The TT Thread

[Kim]

The main issue with TTs is that most of the times they are still very old fashioned and it’s difficult to involve the new generations. Distances which are often too long, courses which are way too busy with fast traffic, course codes that are not explained, a historic tendency to operate in secret and yes, people who moan because they want wind in their hair, like it was back in the days.
There are more rides by the over 70s than there are by the under 20s… that is frightening!

I don't claim to be fast, or even young, and my TT experience is inna BHPC trying-not-to-wipe-out-going-clockwise-round-the-hairpin-at-Darley-Moor style.  But while I'm happy to mix with traffic at audax pace, the prospect of trying to ride flat out while maintaining awareness of  a) traffic  and  2) dubious road surfaces  really does not appeal.

It's interesting.   I have never felt unsafe racing on a DC.   I have used the E2, B courses on the A11 and H courses on the A31.   I never raced Etwall which is the other 'fast' piece of road popular with testers.   When you are flying along at 30mph you don't seem to notice.

I have, however, marshalled a few times and the behaviour and speed of traffic has scared me.   It must be down to perception.

My helpers on the Mersey 24 said the roads felt very busy but I never noticed it when racing.

Probably a relative speed thing, traffic's less scary with a lower speed differential.

The problem I find that is the faster I go, the more mundane things like crosswinds and crap road surfaces add to TEH FEAR.  My general perception of the threat of fast motor traffic is that it's what I'm going to end up under if I fall off my bike, rather than them driving into me.

[felstedrider]

The main issue with TTs is that most of the times they are still very old fashioned and it’s difficult to involve the new generations. Distances which are often too long, courses which are way too busy with fast traffic, course codes that are not explained, a historic tendency to operate in secret and yes, people who moan because they want wind in their hair, like it was back in the days.
There are more rides by the over 70s than there are by the under 20s… that is frightening!

I don't claim to be fast, or even young, and my TT experience is inna BHPC trying-not-to-wipe-out-going-clockwise-round-the-hairpin-at-Darley-Moor style.  But while I'm happy to mix with traffic at audax pace, the prospect of trying to ride flat out while maintaining awareness of  a) traffic  and  2) dubious road surfaces  really does not appeal.

It's interesting.   I have never felt unsafe racing on a DC.   I have used the E2, B courses on the A11 and H courses on the A31.   I never raced Etwall which is the other 'fast' piece of road popular with testers.   When you are flying along at 30mph you don't seem to notice.

I have, however, marshalled a few times and the behaviour and speed of traffic has scared me.   It must be down to perception.

My helpers on the Mersey 24 said the roads felt very busy but I never noticed it when racing.

Probably a relative speed thing, traffic's less scary with a lower speed differential.

The problem I find that is the faster I go, the more mundane things like crosswinds and crap road surfaces add to TEH FEAR.  My general perception of the threat of fast motor traffic is that it's what I'm going to end up under if I fall off my bike, rather than them driving into me.

Not being a particularly beefy rider sidewinds have been an issue.   I ran a fairly shallow front wheel for that very reason.   There are a couple of stretches of the fast courses (A11 around Wymondham I'm looking at you) that properly throw you around and caused me to have bruises on my elbows.   They are worse when you are going more slowly.

[Notfromrugby]

The point is not whether you feel safe or whether you are indeed safe, the point is can you get a youngster to race a TT on the A46? If the answer is no, then you have a problem…
It is easier to move to a more beginner friendly course, than it is to convince them that the A46 is safe.
One of the problem of the old skool side of CTT is that they believe the latter is the easier thing to do

[Kim]

GPWM

[felstedrider]

The point is not whether you feel safe or whether you are indeed safe, the point is can you get a youngster to race a TT on the A46? If the answer is no, then you have a problem…
It is easier to move to a more beginner friendly course, than it is to convince them that the A46 is safe.
One of the problem of the old skool side of CTT is that they believe the latter is the easier thing to do

Purely playing devils advocate here but I'm PB chasing after investing in training and kit, what do I care if a youngster wants to race on the same bit of road ?

[Notfromrugby]

The point is not whether you feel safe or whether you are indeed safe, the point is can you get a youngster to race a TT on the A46? If the answer is no, then you have a problem…
It is easier to move to a more beginner friendly course, than it is to convince them that the A46 is safe.
One of the problem of the old skool side of CTT is that they believe the latter is the easier thing to do

Purely playing devils advocate here but I'm PB chasing after investing in training and kit, what do I care if a youngster wants to race on the same bit of road ?

