Author Topic: Carpe Diem . Everything's not Peaches. (Read 4359 times)

morbihan · « **on:** 19 January, 2017, 03:12:26 pm »

On the end of my skewer.

Anyone got hints on resolving a seized thru axle.
Soaked in WD.
Has unthreaded out of the fork (phew), but thats as far as it goes

Is it Hammer Time?

bumper · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 January, 2017, 03:20:09 pm »

I'd find a small socket that fits, fit it onto an extension bar and give it a few firm taps.

mzjo · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 January, 2017, 04:22:54 pm »

If you resort to a hammer and drift make very sure that you have the opposite side well blocked to avoid damaging frame/forks or wheel.

Good dose of copper slip on it when you put it (or the replacement) in.

(Thinks - new-fangled stuff and nonsense, what was wrong with butterfly nuts? No, don't answer that!!)

Karla · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 January, 2017, 04:24:33 pm »

Insert the offending nut in a bench vise, then turn the bike?

morbihan · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 January, 2017, 04:32:34 pm »

A good few well aimed smacks with a hammer and a socket, and......still stuck solid Gaaaaaaaaah!
Its one of these.
https://www.dtswiss.com/Components/RWS/RWS-Thru-axle-front
Truly welded into one of these
http://www.whiteind.com/xmr

Yes absolutely to the copper slip!!!

(side bar.) I ride in Bermuda where you sweat bullets and everything is caked in ocean salt and humidity. If you want to see something visibly rust before your eyes, this be the place.

bumper · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 January, 2017, 04:41:34 pm »

If it's unscrewed from the fork it must've come out 10mm on the other side, no?
Don't tell me it unscrewed and forced the fork apart.

Living in the UK we're used to thing rusting and seizing, grease everything that needs to ever come apart again.

morbihan · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 January, 2017, 04:50:16 pm »

Quote from: bumper on 19 January, 2017, 04:41:34 pm

If it's unscrewed from the fork it must've come out 10mm on the other side, no?
Don't tell me it unscrewed and forced the fork apart.

Living in the UK we're used to thing rusting and seizing, grease everything that needs to ever come apart again.

yes its come out the other side, but then just rotates with the hub.

bumper · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 January, 2017, 04:55:44 pm »

I'd get something stronger than wd and soak it overnight , then hit it again. Heat may knacker the hub if you heat the axle, if you damage the axle threads hitting it they can be replaced for little money.

I'm a heavy handed nobber though who loves using a hammer $:-\$

morbihan · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 January, 2017, 04:59:38 pm »

Well at least its happened now and not up a hill half way round TCR#5 with a flat.
I'd be really screwed

PhilO · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 January, 2017, 05:05:48 pm »

So seized in the hub then...

Whatever you do, you're going to want new hub bearings after hitting it with a hammer.

bumper · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 January, 2017, 05:18:58 pm »

Hitting or pressing will possibly knacker the bearings. The front and rear on the zaskar have been sticky on a couple of occasions. They've been tapped out with no bearing damage but they've never been truly stuck. This is a common problem with maxles $:-\$

bumper · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 January, 2017, 05:22:32 pm »

screw it back into the fork slightly, a few threads. Enough to splay the forks and tap the threaded end lightly with a soft rubber malle. Obviously avoid clobbering the forks. The axle should help itself out this way.

morbihan · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 January, 2017, 01:06:40 am »

took some serious welly to unstick in the end. lubes didn't help.
hammer time = shagged swiss DT thru bolt, (thread still okayish in fork) End section of white industry hub is a goner.
Taking off the disc calliper prior to brute force helped.

Bummer.

DaveReading · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 January, 2017, 07:57:12 am »

Quote from: Morbihan on 19 January, 2017, 03:12:26 pm

Anyone got hints on resolving a seized thru axle.
Soaked in WD.

Might be worth trying proper penetrating oil. PlusGas is miles better than WD40 for freeing up stuff.

bumper · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 January, 2017, 08:09:56 am »

At least its out

I think I smeared some thick oil on mine last time instead of grease. I can't remember why though, its been a while since I pulled them out. Better try later $:-\$

morbihan · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 January, 2017, 12:00:34 pm »

Thanks for the various advice.
In the end brute force was the only way to go, it wasn't going to come free with lubes. I'll check into advice on heavier marine grease from the manufacturers. I'm normally leery of loads of grease as it attracts dirt and crap, but after this palaver....
I'm also wondering if the DT Swiss thru bolt was inadvertently overtightened, contributing to the issue.

Having a dynamo built up (different wheel) for TCR so will be looking DEEPLY into making sure I don't get another incident like this. If it happened up in the Tatras and I had a flat tire there would be much swearing.

mrcharly-YHT · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 January, 2017, 12:08:17 pm »

Had you used copper slip?

The supposed advantage of copper slip over all other greases is that after the greasy component is washed away, some of the copper remains, to prevent complete seizing.

Brucey · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 January, 2017, 01:37:05 pm »

the problem with this setup is that the clearances may be mere microns between the parts that have seized. If they are tight enough, most of the grease will be pushed out of the joint during assembly and if the grease dries out/reacts, the thickener can be a very effective adhesive; up to a point, the narrower the gap, the stronger the bond.

Think about seized seat posts; it is often the same deal.

So by all means use an anti-seize agent if the clearances are large enough, but otherwise I would suggest something different, e.g. drilling the hub/bearing spacer to allow oil to be added to the assembly on a regular basis. A little oil leakage might make a small mess that you will have to wipe up every now and then but more importantly it will deter salty crud from getting in and causing a repeat performance.

IIRC white industries use polished (non anodised) 6xxx aluminium for their hubshells (and presumably spacers etc too). DT probably use anodised 7xxx material. Add salt water for a witch's brew.....

cheers

morbihan · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 January, 2017, 03:54:00 pm »

yeah thanks for the thoughts.
I do copper slip the seat post (Ti on Ti.)
Copper slip in the thru axle sounds like the way to go.....next time:)
I'll chase up DT Swiss and WI via the bike builder (Firefly) and see what they come back with.
It may well be that Bermuda is such an extreme environment that extra measures should be taken. Being a small Island in the middle of the ocean, it doesn't matter which way the wind is blowing, its laden with salt; the ocean round here is apparently one of the saltiest regions of the oceans (I don't know why) and the humidity levels are generally through the roof.
I have literally witnessed aluminium window frames rot away within a couple of years here.

mzjo · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 January, 2017, 10:10:58 pm »

I am sorry to be a bit slow on this. I had quite forgotten that I have been in a similar situation - not with a pushbike but with a motorbike (BMW R80/7) which welded a bearing onto the rear wheel spindle. The magic solution was to sacrifice the spindle by cutting it into sections to remove the wheel from the bike after which drifting the bearings out was much more straightforward. Of course the BMW bearings were taper rollers which made the job of separating bits a bit easier. In the case of the pushbike I don't know what a through-hub axle actually looks like but if the axle would move to allow a space big enough for a hacksaw blade between hub and fork the same procedure should be possible. The overall layout can't be that different from a motorbike.

Brucey, copperslip works on motorbikes - often with 16mm or 17mm spindles. If the fit of a through-hub axle is that much tighter I would suggest that it might well be too tight. The engineering isn't that different really.

Brucey · « **Reply #20 on:** 20 January, 2017, 10:31:22 pm »

Quote from: mzjo on 20 January, 2017, 10:10:58 pm

.

Brucey, copperslip works on motorbikes - often with 16mm or 17mm spindles. If the fit of a through-hub axle is that much tighter I would suggest that it might well be too tight. The engineering isn't that different really.

As an owner and spanner-wielder on quite a few motorbikes I agree it does usually work pretty well there.

But in the case of this through-axle, we are dealing with parts from two different manufacturers, and I suspect one is anodised and the other is not, which are always causes for concern; not all manufacturers will 'interpret' the standard in the same way, and the sizing on anodised parts tends to be a bit variable. The fit could indeed be too tight, and the corrosion could go like billy-oh because of the materials.

cheers

morbihan · « **Reply #21 on:** 21 January, 2017, 04:22:54 am »

Quote from: Brucey on 20 January, 2017, 10:31:22 pm

Quote from: mzjo on 20 January, 2017, 10:10:58 pm
.

Brucey, copperslip works on motorbikes - often with 16mm or 17mm spindles. If the fit of a through-hub axle is that much tighter I would suggest that it might well be too tight. The engineering isn't that different really.

As an owner and spanner-wielder on quite a few motorbikes I agree it does usually work pretty well there.

But in the case of this through-axle, we are dealing with parts from two different manufacturers, and I suspect one is anodised and the other is not, which are always causes for concern; not all manufacturers will 'interpret' the standard in the same way, and the sizing on anodised parts tends to be a bit variable. The fit could indeed be too tight, and the corrosion could go like billy-oh because of the materials.

cheers

hacksaw/angle grinder was the rapidly approaching "final solution" when we got enough bolt poking through after the initial burst of jack hammering.
Chatted with a mate tonight here in salty Bermuda who works on boats. He is a big fan of Boeshield T9 and Tef Gel.

Torslanda · « **Reply #22 on:** 21 January, 2017, 10:23:36 pm »

Metal free anti seize compound helps prevent electrolitic corrosion, can also be used inside brake calipers, seatposts, as assembly paste on bolts etc.

morbihan · « **Reply #23 on:** 22 January, 2017, 07:07:35 pm »

Another chat this morning about the local corrosion dramas.
We currently have all the Americas Cup guys here training and campaigning for the event (being held here this Summer)
One of the AC mechanics hails from Coastal Maine and thought he had seen the full extent that the environment could do to his tools and the bost hardware.
...Until he arrived here

mzjo · « **Reply #24 on:** 24 January, 2017, 04:53:15 pm »

Quote from: Brucey on 20 January, 2017, 01:37:05 pm

the problem with this setup is that the clearances may be mere microns between the parts that have seized. If they are tight enough, most of the grease will be pushed out of the joint during assembly and if the grease dries out/reacts, the thickener can be a very effective adhesive; up to a point, the narrower the gap, the stronger the bond.

Think about seized seat posts; it is often the same deal.

So by all means use an anti-seize agent if the clearances are large enough, but otherwise I would suggest something different, e.g. drilling the hub/bearing spacer to allow oil to be added to the assembly on a regular basis. A little oil leakage might make a small mess that you will have to wipe up every now and then but more importantly it will deter salty crud from getting in and causing a repeat performance.

IIRC white industries use polished (non anodised) 6xxx aluminium for their hubshells (and presumably spacers etc too). DT probably use anodised 7xxx material. Add salt water for a witch's brew.....

cheers

Late thoughts on this thread.

But the axle should be contacting on the bearings so the hubshell material should not matter in this case. (Tempted to say "have a bearing on... " but on second thoughts I'll stick to my dayjob!). On the other hand alloy axle in contact with steel bearings in salty environment could well be worse; especially if DT have managed to copy from the same metallurgy exercise book as Honda did for their motorbikes in the 70's and 80's. Of course getting the bearings out of the hub could be no joke as well if the corrosion has set in.

Would a steel axle be less likely to stick - or titanium perhaps, although it doesn't give a great feeling of confidence? Could be a place for developing carbon thru-axles for these situations.