Powertap questions

[inc]

I am seriously considering getting a Powertap. I think the Elite + will do all I need, the manual says some functions are missing from the cpu display but Cyclepowermeters.com tell me they will upgrade the firmware FOC so it has the same functions as the others. I think my biggest problem may be software as I don't use Windows or even have access to a Windows PC. It looks like the Power Agent software is Java and  works OK with Linux as does GoldenCheetah, any feedback on these applications or any others would be welcome.

thanks

[Greenbank]

An Elite+ in a wheel with a Garmin 705 is only £95 more than an Elite+ in a wheel with a CycleOps headunit. It's tempting isn't it. Kill several birds with one stone and all that...

I'll upload my TCX files that come from my Garmin 705 with Power data from my PowerTap.

That way you can download and install both GoldenCheetah and Saris' PowerAgent software (both available for Linux as you say) and see what it looks like with real data.

http://www.greenbank.org/misc/705history.zip

WKO+ is Windows only (but they do a 14 day free trial download. I'm waiting until I've got more data before I try this out).

You might be able to persuade someone with a PowerTap headunit to part with a bunch of data files that come from the Saris headunit.

[inc]

Are you saying that GoldenCheetah and Saris' PowerAgent will both download from the Garmin using the usb via Linux.  A Garmin also gives altitude which I would like. I know I can use gpsbabel to access the .tcx files and I think they now have support for the Garmin 500

[Greenbank]

Are you saying that GoldenCheetah and Saris' PowerAgent will both download from the Garmin using the usb via Linux.  A Garmin also gives altitude which I would like. I know I can use gpsbabel to access the .tcx files and I think they now have support for the Garmin 500

Yes. The 705 appears as an external HDD (well, two, one for the internal memory and one for the micro-SD card).

GC and PowerAgent just read the .tcx files that get dumped into Garmin\History\*.tcx on the first internal drive. There's no need to import from the actual device either, you can import the copies of the files above into both programs in exactly the same way.

The 705 doesn't use ANT+ to talk to the computer, it uses the bog standard USB connection, and data are transferred as files. No special USB drivers above and beyond the standard 'external HDD' USB drivers.

ANT+ is only used for collecting HRM and Power data. (Although it can also be used to send rides from one 705 to another wirelessly).

Not sure how the 500 communicates with the computers. They do look lovely (only £150 at Handtec).

Just checked Garmin's side. The Edge 500 uses a USB connection too.

I guess it comes down to mapping. If you want mapping then get an Edge 705. If you don't then a £150 Edge 500 looks like a bargain as you'll get HRM, Power, GPS (including elevation), all in one package.

[simonp]

What's the Edge's batter life like?  Powertap head unit is 300h on a CR2032.

[inc]

Thanks for the info, I have just spoken with cyclepowermeters and it looks like the Garmin 500 needs Garmin software first before it will go into GoldenCheetah or Saris' PowerAgent. I need to check if gpsbabel will do the job.

[Greenbank]

What's the Edge's batter life like?  Powertap head unit is 300h on a CR2032.

Edge 705 does about 15h "typical". Less with backlight, etc.

Edge 500 is quoted at 18h.

Charges via USB and several people have knocked up a non-data¹ USB cable with an external battery pack (such as a PowerMonkey) to keep them going longer than 15h. Several people here use them for Audaxing, including LEL.

I've also done a 200km Audax using my Forerunner 405 (8 hour battery life with GPS on) by charging it with a battery pack at controls.

1. A standard data enabled USB cable will put the unit into external HDD mode and stop it working as a GPS. A cable with certain pins grounded will power the unit but not put it into external HDD mode and it'll keep on rocking...

[Greenbank]

Thanks for the info, I have just spoken with cyclepowermeters and it looks like the Garmin 500 needs Garmin software first before it will go into GoldenCheetah or Saris' PowerAgent. I need to check if gpsbabel will do the job.

Really? Both tools take in the .TCX files that the Edge 705 creates without any adjustment. From what I'd read I thought the Edge 500 creates the very same format .TCX files.

[EDIT]

Ah, no. Edge 500 emits .FIT files.

Looks like GoldenCheetah has been patched to handle FIT files though (although there may be some niggling problems).

Golden Cheetah discussion forum on Edge 500

[inc]

I'll upload my TCX files that come from my Garmin 705 with Power data from my PowerTap.