You don’t, but others care about the future of the sport. You don’t have to, as most likely in 10 years you will do something else, although it would be great if your club did care. As things stand, there aren’t 10 years left, meaning CTT will cease to exist before then.
So what after, if CTT goes bust? My guess is there will still be some form of testing, but likely to be a lot less and a lot more expensive and probably on selected courses, maybe closed to road traffic, things like Mallory park, or disused airfields

[L CC]

That's already happening.

https://teesside.ctt.org.uk/news/348-croft-10-mile-time-trial-series-dates-2022

[Notfromrugby]

That's already happening.

https://teesside.ctt.org.uk/news/348-croft-10-mile-time-trial-series-dates-2022

Yes, we have some round here too… to be fair, I like them more than the road stuff, but typically they involve a longer car journey and a heftier entry fee… although not as bad as other cycling events like sportive

[giropaul]

The point is not whether you feel safe or whether you are indeed safe, the point is can you get a youngster to race a TT on the A46? If the answer is no, then you have a problem…
It is easier to move to a more beginner friendly course, than it is to convince them that the A46 is safe.
One of the problem of the old skool side of CTT is that they believe the latter is the easier thing to do

Purely playing devils advocate here but I'm PB chasing after investing in training and kit, what do I care if a youngster wants to race on the same bit of road ?

PB chasing is the big issue. “ It’s a fast course”. Nowhere else in the world does anyone understand this. I’ve ridden TTs in France and Belgium , and it’s all about your finishing position, not your time.
They think British TT on dual carriageways are mad.

[Kim]

That's already happening.

https://teesside.ctt.org.uk/news/348-croft-10-mile-time-trial-series-dates-2022

That sort of thing makes more sense to me, at least for PB-chasing.  Safer, and fewer factors you can't control.  Like a boring version of a BHPC event.

[cygnet]

My helpers on the Mersey 24 said the roads felt very busy but I never noticed it when racing.

I've ridden, helped and marshalled on the 24hr cicuits and nothing about my experiences with traffic interactions in any of those three would put me off from riding it again.

[The training  etc is a big block to racing it for the next (8th) time though.

100s simililar but you have to start at Audax o'clock.

Not enough experience on a 12hr to comment, sadly. But my only attempt at the BBAR standard was based on a 20mph 12hr. Failed due to mechanicals.

[cygnet]

That's already happening.

https://teesside.ctt.org.uk/news/348-croft-10-mile-time-trial-series-dates-2022

That sort of thing makes more sense to me, at least for PB-chasing.  Safer, and fewer factors you can't control.  Like a boring version of a BHPC event.
[/quote
Out of idle interest, I tried to find out what the 24hr record at my local velodrome is. Best I can find is from around the 1920s and it's a long way out of the reach of hobby cycling...

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Be careful. Quite a few of the early records were paced, with the record riders drafting relays of cyclists or a motorcycle. Trying to match a paced record is a big ask.

[DuncanM]

That's already happening.

https://teesside.ctt.org.uk/news/348-croft-10-mile-time-trial-series-dates-2022

Yes, we have some round here too… to be fair, I like them more than the road stuff, but typically they involve a longer car journey and a heftier entry fee… although not as bad as other cycling events like sportive

If Banbury Star is local to you then Bicester Millennium might be too - they used to have a regular Wednesday night 10, with the odd 25 and 4 up, on the Weston on the Green aerodrome. I think they were a fiver. Dunno if it restarted after Covid (I've not been able to TT since then), but there used to be a real mix from kids to proper fast people (Charlie Quarterman holds the course record).

[Notfromrugby]

That's already happening.

https://teesside.ctt.org.uk/news/348-croft-10-mile-time-trial-series-dates-2022

Yes, we have some round here too… to be fair, I like them more than the road stuff, but typically they involve a longer car journey and a heftier entry fee… although not as bad as other cycling events like sportive

If Banbury Star is local to you then Bicester Millennium might be too - they used to have a regular Wednesday night 10, with the odd 25 and 4 up, on the Weston on the Green aerodrome. I think they were a fiver. Dunno if it restarted after Covid (I've not been able to TT since then), but there used to be a real mix from kids to proper fast people (Charlie Quarterman holds the course record).

Bicester is a stretch… Banbury is already a bit far, that’s why I am not a member… I’ve done a few of their races in 2020, before they switched to TLI

[felstedrider]

That's already happening.

https://teesside.ctt.org.uk/news/348-croft-10-mile-time-trial-series-dates-2022

That sort of thing makes more sense to me, at least for PB-chasing.  Safer, and fewer factors you can't control.  Like a boring version of a BHPC event.

Out of idle interest, I tried to find out what the 24hr record at my local velodrome is. Best I can find is from around the 1920s and it's a long way out of the reach of hobby cycling...

UMCA outdoor velodrome records look a bit more in line.  For my soon to be age category anyway.  Hoppo did the existing one at Scunthorpe.

24hourmaths did a test run at Welwyn for 4 (maybe 6 ?) hours and wasn’t enamoured enough to attempt the full 24. 

[drossall]

PB chasing is the big issue... Nowhere else in the world does anyone understand this.

