Riding an audax on a Brompton

[nashd]

A relative is thinking of buying a Brompton, and it’s got me wondering what they’re like to ride.  I’ve read comments saying that they’re okay for short rides up to 5 miles or so, but on the other hand some people tour on them, and at the other extreme ride 600k+ audaxes on them.  Are the long distance Bromptons typically modified in any way for comfort or efficiency, or are their riders simply out of the ordinary?

I recently rode 100k on an F-frame Moulton with 2 speed Duomatic hub, and certainly felt I was making things hard for myself!  It wasn’t too bad in some respects, but the 16” Kojak tyres seemed quite harsh and slow.

The reason for the Brompton is so that it can be carried around in a car boot, rather than taken on public transport or for commuting etc.  I’ve suggested some other alternatives such as a Moulton TSR, Birdy, or an Airnimal, but none fold as conveniently or as small as the Brompton.

[L CC]

We played 'my bike is heavier than yours' with Wilkyboy on the Holl & Back 600 recently. We won, but it was damn close.
Our bike is a steel tandem. His is a Brompton.

Put him on a proper bike & I reckon we'd never see him.

Are the long distance Bromptons typically modified in any way for comfort or efficiency, or are their riders simply out of the ordinary?

For him, the second, I think.

[marcusjb]

Above is a Brompton on PBP with a few modifications for the distance.

Wilkyboy has just ridden his second set of SR rides this season on his - I am sure he'll be along at some point to describe the changes he's made (and I don't think he's had an entirely painless journey!).

Personally, I have ridden 200km on mine - wouldn't rush to do it again!

Whatever you can think of, someone will have done it on a Brompton I am sure of it!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I've done 200km on my near-stock Brommie and would want to change a few things if I were going further. Using cycle-specific clothing, rather than normal clothes, would be high on the list.

tkatzir occasionally OTP has ridden PBP, LEL and Mille Miglia on his fairly-modified B. It might be worth asking him for specific details. He is a decent rider on big wheels but not super-strong.

[jogler]

600

Isawwotudidthere
 

[alexb]

Way back in 2007, I got completly whipped by a guy on a Brompton who dropped me for dust during PBP.
It was utterly horrible, dark and wet, my lights really weren't giving me the info I needed about the road surface, combined with a lot of spray on my glasses and he passed me on a descent and left me for dust.

Given how crap Brompton brakes are supposed to be, that was a pretty confident bit of riding.

I think it all comes down to how comfortable you feel on your bike over a long distance.
On Audaxes you see all manner of bikes.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

PBP07 was Tal aka tkatzir. Modern Brompton brakes aren't crap, unless you have zero hand strength.

[nashd]

Thanks for all the info.  It’d be interesting to hear from someone who chooses to ride long distance on a Brompton.

I saw a photo from Holl & Back which looked like it contained a Brompton, but wasn’t sure if my eyes had deceived me!

I suppose you can ride just about anything, but it seems strange that some folk are adamant that the bike is only suitable for short rides.  I spoke with one Brompton rider who looked horrified at the thought of riding it further than 2 miles!  I was half thinking about buying one for myself, but I’m just not sure.  I had a short ride up and down the street, and while it felt okay, I wasn’t impressed by the feel of the brakes or the gear shifters, plus the bikes are expensive, especially if you start looking at the ‘superlight’ upgrade. 

On a related note, I remember reading LWaB’s article in the Moulton magazine about riding PBP on a Stowaway, and finding it extremely interesting but not particularly impressive…  However, after riding my Moulton of similar spec, I’m now in total awe of his achievement!  Perhaps you have to be a really strong rider to be able to ride the likes of a Brompton or Moulton on these longer and more demanding rides.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I'm not a strong rider, even more so in the hills. Given the number of folk riding fixed, having 2 gears and a freewheel is easy.

Tyres make a big difference, particularly for little wheels. I chose Brompton yellow label as anti-puncture strips usually give crap rolling resistance. Unfortunately they aren't made anymore.

