Author Topic: [LEL17] Training. How far to go?  (Read 17532 times)

[LEL17] Training. How far to go?
« on: 29 December, 2016, 10:29:20 am »
A bit new to structured training and past attempts have left me a bit broken. :facepalm:

It's the end of the year and sign up is in a few days so I'm working on my training strategy, looks good until I get to the step up to 600, thought it would be good to have an SR under my belt before LEL. Timings for a 600 are either too soon or too close to the start not sure if I dare cross the start line at LEL without the experience of 600. Has anyone had the experience of starting a long event without having done a 600 before hand and what was the out come, I'm not supper fit and I'm returning after years of inactivity so supper fit people look away now.   ;D
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mattc

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #1 on: 29 December, 2016, 11:21:50 am »
There will be a bunch of replies listing the people who have ridden LEL (quickly) as their first Audax. I'm not sure that tells you very much, but I do think that "Not riding a 600" should be low on your list of worries. (For one thing, if your 600 goes really well you might learn nothing and get cocky!)

You'll probably learn more from a tough 400 than an "average" 600. If you're really dedicated you could simulate the long events; maybe do a tough/long ride to get to and/or from a 300/400.

The structure of LEL is quite different to a UK600 in many ways - completeing a SR is certainly good experience, but not essential.  :thumbsup:
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marcusjb

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #2 on: 29 December, 2016, 11:30:58 am »
^ all dat

What a 600 does expose you to that you may not have experienced is the back-to-back days thing.  You do not need to ride an event to experience that.  You don't need to ride a 600km for it even.  The important lessons (in my mind) are more about the understanding of what it's like to get back on a bike the day after a long day.

A couple of good 250km days back to back (or 300/200 for example) will give you some ideas on what it is like to wake up a bit stiff and sore, but then to realise that everything generally comes good again (at some point in the day!).

Matt's suggestion of riding to/from a 300/400 is also a good one.

Back to back days also serve as good lessons in looking after yourself on the road; hygiene and learning what works for you and your stomach for two days on the bounce.

Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

redfalo

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #3 on: 29 December, 2016, 11:50:12 am »
I mostly agree with what Matt and Marcus said above.  If you cannot do a 600, why not do a second 400 before LEL instead?

Like many other riders, I find 400s the toughest distance, as you are tempted to ride it without sleep. In my build-up to PBP, I learned the most from my 400 (which was the relatively easy Strawberry & Asparagus in Essex), where I blew up after 340 km, as I went too fast at the beginning and could not sleep as it was too cold. The biggest benefit from the following 600 was psychological - I learned I could manage the issues that brought me close to the abyss on the 400 in a better way, which gave me a lot of self-confidence for PBP.

It also depends on how experienced you are regarding 200s/300s. If you're a seasoned Audax rider, but have only done "shorter" brevets, I would worry less about the 600 than if you are a relative newbie to the whole thing. 

I only started Audaxing in mid-2014. Prior to PBP,  my longest ride was the 600 qualifier, and prior to that, it was the 400 qualifier. Doing an RRtY prior to PBP, paired with the qualifying SR series, helped me immensely. During the first year, I had the impression I was learning tons of new things on every ride, like getting more efficient at controls, stopping less often, drinking and eating on the bike, pacing myself, becoming more familiar with spending that long hours in the saddle. Moreover, the RRtY and SR helped me massively to tweak the setup of my bike and my other kit. 

But besides the brevets, I started to do at least an hour of fast laps around Regents Park flat out at least once a week in April, about 4 months ahead of PBP. That really helped to improve my fitness and my overall pace.

I'm still on the RRtY treadmill  :facepalm: and plan to ride a SR series prior to LEL, combined with the Regents Park speed training.

The additional training effect from a 600 is probably not that big. Shorter, higher-intensity rides - ideally interval training, but I can't really be arsed to do this in a structured way - are probably more efficient in terms of improving your fitness.

If you can't convince, confuse.

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #4 on: 30 December, 2016, 08:02:24 am »
Thanks guys this has been really helpful.

The 600 ride had me a bit stumped but looking at more 300's and 400's in May and June works much better with shorter week day rides with some hills to increase fitness. I like the idea of combining rides or riding to or from an event to give me the feel of a multi day ride, approaching things like this will allow me to taper my rides in July so I'm ready for the off on the 30th. My greatest fear was attempting a 600 and ending up DNF, I thought that might finish me off at a stage where there was no room to come back but you have put that fear to rest.

Thanks again

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bhoot

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #5 on: 30 December, 2016, 09:36:15 am »
What a 600 does expose you to that you may not have experienced is the back-to-back days thing.  You do not need to ride an event to experience that.  You don't need to ride a 600km for it even.  The important lessons (in my mind) are more about the understanding of what it's like to get back on a bike the day after a long day.

