Author Topic: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...  (Read 6061 times)

rogerzilla

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #1 on: 06 April, 2008, 08:40:18 am »
I didn't know he was an advocate of Martin Luther King.
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FatBloke

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #2 on: 06 April, 2008, 10:17:38 am »
I would have liked him a lot more if it wasn't for his vocal support of the gun lobby.  :-\
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Adam

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #3 on: 06 April, 2008, 11:20:49 am »
He made some good films, but (and this may surprise you) politically I can't say I found much to like about him. I found him too right wing in later life.  :o

He dropped even lower in my estimation after seeing the Michael Moore interview with him.



Edit - he seemed like a good Democrat in the 1960's.   :-\
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Really Ancien

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #4 on: 06 April, 2008, 01:19:46 pm »
One suspects that his appeal was strongest to gay men and to straight women. His tendency to play Patriarchs always meant that he was a target for anti-establishment feeling, especially in a period uneasy about the authoritarian father figure. He did look good though. Anyone got his wigmaker's address?


Damon.

Slim

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #5 on: 07 April, 2008, 01:47:48 pm »
I didn't know he was an advocate of Martin Luther King.

I was about to write him off as just another right wing fascist until I read about his (peaceful) activism - at least in his earlier days. Still doesn't excuse his crap about guns though.


Adam

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #6 on: 12 April, 2008, 02:16:53 pm »
You start off all radical & idealistic when young, then turn right wing when you get older.

Wowbagger - there's still time for you to repent, and see the light.   ;)
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #7 on: 12 April, 2008, 08:19:20 pm »
You start off all radical & idealistic when young, then turn right wing when you get older.

Wowbagger - there's still time for you to repent, and see the light.   ;)

Wowbagger with guns?  Run for the hills!
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #8 on: 12 April, 2008, 09:05:20 pm »
John Charles Carter doesn't quite have the same ring does it?

Wowbagger

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #9 on: 12 April, 2008, 10:14:31 pm »
You start off all radical & idealistic when young, then turn right wing when you get older.

Wowbagger - there's still time for you to repent, and see the light.   ;)

I remember being told this when I was in the sixth form politics class - not by the teacher, but by fellow-pupils.

I didn't see why it should be true then, and I certainly don't now. I think that as I have become older and more cynical if anything I have moved further to the left.

I do remember seeing a very amusing cartoon, I think in Private Eye, in which the caption was something along the lines of "I do think these Bader-Meinhof reunion dinner parties are lovely evenings out, dahlink."
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border-rider

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #10 on: 12 April, 2008, 10:57:08 pm »

I didn't see why it should be true then, and I certainly don't now.

Nor me.  I suspect it's people who when young  think that being a lefty is morally sounder, but actually are fundamentally right-wing.  As they get older they just stop trying and revert to their true selves - or maybe learn to be happy with who they really are.

People go the other way too - John Bercow being an example.  When I knew him he was an obnoxious crypto fascist FCS shit, with a "hang Nelson Mandela" T-shirt.  He's grown up into a sensible, thoughtful, liberal one-nation Tory

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #11 on: 13 April, 2008, 03:02:49 am »
My favourite memory of Charlton Heston is actually the reference from the first "Men in Black" movie, where Vincent D'Onofrio's character says "You can have my gun, when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" and the alien replies "Your proposal is acceptable!"
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Adam

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #12 on: 14 April, 2008, 07:07:22 am »
You start off all radical & idealistic when young, then turn right wing when you get older.

Wowbagger - there's still time for you to repent, and see the light.   ;)

I remember being told this when I was in the sixth form politics class - not by the teacher, but by fellow-pupils.

I didn't see why it should be true then, and I certainly don't now. I think that as I have become older and more cynical if anything I have moved further to the left.


Interesting.  I had the opposite experience in the sixth form.  The other pupils & the teacher mainly had a left wing bias and all told me I'd alter my political views when I got older.

I'd agree about me being more cynical  though.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

border-rider

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #13 on: 14 April, 2008, 07:17:49 am »

I'd agree about me being more cynical  though.

I think cynicism is the key.  Most lefties tend to be reasonably idealistic and believe in trying to make a fairer world.  Most people of the right (as far as I can see) reckon the world's fundamentally unfair and the best approach is to accept that everyone is in it for themselves and to make sure that a system based on that gives a reasonable outcome.

Maybe most people do become more cynical, and hence more rightwing with age.  It's certainly  the case that we all see things less in black-and-white as we get older, but that's actually made me less cynical; I can see that most people are just trying to muddle along and that most people are pretty decent if they're given the space to be. No heroes and baddies (or at least, not many) just people.  Comrade. ;)

Adam

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #14 on: 14 April, 2008, 09:38:37 am »
Good points Mal.

I don't think many people (unless they're truely gifted or insane) think they can change the world when they're young, but I think you accept your place in the world.  However these days, there's more of an acceptance that little steps taken by a lot of people can make a difference in the long run - recycling for instance. 

Evolution not revolution.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Wowbagger

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #15 on: 14 April, 2008, 09:53:09 am »
I was in my early teens in 1968. which was a period of great optmism. I thought that things would improve systematically as people took more power for themselves.

I've been consistently disappointed in that the progress made has been largely undone and there is, I think, far less power in the hands of ordinary people, and far more with governments and big business, than there was 40 years ago.
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border-rider

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #16 on: 14 April, 2008, 09:57:47 am »
I don't think many people (unless they're truely gifted or insane) think they can change the world when they're young

I dunno...I think a lot of idealistic young people do think they can change the world - I know I did* - and it can be a rude awakening when they realise that they can't.  I can't help feeling, though, that it's better to have had that optimism than to have been cynical and pessimistic from an early age.  If the optimism survives, so much the better.   

*I prefer to consider myself truely gifted...  :)


andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #17 on: 14 April, 2008, 10:13:11 am »
The world is smaller when you're young.  The older I get, the more I see how deeply patterns of behaviour are dug in, and how reluctant people are to change.  Mind you, I also think that individuals are more wonderful, and society less so.  Cynicism and an understanding of shades of grey can cohabit :(

I'm still deeply heartened that we're a polite enough society that the idea of going armed is wacky.  Nice cup of team, vicar?
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Charlotte

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #18 on: 14 April, 2008, 10:22:25 am »
Y'see, much as Chuck H's ramblings in Bowling For Columbine made me very uncomfortable, I still have to waft gently down onto the "right to bear arms" side of the fence.

I'm so going to get stick for saying this on here, so go gently with me please...

I believe that, done properly, a legally armed citizenry is a Good Thing.

*stands back*

*watches touch paper burn*
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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #19 on: 14 April, 2008, 10:29:22 am »
Y'see, much as Chuck H's ramblings in Bowling For Columbine made me very uncomfortable, I still have to waft gently down onto the "right to bear arms" side of the fence.

I'm so going to get stick for saying this on here, so go gently with me please...

I believe that, done properly, a legally armed citizenry is a Good Thing.

*stands back*

*watches touch paper burn*

Ah, but there's the problem. Define 'done properly'. I don't think it's possible, but I'm prepared to listen...  ;D
Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #20 on: 14 April, 2008, 10:29:45 am »
No need to hide under the table m'dear, we already have legally armed citizenery. 

P'raps 10% of houses out here in the sticks will have a licenced shotgun / rifle.  It was tightened up about 15 years ago so everything has to be kept in a gun cabinet, no repeating rifles etc.  Before then, most farmers kept the shotgun by the back door just to get that bloody rabbit / crow / pikey in the orchard.   

Do you mean we should be able to pack heat walking round the city? Would make it easier to deal with chuggers, I suppose.

Charlotte

  • Dissolute libertine
  • Here's to ol' D.H. Lawrence...
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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #21 on: 14 April, 2008, 10:54:59 am »
Here's the thing.  I know it's an old chessnut, but if you're a scrote who wants to own a firearm for the purposes of criminality, you're highly unlikely get a legal one, are you?

I'm not saying that firearm possession should be available to all.  Of course there should be checks and balances.

But I'm really quite convinced that responsible firearm ownership is a Good Thing.  You only need a very small percentage of ordinary people to be properly trained in how to safely and legally keep and use a firearm in the home before nobody other than the state knows where the guns are.  Similarly, if the bad guys had no idea whether or not the person they were about to mug was an ordinary citizen with a concealed carry licence, it would make people think a lot harder before committing crimes against the person.

Not everyone wants to own or carry a weapon.  Not everybody is fit to do so.  Even if they are, it's a hell of a responsibility to carry a deadly weapon and to take the choice that in extremis, you'd be prepared to use it to take life in order to defend life.  It's a judgment call on the part of the proper authorities to say who is unfit to be given a license and then a judgment call on the part of the individual as to whether or not they can bear the responsibility.  But that's not to say that some people won't think that responsibility is worth the benefits for the individual and for society as a whole.

It's a bit like cycling.  Sure, every so often, someone on a bike is going to get hit and maybe even killed by a car.  That's horrible and it's seemingly quite avoidable.  But is it reason enough to deny the massive good that can come of the population owning and using what are no more than sophisticated tools?
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border-rider

Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #22 on: 14 April, 2008, 11:10:03 am »
Or, guns become easier to get and all sorts of people get them. Cue big increase in slayings as Friday night punch-ups and kickings escalate into drunken gun battles.

Cue also sudden incidence of armed road rage incidents; WVMs taking pot shots at each other on the M25, and the possibility that if you give the finger to that sales rep in the Vectra he'll pop a cap in yo' ass.

I have friends who cycle in Texas - where road rage is much, much rarer than here - and that's pretty-much what happens.  They've been shot at a lot on the bike.  Red neck target practice. If it happened here, now, you'd get an armed response squad and it'd be a major incident.  Make guns commonplace and that won't happen

No, ta. We're not in Switzerland, Dorothy.

Adam

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Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #23 on: 14 April, 2008, 11:16:10 am »
The trouble with your argument Charlotte is that if I am armed (having been been deemed responsible), and end up getting mugged, if I then try and shoot the mugger, it's possible I might miss and hit a bystander, or the gun might be taken off me and used against other people. 

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: I guess we can have Charlton Heston's gun now...
« Reply #24 on: 14 April, 2008, 11:23:22 am »
The arguments are pretty well-trod.  Arguments that escalate into violence can now escalate into deadly violence; White Van Man gets a cannon as well as trusted folks; I'd sure as hell have sucked a bullet by now in one of my depressive funks.

On the other hand, gun sport is fun.  Shooting things is fun.  But overall, I'm a strong advocate of not having an armed society.  It's not a police society, it's at best a cowed society.

This may not apply to other countries, but it's how I see the situation in the UK.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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