outlet.

No, they're not.

In other countries, eg USA, they contain beef extract to give them the old flavour as if they were cooked in beef fat. In the UK they don't.

[Charlotte]

Do you work for McDonalds, Jake?

[border-rider]

Are you saying the shakes are not vegetarian? Which of the ingredients listed above is the not-vegetarian one?

Possibly mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids.  These days - like the fats in biscuits - most of these are vegetarian but (again like biscuits) they didn't used to be.  

and even the coating of the apple pie is not veggie.  

pastry? Well, yes it's not unusual for pastry to be made with animal fat, but not McDonalds apple pies which contain:

Water, Apples (23%), Wheat Flour, Sugar, Vegetable Oil (Rapeseed, Palm), Modified Waxy Maize Starch, Salt, Dextrose, Spices, Flavouring, Cassia Extract, Citric Acid.Prepared in the restaurants using a non-hydrogenated vegetable oil.

Would the glazing be of enough mass/volume to be included in that list ?  Glazing's often non-veggie though I dunno about McD's

Either way, there's the issue of how they're cooked:

Apple Pie - How do you make... - McDonald's UK

[iakobski]

Do you work for McDonalds, Jake?

No I wouldn't eat a McDonalds if you paid me. Nor work for them.

There's lots of things McD's is crap for, there's no need to add ones that are false.

[Julian]

lol, I'm no expert on McD's - not been into one save to use the loo for well over ten years.

It certainly used to be the case that the chips were pre-cooked in beef fat and the apple pies contained some sort of lard.  These days their adverts claim free range eggs and happy smiling children playing innocently among corn fields, so maybe this is no longer the case.  However, as they actually say on their website that none of their products are vegetarian, I'm lovin' scepticism.

[Charlotte]

we cannot guarantee that the oil used to fry the pies in has not become mixed with oil that has been used to cook chicken products during the oil filtration process in the restaurants. There are two different methods for filtering frying oils employed across McDonald's restaurants: the first utilises self-filtering vats fitted in its kitchens and the oil from each frying station is filtered into a separate container. So French Fry oil goes into one container, with Veggie Patty, Filet-o-Fish, chicken menu items and Apple Pies into another.

So they fry their apple pies in the same oil as they fry their fish?  Excuse me whilst I just go and Ralph up in the corner... 

[fuaran]

It certainly used to be the case that the chips were pre-cooked in beef fat and the apple pies contained some sort of lard.  These days their adverts claim free range eggs and happy smiling children playing innocently among corn fields, so maybe this is no longer the case.  However, as they actually say on their website that none of their products are vegetarian, I'm lovin' scepticism.

In the USA maybe. In the UK, the fries have always been vegetarian.
That is presumably a US website where say none of the products are certified as vegetarian. In the UK the fries and milkshakes are approved by the Vegetarian Society (though I notice the apple pie doesn't seem to be). Vegsoc Approved

[iakobski]

Would the glazing be of enough mass/volume to be included in that list ?  Glazing's often non-veggie though I dunno about McD's

Either way, there's the issue of how they're cooked:

Apple Pie - How do you make... - McDonald's UK

The glazing would definitely have to be included on the list, and yes cross-contamination is an issue. However, the level of cross-contamination in McD's is likely to be very much lower than in most other places that cook meat/fish. I didn't claim they were veggie, just that the coating does not contain meat (any more....)

[iakobski]

lol, I'm no expert on McD's - not been into one save to use the loo for well over ten years.

It certainly used to be the case that the chips were pre-cooked in beef fat and the apple pies contained some sort of lard.  These days their adverts claim free range eggs and happy smiling children playing innocently among corn fields, so maybe this is no longer the case.  However, as they actually say on their website that none of their products are vegetarian, I'm lovin' scepticism.

They don't. In the quote Charlotte put up they say none of their products is certified vegetarian. There's a world of difference, and that's what I picked up. I'm not an apologist for fast food.