A couple of good 250km days back to back (or 300/200 for example) will give you some ideas on what it is like to wake up a bit stiff and sore, but then to realise that everything generally comes good again (at some point in the day!).

Exactly that... we did it in 2013 with only one 200 and one 400 audax ride under our wheels, but we had a couple of weekends where we cycled 500 over two days for the reason that Marcus gave. Starting from London one outing took us to the Travelodge in Acle via Norwich and back via a more direct route, and another one took us to Loughborough Travelodge (spot the theme!) via Boston (so checking out the initial two sections of LEL) and then back via a more lumpy route through Kettering (on a very hot day which proved to be good practice for the real thing as it turned out)

vorsprung

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #6 on: 30 December, 2016, 04:43:58 pm »
My plan is to build up for an Easter Arrow (that's 400km in mid April) then slack off a bit

Pick it up in late June with fast(er) rides.  I'm thinking of 100km in 3.5 hours.  As it's summer might be possible to fit in some of this mid week, maybe take the long route back from work

Then two weeks before LEL do a perm 600.  I've done the BCM a few times so I'll probably do that

The week before the LEL I aim to do as little riding as possible

frillipippi

  • from Italy
Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #7 on: 07 January, 2017, 08:43:30 am »
In 2013 I completed LEL with no experience of 600, my preparation only included one 400, one 300 and several 200. It's been the hardest experience of my life, so far, and I wouldn't suggest to repeat it. After that, I completed several long randonnees, including PBP 2015, far more easily because I had gained experience from LEL and prepared better.
Going back to 2013: there was no 600 at hand, close to my hometown; I was very busy on a new job; I had completed the 400 quite easily not sleeping at all through the night, so I decided to skip the 600 lesson. During the late spring and summer, I went on training on long, single days. It was not enough, as I understood later. Shortly before leaving for the UK (I live in Italy) I grew more and more afraid, as I felt I was underprepared. When it came to packing, I was so scared that I took all my summer and winter clothes, also the gloves I use when temperature falls below 0 Celsius... At the start, I guess I was carrying the heaviest luggage, plus two overstuffed drop bags that the volunteers were so kind to accept even if they were really exaggerated. Everything went fine on the first two days. Problems began shortly after Edinburgh: my ankles started hurting, then Shermer's neck began on the way down from Yad Moss, while hands and feet were growing increasingly numb and tingling, only to mention the main issues. Three days of real pain. After arriving, it took me a couple of days to recover, except for my tingling hands that improved slowly and fully recovered only after more than a month (ulnar nerve, as I came to know later).
I didn't give up only because my mind controlled my body: my wife and daughters were waiting for me at the arrival, I had talked to all my friends and acquaintances about the great adventure and I didn't want to lose face.

If there's no official 600 that fits your schedule, I suggest you to try with something else that keeps you on the saddle for at least two long days, three is better. In continental Europe there are several Super Randonnees, permanent, as described here:

http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/421%20-%20General%20Super%20Randonn%C3%A9e.html

None of them are in the British Isles, but there's one in Germany, and many in France. I tried one down here in Italy, and am looking forward to using some of them for training this summer.

I fully agree with what previously said by others, that it's not just about training your legs' muscles, every part of your body must adapt to the experience of riding your bicycle continously for so long, and there's much more: you test your equipment, feeding, hygiene, etc. You gradually grow more self-confident, more at ease, and this too can help.

Graeme

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #8 on: 07 January, 2017, 10:00:19 am »
They've said the good stuff. ^^

I'm not trying to be completely OT, but in terms of 'how far to go' it is worth considering also how broad your training might be. I'm adding core strength to my training in the form of yoga/Pilates. I appreciate this is an add-on to the conventional wisdom of simply riding your bike more, but encourage you to think holistically (if you're not already thinking that way).

Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #9 on: 10 January, 2017, 11:22:32 am »
They've said the good stuff. ^^

I'm not trying to be completely OT, but in terms of 'how far to go' it is worth considering also how broad your training might be. I'm adding core strength to my training in the form of yoga/Pilates. I appreciate this is an add-on to the conventional wisdom of simply riding your bike more, but encourage you to think holistically (if you're not already thinking that way).

Totally agree! Over long distance comfort is a performance factor, and core strength is a major contributor to comfort. Pilates and yoga I would see as the 'intervals' of comfort :-)

Graeme

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #10 on: 10 January, 2017, 12:34:27 pm »
Training for LEL... After a grim 200km DIY yesterday I was reflecting on the hidden side of audaxing. The training we do now which hopefully stands us in good stead for July.