[nashd]

That’s strange – I don’t consider myself a strong rider (anything but!), but I used to ride audaxes on fixed wheel (now on recumbent) and was able to ride up anything with a 65” gear, and get around most courses on 86”.  I’m not sure what gears the Moulton has (I think it might be around 50” and 70”) but it feels like I’m putting in a lot more effort yet going nowhere fast.  I thought it might be a combination of losses in the Duomatic hub, the small wheels and tyres, and possibly me not having found the best fore-aft position for the saddle.  Have you compared 16" Kojaks with the faster tyres you mentioned?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The 349 Kojaks seem slightly slower than the B Green tyres in roll down tests. Marathons are slugs compared to both.

[Biggsy]

I opted for Kojaks for the low weight and small diameter to further reduce the gearing.  But I'd expect larger tyres to roll faster even sometimes when they are no more flexible, so I'm thinking about changing.

25 miles on a Brompton feels like 35 or 40 miles on a "normal" bike to me.  I chose a Brompton for the quick and small fold for use on busy public transport (including the London Tube), but the friend in question may not need such a compact package for a car boot, and they shouldn't mind spending a couple of minutes of folding/unfolding/preparing when not rushing for a train or bus, rather than needing it done in seconds, Brompton-style.

[rogerzilla]

I quite often do 100km on a Brompton.  You forget about the frame flex quite quickly and the weight is OK.   The Kojaks are not fast tyres, although the folding ones are light; the old Stelvios felt much better.  Main problem is vibration and rolling resistance on any coarse-grained road surface.  Also, the riding position is unlikely to be optimal because the reach and drop aren't adjustable.  I'm quite lucky in that the S-type with extended seatpost gives me approximately the right drop, although the bars are still a bit close to the saddle.

In the end, i only do it because I can chuck it on the train at the end.

[duncan]

I did RRtY on my Brompton a few years back and I found it fine. It was my only bike at the time and anything with big wheels just felt odd. I'm not a super fast rider and I suspect most people who ride long distances on a Brompton are only different in the head...

My bike started life as a stock S6 with M-type bars, but over that year I made a few changes to it:

- Fitted a Speed Drive
- Added Cane Creek bar ends
- Fitted a Brooks saddle
- Added a SON dynamo and Edulux front light.

I rode one of my 200s on a friend's stock S6 with my Brooks saddle and the main thing I noticed was the lack of bar ends.

If you want to make a Brompton comfy for that kind of distance I would say that the Cane Creek bar ends are definitely the most important change - I lost feeling in my pinkies for about a month after my first 200k without them. They make it much more pleasant as they give you some different positions to hold on without getting in the way of the fold because they don't stick out too far (projecting as they do both forwards and backwards).

The Brooks saddle is pretty much a must too, or at least not the original Brompton rubber one.

The speed drive is nice to get the most out of downhill sections if you don't mind going that fast on a tiny bike (I got it just above 80kph, which in hindsight was pretty scary when the bike got the wobbles).

For the winter rides I used by Brompton touring pannier for flapjacks and clothing, and the Edulux light was the only thing I could find which mounted nicely without fouling it (and even then I had to take the switch off the top and leave it permanently on daylight sensor).

I found it perfectly fine for the rides I did, the longest of which was a 300k solo Perm of The Dean.

Cheers,

Duncan

PS These days I have two kids which means I have another tow-bike and I don't get out on long bike rides anywhere near as often as I'd like.

[nashd]

Thanks, Duncan. 

I was able to take a demo Brompton 6-speed with H handlebars on a 25 mile ride last night, and can’t say I enjoyed the experience too much!  I thought the low speed handling was great, and I also liked the front bag.  However, the riding position wasn’t comfortable for me, and the saddle was dire, even with padded shorts.  I was thinking that a Brooks plus bar-ends would help, so was thinking along the same lines as you.  The wide jump between gears was also a problem – I know changing both levers together for some gears probably helps, but even so, going into top gear felt like hitting a wall, and by 25mph the wind resistance made me back off anyhow.  With a tailwind I was more comfortable at around 19mph in 5th, and I think I used gear 4 into the wind, and gears 1 & 2 up a steep hill.  I later found that the middle gear on the hub gear is ‘direct’ drive, so that may have been why I settled for that gear as being easier than top gear.  I found myself backing off on effort – it just seemed too difficult to go any faster.

I know I’ve only ridden the bike once, and it’s quite different from what I’m used to riding, but I’m not sure I would want to ride it too far for pleasure.  The person who’d be buying it isn’t a cyclist, but would use it for exercise, but I wonder if the ride quality would put them off longer rides.  However, they’re sold on the compact size of the folded bike.  I think it might be worth looking at some alternatives – maybe the Birdy.

[Biggsy]

I agree that a Brompton isn't ideal for long distance, but you're not judging it fairly without considering the alternative handlebar options and also actually using the gears optimally.  You catch less wind with the S (Sport) bars, and yes you should change both gear shifters at once for a half step.  Anyway, there are experienced cyclists here happy with even the 3-speed and single-speed options, let alone the 6-speed.

[nashd]

Yes, if I were buying a Brompton I’d probably go for the S bars with bar-ends and a Brooks, and I’d also consider the single-speed.  However, the person buying prefers the H6.  I suppose it depends on what’s important for a rider, and what compromises are acceptable.  On the one hand it would be nice if it rode more like a regular bike, but it does have the advantage of a quick and compact fold.  At the back of my mind today is the thought that for Brompton prices I’d like something which rode differently. 
 
Is there a technique for making a 2-shifter gear change?  The hub gear typically needs you to ease off the pressure when changing, but the derailleur needs you to pedal.

Also, I found it a bit twitchy when honking up hills.  I tried moving my position slightly, and pedaling and moving as smoothly as possible, but nothing really helped.  I think carrying some luggage in the front bag helped dampen the effect.  Does it just take a little time to adjust to the bike, or is better to remain seated?

I see that Ben at Kinetics makes an 8-speed conversion – it’s said to give a wider gear range than the 6-speed, plus it uses a twist shifter.  I think the downsides are that the SA 8-speed hub is supposedly slightly less efficient, and it also weighs a fair bit more (I think around 700g over the 6-speed, although I might be wrong with that).  I’d be interested to know if adding the 8-speed conversion to a basic Brompton might be a good idea.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The Brompton derailleur is spring loaded in both directions and even if you move the lever with the pedals stationary, will change nicely when you start pedalling.

Yes, front luggage steadies things up a bit but it is mainly adapting to the quicker steering that improves things. After riding a Brommie for a while, any big-wheeled bike steers ponderously.

[nashd]

Thanks - that's very useful to know. 

[Biggsy]

Sometimes I stop pedalling, sometimes I ease off the pressure but still pedal while changing both shifters at the same time, or change one fractionally before the other.  I don't have to back-pedal like I did with ancient SA gears.  I find the shifting sequence slightly annoying, but still I'm grateful to have the extra gears.  It's a reasonable compromise between efficiency, compactness, weight and price.

Personally, I'd put a full-size bike in/on the car if I had a car.  It's only because I don't have a car that I got a Brompton!   I got mine for 15 to 30 mile recreational rides in the country (getting there and back by public transport), and possible future commuting.

[Zipperhead]

Yes, front luggage steadies things up a bit but it is mainly adapting to the quicker steering that improves things. After riding a Brommie for a while, any big-wheeled bike steers ponderously.

After I've been out on the tandem, when I ride my Brompton back from the garage the difference in steering response is scary at first, but after a very short distance you adapt to it and don't notice it anymore.

[midpoint]

I did the 80k Pedal for Scotland route last September. 5h40 - and thr 40 was waiting in the starting queue.

Three gears were enough, though I might have said differently if asked around the climb from Linlithgow!

Data from MMR: http://www.mapmyride.com/workout/178408015

[Bromptoneer]

I've done loads of 100 miles + rides on my Bromptons, but I always end up upgrading the gears because I live in a very hilly area and live on top of a great big hill.

I now have an H6L( but BSR and Schlumpf MD as the double changing every gear got on my nerves) and an S4L (double front ring) and whilst I find the H comfortable I think I'll probably ride the S4L for most of my rides now as I prefer the efficient 2 speed hub.

I'm 6 ft and 100kg and have no issues with the bikes at all. I do, however, wonder if I'll be able to carry on throughout the rough winters we keep getting up here now.

[hellymedic]

It appears HK and LW&B of this parish are doing LEL on Bromptons. HK has had tyre trouble & Tweets she now has a new 20" tyre for Casper.
I thought Brompton wheels were 16"...

[Peter]

Parishioner wilkyboy is also doing LEL on a Brompton.  He also did Yr Elenydd on it.  The guy can ride!