That way you can download and install both GoldenCheetah and Saris' PowerAgent software (both available for Linux as you say) and see what it looks like with real data.

http://www.greenbank.org/misc/705history.zip

Thanks for your files it interesting to see how GoldenCheetah displays the data. It also displays some of my .hmr files. I tried for ages to install version 1.3.0 without any joy. However 1.2.0 installed no problem. You are a Unix expert any idea what the problem may be. When I try to untar it I get the following message

Code: [Select]

ian@sid:~/gc$ tar xzvf GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86.gz
tar: This does not look like a tar archive
tar: Skipping to next header
tar: Exiting with failure status due to previous errors
ian@sid:~/gc$

I was just doing the above in my userspace but have tried it from /tmp as they suggest as a user and root with the same error. I have posted on their mailing list but no reply yet.

If I use Ark it unpacks the executable but clicking on it just prompts for an application to open it. As you said elsewhere they are working on .fit files as are gpsbabel. I have been looking at the Joule 2 it has altitude and a lot of useful power display options it also appears Saris are releasing code to Golden Cheetah helping development which appeals more to me than Garmin ignoring Linux completely.

[simonp]

I downloaded the file to windows and unpacked using winzip, and it contains ELF near the start, which does mean it's an executable.

It probably doesn't have the correct permissions set:

simon@librarian:~/tmp$ file GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86
GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped

So it's an x86 Linux executable, not a tar file, which is what I suspected.

Edit: to make it runnable you need to chmod +x the file

[inc]

So it's an x86 Linux executable, not a tar file, which is what I suspected.

Edit: to make it runnable you need to chmod +x the file

Thanks simon, the downloaded file is GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86.gz which properties say is a is a gzip file but that should have a .tgz suffix The earlier version GoldenCheetah_1.2.0_Linux_x86.tgz has this .tgz which extracts and works OK I have tried changing .gz to .tgz but it makes no difference. I have also tried uncompressing the file in my userspace which I will have permissions for but still won't work. It is just not extracting. As I said before version 1.2.0 works fine.

Google says
If you have GNU tar (Linux system) you can use the z option directly: to extract
$ tar xvzf file.tar.gz
$ tar xvzf file.tgz

which is the command being used

[fuaran]

For software, you could try SportTracks. It is Windows software, but apparently its possible to run it on Linux with Mono. And it seems it can do various stuff with power analysis, though I've not tried that myself.
Though it seems the Edge 500 is not yet supported. It uses some sort of FIT files, and which are currently only supported by Garmin's own software. More details here: View topic - Thinking about an Edge 500? Think twice.

[simonp]

So it's an x86 Linux executable, not a tar file, which is what I suspected.

Edit: to make it runnable you need to chmod +x the file

Thanks simon, the downloaded file is GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86.gz which properties say is a is a gzip file but that should have a .tgz suffix The earlier version GoldenCheetah_1.2.0_Linux_x86.tgz has this .tgz which extracts and works OK I have tried changing .gz to .tgz but it makes no difference. I have also tried uncompressing the file in my userspace which I will have permissions for but still won't work. It is just not extracting. As I said before version 1.2.0 works fine.

Google says
If you have GNU tar (Linux system) you can use the z option directly: to extract
$ tar xvzf file.tar.gz
$ tar xvzf file.tgz

which is the command being used

you need:

gzip -d GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86.gz

A .gz file is not the same thing as a .tgz file

Then chmod +x GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86

[amaferanga]

For software, you could try SportTracks. It is Windows software, but apparently its possible to run it on Linux with Mono. And it seems it can do various stuff with power analysis, though I've not tried that myself.
Though it seems the Edge 500 is not yet supported. It uses some sort of FIT files, and which are currently only supported by Garmin's own software. More details here: View topic - Thinking about an Edge 500? Think twice.

I have a Forerunner 310XT and use Golden Cheetah for analysis.  To import I first upload from my device to Garmin Training Center and then export the .tcx for import to Golden Cheetah.  IMO its really not a big deal and as I understand it this is all you'd have to do with the Edge 500.

[inc]

you need:

gzip -d GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86.gz

A .gz file is not the same thing as a .tgz file

Then chmod +x GoldenCheetah_1.3.0_Linux_x86

Thanks again Simon, I knew they were different but had it in my head they had made a mistake packaging not changed the type of package. Ark was opening it fine all along it just needed the permission changing.     

Ian

[fuaran]

I have a Forerunner 310XT and use Golden Cheetah for analysis.  To import I first upload from my device to Garmin Training Center and then export the .tcx for import to Golden Cheetah.  IMO its really not a big deal and as I understand it this is all you'd have to do with the Edge 500.

But that requires using Garmin Training Center, which probably doesn't work on Linux.

Also, there is a more direct way to import from the 310XT (on Windows):
The ANT Agent automatically downloads the data from it, and saves it as TCX files in the "%APPDATA%\GARMIN\Devices\number\History" directory (where number is the device ID). So you can just import from there, without using Training Center.

[inc]

You might be able to persuade someone with a PowerTap headunit to part with a bunch of data files that come from the Saris headunit.

I have been playing with your files ( Garmin) in both GoldenCheetah and Power Agent 7 . It would be good to get hold of a couple of simple rides ( no intervals) from a Power tap cpu. Any kind soul got a couple I could have to play with.

Thanks

[simonp]

You might be able to persuade someone with a PowerTap headunit to part with a bunch of data files that come from the Saris headunit.

I have been playing with your files ( Garmin) in both GoldenCheetah and Power Agent 7 . It would be good to get hold of a couple of simple rides ( no intervals) from a Power tap cpu. Any kind soul got a couple I could have to play with.

Thanks

You could have all of my data back to 2007. Easier that than picking them out. . Are all in wko+ format can you use those in gc?

[inc]

You could have all of my data back to 2007. Easier that than picking them out. . Are all in wko+ format can you use those in gc?

Thanks Simon, that would be great, it looks like wko+ is on the import file list. You could just email ( it is in my profile) them direct if it is any easier.

[simonp]

You could have all of my data back to 2007. Easier that than picking them out. . Are all in wko+ format can you use those in gc?

Thanks Simon, that would be great, it looks like wko+ is on the import file list. You could just email ( it is in my profile) them direct if it is any easier.

Your email is hidden - you need to untick the "hide from public" option for that to work.  Or just PM me your email and I'll zip 'em up and send them.

[inc]

Your email is hidden - you need to untick the "hide from public" option for that to work.  Or just PM me your email and I'll zip 'em up and send them.

I have just sent my email, I have tried to change my profile but it says I am using wrong password but I am not, another mystery.

[simonp]

Your email is hidden - you need to untick the "hide from public" option for that to work.  Or just PM me your email and I'll zip 'em up and send them.

I have just sent my email, I have tried to change my profile but it says I am using wrong password but I am not, another mystery.

I've sent the data - it's quite large, even with compression it's about 2.7Mbytes.

[inc]

I've sent the data - it's quite large, even with compression it's about 2.7Mbytes.

Thanks simon, I have just tried a few and they load up fine, lots of data to play with.

[inc]

Well I have raided the piggybank and ordered an Elite+ powertap hub with a joule2 head, Bob at Cyclepowermeters  gave me a good deal. It is just the hub ( didn't want a Mavic rim) but Bob  gave me the spoke lengths for the Ambrosio  rim I am going to use and I have now  got the spokes from my LBC, so roll on Tuesday. I looked at the two Garmin CPUs The Edge 500 looks good but reports are not that positive, I didn't particularly want gps functions and they do have problems with some power functions ( no NP) and no real Linux support, Robert Lipe developer of Gpsbabel say of the .fit format " It's a nutty complicated format" and he knows as much as most about gps files. .Saris do support Linux with PowerAgent ( Java) with the latest version 7.5.1.10  now ( yesterday) supporting  .fit files but overall it was down to the Elite+  head, upgraded to SL spec FOC or the Joule2 with altitude and much more.  Golden Cheetah also deserves supporting as it is being very actively  developed. I asked on their mailing list about support for  s710 .srd files and was asked to submit a feature request, that feature is now included, quite impressive, I think greenbank has also had features added.

[amaferanga]

Well I have raided the piggybank and ordered an Elite+ powertap hub with a joule2 head, Bob at Cyclepowermeters  gave me a good deal. It is just the hub ( didn't want a Mavic rim) but Bob  gave me the spoke lengths for the Ambrosio  rim I am going to use and I have now  got the spokes from my LBC, so roll on Tuesday. I looked at the two Garmin CPUs The Edge 500 looks good but reports are not that positive, I didn't particularly want gps functions and they do have problems with some power functions ( no NP) and no real Linux support, Robert Lipe developer of Gpsbabel say of the .fit format " It's a nutty complicated format" and he knows as much as most about gps files. .Saris do support Linux with PowerAgent ( Java) with the latest version 7.5.1.10  now ( yesterday) supporting  .fit files but overall it was down to the Elite+  head, upgraded to SL spec FOC or the Joule2 with altitude and much more.  Golden Cheetah also deserves supporting as it is being very actively  developed. I asked on their mailing list about support for  s710 .srd files and was asked to submit a feature request, that feature is now included, quite impressive, I think greenbank has also had features added.

You get NP from your analysis software.  I can see no reason at all to have NP displayed on the head unit like the Joule does (unless of course you don't have a computer with which to analyse your ride).  Personally I find having a head unit that does power and GPS quite nice for post-ride analysis.