"The glamorous side of Randonneuring"

Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #11 on: 10 January, 2017, 05:35:55 pm »
Graeme's article reminded me of a film I made about the early training for PBP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iQYArfcCQg

i qualified for PBP, and rode the first bit to Mortagne, then transferred to a motorbike to film. In previous LELs and PBPs I'd always done an SR, but I'd also done 10 and 25 mile time trials, usually under 27 minutes for a 10. I'd had a detached retina in 2012, which made me less keen on the high heart rate TT stuff. I had a cataract operation shortly before PBP. I could have delayed it, but felt curing my night-time double vision was a good idea.

As I say in the film, long distance randonnees are as much about time as distance. You need to have an awareness of where you want to be at what time, and to be capable of upping the pace to get back on schedule. Just doing rides at a constant pace doesn't equip you for that.

If you are already riding with a club at better than 20mph, then you should have no trouble doing LEL once you harden your contact points with an SR series. I was always too heavy to stick with a fast club group, as it's hilly around here. I found I got the best results from TTs.

jiberjaber

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #12 on: 10 January, 2017, 06:19:36 pm »
Training for LEL... After a grim 200km DIY yesterday I was reflecting on the hidden side of audaxing. The training we do now which hopefully stands us in good stead for July.

"The glamorous side of Randonneuring"

Good read Graeme, I especially liked the Owl - I had a similar experience on my Jan 200 with 3 peacocks assaulting the front of a house! - its the things that make the grim days bearable :)
Regards,

Joergen

Graeme

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #13 on: 10 January, 2017, 06:33:41 pm »
Thanks Jason.

And...
Graeme's article reminded me of a film I made about the early training for PBP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iQYArfcCQg

i qualified for PBP, and rode the first bit to Mortagne, then transferred to a motorbike to film. In previous LELs and PBPs I'd always done an SR, but I'd also done 10 and 25 mile time trials, usually under 27 minutes for a 10. I'd had a detached retina in 2012, which made me less keen on the high heart rate TT stuff. I had a cataract operation shortly before PBP. I could have delayed it, but felt curing my night-time double vision was a good idea.

As I say in the film, long distance randonnees are as much about time as distance. You need to have an awareness of where you want to be at what time, and to be capable of upping the pace to get back on schedule. Just doing rides at a constant pace doesn't equip you for that.

If you are already riding with a club at better than 20mph, then you should have no trouble doing LEL once you harden your contact points with an SR series. I was always too heavy to stick with a fast club group, as it's hilly around here. I found I got the best results from TTs.

"I was going to do PBP but I think I'm beginning to see the light now" I wonder if the rest of us are slow learners. :) Nice video Damon - hadn't seen that one before. Great to see you cycling uphill.

Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #14 on: 10 January, 2017, 10:31:39 pm »
The one thing that the 600km did for me (apart from being beautiful) was give me some confidence.  I did the Mr Pickwick goes in search of  Dragons and Legends ahead of PBP.  I think remains the hardest ride I have ever done.  I suspect that I will never forget the sight of a sole rider, toiling up a hill a mile or so ahead of me , thinking "oh god, that's me soon"

I guess I am saying it was mental training probably more than physical.

ElyDave

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #15 on: 11 January, 2017, 10:02:13 pm »
really useful thread here, something I've managed before for ultra running, but never ultra cycling.  I'm also thinking that the general harder/less fun winter riding is all conditioning for when the weather and light improve and the 200/300s become fun rather than endurance.

One thing for me is also to find the balance between time on the bike and the rest of life when we all have jobs, families etc. In my case a lot of travel away from home midweek, and quite a bit of extra time spent on working towards a promotion, so taking a whole weekend is some serious negotiation.  One thing I'm planning on doing therefore is to extend my mid week evening rides (turbo at the moment) from an hour to 2hours, then 3 etc as the light improves.
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redfalo

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #16 on: 11 January, 2017, 10:25:59 pm »
[quote author=ElyDave link=topic=100905.msg2122277#msg2122277 date=1484172133

One thing for me is also to find the balance between time on the bike and the rest of life when we all have jobs, families etc. In my case a lot of travel away from home midweek, and quite a bit of extra time spent on working towards a promotion, so taking a whole weekend is some serious negotiation.
[/quote]

time can really be a bottleneck. what works really nicely for me in summer is what I call "After Work Audax". Ride to work with your Audaxing bike on a Friday. Leave work by 4pm-ish. Go for a brisk 200k ride. Be home by 2am-ish. Have a lie-in on Saturday, and enjoy the rest of the weekend. Earliest month I did this was June
If you can't convince, confuse.