Actually that would make cycling the unusual sport. Running, for example, appears to understand the idea of personal bests perfectly well, and world records, in any sport, are just the best personal best ever. They are in no way incompatible with trying to beat the current field.

For those of us who will never trouble the top half of the results sheet in any serious event, personal bests are a really good thing to go for. And everyone chasing a PB does it by trying to get a go on the fastest course/track/ski slope/whatever.

But I still haven't ridden a DC course in decades

[Notfromrugby]

PB chasing is the big issue... Nowhere else in the world does anyone understand this.

Actually that would make cycling the unusual sport. Running, for example, appears to understand the idea of personal bests perfectly well, and world records, in any sport, are just the best personal best ever. They are in no way incompatible with trying to beat the current field.

For those of us who will never trouble the top half of the results sheet in any serious event, personal bests are a really good thing to go for. And everyone chasing a PB does it by trying to get a go on the fastest course/track/ski slope/whatever.

But I still haven't ridden a DC course in decades

It has become an obsession for the absolute number… the under 50 for a 25… there is still a list of all the sub 50 rides, which now comprises many hundreds!
Obviously this leads to an unsustainable culture of fast courses, fast days and expensive marginal gains.
We need to discriminate between this obsession for the number, and Joe average trying to beat their PB over their local course, often by means of training harder and improving their position on the bike…
But ultimately, I think even at the bottom of the field, it should be about the pecking order… I don’t care to beat my PB if everybody else does…but I do care if I can post a better time than my direct competitors… it’s a race.

Running has an historic relationship with numbers… there are records of all sorts, the only record that matters in cycling is the Hour…
The 10 and 25 records in this country are a bit of a joke… gained on fast days on fast courses, often not reproducible conditions.
When I get passed by three lorries in a row on our local DC course, even I briefly exceed 30 mph… I just need a bigger number of lorries to keep going

[drossall]

Yes, it's not far from there to this, is it?

[Notfromrugby]

Yes, it's not far from there to this, is it?

Maybe not, but the current 10 mile record stands at somewhere close to 60 km/h... I can't help thinking that in the absence of heavy traffic, that number would be considerably lower.

[felstedrider]

Yes, it's not far from there to this, is it?

Maybe not, but the current 10 mile record stands at somewhere close to 60 km/h... I can't help thinking that in the absence of heavy traffic, that number would be considerably lower.

Also, though, set by a pro who went on to break every record between 10 and 100 (except the 30).  Right day, right conditions but exceptional talent.

[Notfromrugby]

Yes, it's not far from there to this, is it?

Maybe not, but the current 10 mile record stands at somewhere close to 60 km/h... I can't help thinking that in the absence of heavy traffic, that number would be considerably lower.

Also, though, set by a pro who went on to break every record between 10 and 100 (except the 30).  Right day, right conditions but exceptional talent.

Yes, although I think his best shot at the UCI TT worlds was a 9th... that in a year without Wiggins, Martin, Cancellara... I think Kyrienka won and Adriano Malori was second, so not the dream podium we have seen in other years...
But yes, at CTT level definitively an outstanding competitor...

[felstedrider]

Marcin passed me in a 100 once.  I did a 3:45 and it was like I was standing still.  Unfortunately he was DQ’d for going off course.  He broke the record on a different course a month later.

[Notfromrugby]

Marcin passed me in a 100 once.  I did a 3:45 and it was like I was standing still.  Unfortunately he was DQ’d for going off course.  He broke the record on a different course a month later.

The point is that when he did the 10 record, he broke it by 45 seconds... which is an immense amount, it means 4.5 seconds per mile, it's the difference between a top class time triallist and a decent domestique at the Tour. That can only happen if you find some "help" along the way... being that the perfect string of trucks, the perfect weather conditions with high temperature and high humidity but low pressure... all of which put the time on the shelves until someone else of a similar calibre finds an even better day.

[felstedrider]

Marcin passed me in a 100 once.  I did a 3:45 and it was like I was standing still.  Unfortunately he was DQ’d for going off course.  He broke the record on a different course a month later.

The point is that when he did the 10 record, he broke it by 45 seconds... which is an immense amount, it means 4.5 seconds per mile, it's the difference between a top class time triallist and a decent domestique at the Tour. That can only happen if you find some "help" along the way... being that the perfect string of trucks, the perfect weather conditions with high temperature and high humidity but low pressure... all of which put the time on the shelves until someone else of a similar calibre finds an even better day.

But this is the history of the sport.  Engers took 1.5 mins off the 25 record and it stood for 12 years.  After a couple of changes, Boardman took another 2 mins off and that record stood for 16 years.   You see a generational shift.   I think the difference for me was how good Marcin was over such a range of distances/times.   Training for a 10 and training for a 100 are different things.   How fast would he have been if he specialised ?