Author Topic: Doping in sport  (Read 5631 times)

fuzzy

Doping in sport
« on: 25 February, 2011, 01:45:01 pm »
I posted this in my blog but thought I would copy it accross here as well as a discussion point.

These are my initial views on what should be done to combat doping-

I have kept away from the debate whilst the Alberto Contador saga was played out. Now it has come to a conclusion and, with the comments from some folk following Lance Armstrong announcing his retirement, I thought I would say my piece.

Alberto Contador has undergone examination by his national governing body and was found to be not guilty of doping. End of. Time to move on.
Fans of our sport may not agree with the findings but the verdict has been passed and we need to put the matter behind us.
My personal feelings are that I pray he was truthful. I enjoyed watching him in the 2010 Tour de France and to have that enjoyment destroyed if he had doped would be tragic for me.

Lance Armstrong continues to be subject of accusations and rumour about practices he allegedly involved himself in during his epic journey to 7 Tour de France victories.
I think he should be left alone. During his career, he has been subject to numerous in and out of competition tests, each of which he passed at the time.
The thought that Armstrong is a liar and cheat is something I do want to contemplate. Watching him race was great. The time trial ability, ‘The Look’ that Jan Ullrich received as he was passed by Lance, the recovery from the spectators bag induce crash, the cyclocross escapade after Beloki crashed out- all fantastic memories, memories I want to cherish. If it turned out he doped, these memories will be diminished. Not destroyed because they were still good things to watch, but sadly diminished all the same.

What is my take on the fight against the scourge of doping?

I think the time has come to take the responsibility away from national and international sporting governing bodies and national anti doping agencies.

All aspects of doping control should be the responsibility of one international agency with law enforcement status in each signatory country, perhaps overseen by an already existing international organisation - the United Nations. I know we have WADA but, they seem to be more an oversight committee than a control agency. I will call this agency the ADA for the rest of this post.

Doping and associated offences should be subject to criminal conviction in the countries where either the sporting event took place or the home country of the athlete involved, with custodial sentences the automatic outcome of positive tests, which strikes me as a stronger deterrent than a 2 year ban. This is a good reason to have the UN oversee the ADA.

This one agency should be responsible for sample collection, delivery to labs that they control and testing. Knowledge of what labs are being used during a particular competition should be possessed only by staff of the ADA.

International and national governing bodies should be required to sign up to the ADA constitution under penalty of exclusion from international competition. The International Olympic Committee would obviously need to be a very early signatory.

In competition testing should include all athletes finishing in the top 3 of an individual event and random testing should account for at least 10% of athletes not falling within that category by the end of an event (so 10% of riders in the TdF for example, who did not top 3 on any stage would still have been tested by the conclusion of the last stage on at least one occasion). Team events such as Football, Cricket, Rugby etc should be subject to 10% of the players at each event being tested.

Out of competition testing should be unannounced. Athletes should be required to keep the ADA appraised of their whereabouts at all times if away from home overnight. They should also be contactable at all times. The ADA should be able to contact an athlete to establish there whereabouts at all times. This would then facilitate testers attending the athletes’ location and obtaining samples. Procedures should be established to take into account such situations as an athlete being at a cinema/ theatre/ other venue/ situation where having a mobile phone go off would get them lynched.

Athletes not wishing to be subjected to these stringent lifestyle intrusions have a choice- don’t compete. If you want to compete, you sign up.

Retrospective testing of samples e.g. testing Lance Armstrong’s samples from the 1999 TdF in 2011 doesn’t happen. If it passes the scrutiny of the day, it passes.

Breaches of confidentiality and integrity of the processes and systems should be treated as criminal offences in the country the breaches occurred.

Testing labs should ideally be owned by the ADA but, in the event this is not possible, ADA officers should be posted to each accredited lab on a permanent basis with the responsibility of ensuring the labs comply with the rules, practices and conditions required for robust and resilient results.

This is going to be an expensive undertaking but it is a necessary expense I think.

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #1 on: 25 February, 2011, 01:55:14 pm »
So you don't really want any change then (apart from a unitary anti-doping body)?




andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #2 on: 25 February, 2011, 02:11:59 pm »
Seems like a lot of fuss and legal mithering over a bicycle race.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #3 on: 25 February, 2011, 03:26:48 pm »
Doping in sport is widespread, insufficiently controlled by the existing authorities (covered up by several) and has tremendous rewards. Either doping is relentlessly prosecuted for as far back as is possible to detect (to remove those very tempting rewards for doping) or accept that to win at the highest levels requires athletes to accept a significant chance of permanent injury or death. Is that really what people want?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #4 on: 25 February, 2011, 03:39:40 pm »
Indeed. Which is why if you want to tackle doping you need retrospective testing and the big name test-failers like Armstrong and Contador to go down

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #5 on: 25 February, 2011, 04:20:56 pm »
Making the offences criminal rather than civil will prevent the farces like the Landis incident (where the science was shocking and would have been thrown out in a court of law), give more credibility to the anti-doping labs and prevent the political machinations that we see at the top levels of international sport.

The current whereabouts system is one hour of availability every day. That is fine.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #6 on: 25 February, 2011, 05:27:06 pm »
Making the offences criminal rather than civil will prevent the farces like the Landis incident (where the science was shocking and would have been thrown out in a court of law), give more credibility to the anti-doping labs and prevent the political machinations that we see at the top levels of international sport.

The current whereabouts system is one hour of availability every day. That is fine.

..d

Doping is a criminal offence in Belgium - the police do tests as well as the cycling bodies, and the regional government as well. !
Hasn't necessarily stopped anyone in Belgium charging up

inc

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #7 on: 25 February, 2011, 05:28:39 pm »


Alberto Contador has undergone examination by his national governing body and was found to be not guilty of doping. End of. Time to move on.

My personal feelings are that I pray he was truthful. I enjoyed watching him in the 2010 Tour de France and to have that enjoyment destroyed if he had doped would be tragic for me.

Lance Armstrong continues to be subject of accusations and rumour about practices he allegedly involved himself in during his epic journey to 7 Tour de France victories.
I think he should be left alone.

The thought that Armstrong is a liar and cheat is something I do want to contemplate.



One of the problems with doping is the clever dopers are one step ahead of the testing so retrospective testing is essential if you want to catch dopers. With Contrador  you failed to mention the plasticiser traces found in his urine which indicate blood transfusion. That Armstrong doped is certain there is too much evidence to suggest otherwise. AFLD are handing over his (positive) 1999 samples to the American enquiry.

It seems you want to catch dopers but not Contrador or Armstrong as it will be tragic for you and something you do not want to contemplate, get real .

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #8 on: 25 February, 2011, 05:38:59 pm »
I agree that retrospective testing is essential because dopers are ahead of the tests, but this also means that we have to have a legal definition of doping to encompass all foreseeable possibilities including those which are not yet practical. In other words, it's not enough to have a list of banned substances or practices, because the dopers - that is, the sport - is inventing new performance-boosting substances all the time. We probably won't be able to catch next year's dopers with next year's tests, because we don't know yet what to test for, let alone having a test for it. So we need to define doping in terms of intent, attitude and a wide body of practice. The trouble is making that stick legally.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #9 on: 25 February, 2011, 06:01:10 pm »
I'm against retrospective testing - for pharmaceutics at least. The rules on the day say what you can't have in your sample - that has to be the end of it.

Let's say, just as a silly example, that in the future someone discovers that garlic enhances performance, and it is put on "the list". Will loads of riders then be found retrospectively positive?

Caffeine was on the list until recently, should anyone previously positived on caffeine be now retrospectively cleared?


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #10 on: 25 February, 2011, 06:05:47 pm »
So you are encouraging riders to dope with experimental drugs? Bad move IMHO.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #11 on: 25 February, 2011, 06:12:06 pm »
I'm against retrospective testing - for pharmaceutics at least. The rules on the day say what you can't have in your sample - that has to be the end of it.

Let's say, just as a silly example, that in the future someone discovers that garlic enhances performance, and it is put on "the list". Will loads of riders then be found retrospectively positive?

Caffeine was on the list until recently, should anyone previously positived on caffeine be now retrospectively cleared?

That is not what I mean by retrospective testing.  I'm not suggesting you test for substances that were not banned at the time, I'm suggesting you test for substances that were banned, when you have a test available to you.

EPO being the obvious example. Rampant use since the late 80's but no test until 2000 (up to that time you had the 50% HCT rule). Armstrong's '99 Tour samples are to be released to the feds for testing.  This will be a retrospective test.  Ricco and Piepoli's bust in the 2008 Tour was for CERA use.  They didn't know there was a test for it when they doped.

As it stands, athletes and their doctors are able to develop methods to circumvent the dope testing currently in operation, with apparent ease.  The bio-passport can give them useful information to help them maintain undetected doping.  The threat of being caught retrospectively in the near-future will certainly change the complexion of doping.

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #12 on: 25 February, 2011, 06:13:58 pm »
Amateur race in France, just local lads - a friend was puzzled to hear "no vampires today". Times and performances were well above par.

Seineseeker

  • Biting the cherry of existential delight
    • The Art of Pleisure
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #13 on: 25 February, 2011, 06:33:23 pm »
This argument has already run and run and run. I don't agree with hardly anything you have said Fuzzy. It's endemic at the top of the sport, we all know that, and I just don't see how saying aw shucks leave these guys alone is the right thing to do.

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #14 on: 25 February, 2011, 07:55:34 pm »
I still think it's always difficult to overlay current thinking on things and cultures of the past. We don't now allow cock fighting, and most of us would abhor it - but when it was done it was a normal part of day to day life.

Many of us enjoy music from the 60s,70s and 80s. A significant number of these bands (or individuals in them) used a lot of substance; is the music any less valid or enjoyable now we know this?

I'm pretty sure that the pro scene is a lot "cleaner" than it has been since there was a pro scene. One of the reasons for my belief is that the racing is more boring - no-one wants to make the big move or take the big risk any more. Of course, it's a "good thing" it's cleaner, but I still love the films of some of the major moves from races from the past!

Anyway, it's not what happened in the past that should be worrying officialdom - it's what the future is bringing (or may already have brought) - and it isn't pharmaceuticals.

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #15 on: 25 February, 2011, 08:01:09 pm »
That is a very confused post, and not up to your usual standards.  I'm wondering if, since it's friday night, you might have cracked open the Pot Belge  ;)

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #16 on: 25 February, 2011, 08:02:41 pm »
That is a very confused post, and not up to your usual standards.  I'm wondering if, since it's friday night, you might have cracked open the Pot Belge  ;)

 ;D

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #17 on: 25 February, 2011, 08:05:22 pm »
Drugs in music is fun. Drugs in sport in the era of EPO and blood doping increases power by 10% or more, no comparison with earlier methods and dramatically skewing results towards those that can/will charge up to a greater extent.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #18 on: 25 February, 2011, 08:08:08 pm »
Just for your thoughts then (and comrade Kunst, I'm not running on leaded)

Gene Therapy in Sports: Gene Doping | Learn Science at Scitable


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #19 on: 25 February, 2011, 10:08:26 pm »
Old news, gene doping is going to be a big problem soon.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #20 on: 25 February, 2011, 10:16:21 pm »
Personally I think the definition of cheating should include training, and maybe even looking like you are trying. Imagine what the mountain stages of the Grand tours would look like. Sprints would be amazing.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #21 on: 25 February, 2011, 10:49:24 pm »
Hang on, is it the actual personal use of PEDs that's a criminal offence in Belgium?

Or something more subtle, like cheating in professional sport, or a blanket rule for POMs, or something?
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #22 on: 25 February, 2011, 11:09:54 pm »
Hang on, is it the actual personal use of PEDs that's a criminal offence in Belgium?

Or something more subtle, like cheating in professional sport, or a blanket rule for POMs, or something?

Bit of both. Remember, Frankie VDB's house was raided by the police.

Generally, it's about sporting fraud (there's betting on kermesses)

They are scary things - they turn up about half way through a race, sub-machine gun holding officer on the door. If you're numbers called - you go, no messing.


The regional government testers turned up at the Ghent 6 on the Friday night, and were acting very intimidatingly. They were making it very clear they were gunning for Keisse. In the end everyone gave samples and no more has been heard.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #23 on: 25 February, 2011, 11:14:10 pm »
All is clear.  I'd hate to get busted for my Astana beans.   :demon:
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Doping in sport
« Reply #24 on: 26 February, 2011, 12:08:47 pm »
Personally I think the definition of cheating should include training, and maybe even looking like you are trying. Imagine what the mountain stages of the Grand tours would look like. Sprints would be amazing.
I like this idea - I could be an Olympian! Seriously though, we hear complaints that equipment technology is unfair - remember the 1996 Olympics when the US favourite lost to an Irish swimmer, they tried to claim her nano-ultimatium-microfibre suit gave her an unfair advantage? And all the UCI's petty rules against aero-this and that, and minium weight limits. We tend to dismiss these as either whinging (in the first case) or trying to hold back the inevitable improvements of technology. Yet if it's unfair advantages that we object to in doping, technological developments should also be banned - they are expensive and not available to all. The same applies to new training and nutrition techniques.

That leaves us with doping defined as using peformance-enhancing substances which harm the athlete's health, which I think is the approach favoured by the IOC. But again, some training techniques lead to injuries in the long term. It's still 'worth it' for the competitor, because the negative effects don't kick in till after retirement. Hopefully.

So how do we decide what is doping and what is training?

I look forward to the next TdF with naked riders (no windcheating lycra and pointy helmets) on Hercules Roadsters, carrying tubes and tools in wicker baskets, stopping off for a burger and a beer at lunch time.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.