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ElyDave

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #17 on: 11 January, 2017, 10:39:41 pm »
[quote author=ElyDave link=topic=100905.msg2122277#msg2122277 date=1484172133

One thing for me is also to find the balance between time on the bike and the rest of life when we all have jobs, families etc. In my case a lot of travel away from home midweek, and quite a bit of extra time spent on working towards a promotion, so taking a whole weekend is some serious negotiation.

time can really be a bottleneck. what works really nicely for me in summer is what I call "After Work Audax". Ride to work with your Audaxing bike on a Friday. Leave work by 4pm-ish. Go for a brisk 200k ride. Be home by 2am-ish. Have a lie-in on Saturday, and enjoy the rest of the weekend. Earliest month I did this was June
[/quote]

That doesn't quite work if work is Aberdeen and Friday is spent geting home though.  Easier if I'm working from home and can slope off early in that manner though.  I've also thought about getting a bike up to Aberdeen, where I spend a reasonable amount of time, to do a few evening runs, but there's the hassle of finding somewhere to keep it.

Needs some more thought
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Oaky

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #18 on: 12 January, 2017, 09:32:18 pm »
My semi-educated guess is that the best preparation could well be a pair (or better a trio?) of back to back 300s.

I'd have said 200s would be nearly as good, but that would assume you already know how well you cope with sustained sleep deficit.

(This is from someone who has never done LEL or PBP.  The best I can claim is some SR series, OTOH, I am a very analytical type, and was seriously thinking of doing LEL this time around, but decided against in the end.  Treating it as 4x 300k + a 200 was going to be my plan, so I reckoned that if I could do 2 consecutive 300s with minimal sleep in between, I'd have felt confident that I'd get round)
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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #19 on: 20 January, 2017, 09:20:22 pm »
Last year I did the Celtic Knot which was made up of three loops: 360; 340 and 300 and had not done a 600 beforehand. I only managed a couple of 300's and the 400 Easter Arrow, but also tried to get along to some of the hillier rides (and collect some AAA points). I agree with points above about trying to ride back-to-back (maybe ride to and from an event if time allows) - I did a few of these; also some high impact riding too (riding some club rides helped me as it's full of youngsters who ride fast and push me to my limits - which didn't take too long!). This year plan to add some core because my arms are puny and I noticed how much they hurt after Dale Grimpeur last year so am using a rowing machine to help build them up a bit! Finally am hoping to ride as much of LEL with a group as this was my biggest leaning take away from Celtic Knot (which was a pretty small event). Not necessarily planning to do a 600 this year either (if excluding the 2 back-to-back 600's in LEL!)

ElyDave

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #20 on: 20 January, 2017, 11:14:48 pm »
Yebbut rowing is about 70% legs, 20% upper body and only 10% arms
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #21 on: 20 January, 2017, 11:23:34 pm »
you already know how well you cope with sustained sleep deficit.

I think this is one of the hardest things to get right - or as a minimum, recognising the difference between being sleep deprived and merely very tired.

In 2013 I rode LEL without having done an SR, though as my longest weekend had been a total of about 580km (a 200 on the Saturday ECEd to about 330, then a 200 on the Sunday which was about 20km from home) I was reasonably confident that I could cope well with riding when tired. Problem was, I simply didn't know how to spot my own sleep deprivation, nor realise how much it slowed me down, so I was too tempted to push on rather than recognising that even fifteen minutes shut-eye would pay enormous dividends.

That contributed substantially to me getting round the route, but about four hours out of time (starting two hours after my slot because I'd got to sleep far too late the night before the start, and the confidence of inexperience leading to me pissing about for far too long at controls - I think I spent about ten hours at Brampton on the way north - didn't help either).

simonp

Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #22 on: 21 January, 2017, 08:31:14 am »
Yebbut rowing is about 70% legs, 20% upper body and only 10% arms

Unless you use too much arms like me.

Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #23 on: 21 January, 2017, 11:09:44 am »
Lifting weights makes me better at rowing, rowing doesn't make me better at lifting weights.

Skip the rowing machine, head for the bar. (No, not that one!)

ElyDave

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Re: Training. How far to go?
« Reply #24 on: 21 January, 2017, 01:10:32 pm »
rowing is good for the core and, if at a low stroke rate also benefits the leg strength-endurance stuff.  Similar to the bike, long, steady, controlled HR sessions are good for the base of the training pyramid perhaps to get over the monotony of continual bike sessions, or just for a change.

Definitely agree though, lift heavy stuff for upper body strength, even bodyweight exercises.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens