Author Topic: an apology  (Read 20845 times)

spindrift

Re: an apology
« Reply #100 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:29:12 pm »
 Rosslyn Chapel benefited immensely from its appearance in The DVC to the extent it's had restoration work and a new visitor centre built because of the increase in tourist numbers. The film was total rubbish though, I only watched half of it because the future Mrs Spindrift Audrey Tatou is in it, running about with someone who looked like Bono from one church that had a big arrow on it pointing to another church.  Anyhoo, here's the top twenty countdown of Brown's very worst sentences:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/6194031/The-Lost-Symbol-and-The-Da-Vinci-Code-author-Dan-Browns-20-worst-sentences.html

Quote
The Da Vinci Code: Title. The Da Vinci Code.
Leonardo’s surname was not Da Vinci. He was from Vinci, or of Vinci. As many critics have pointed out, calling it The Da Vinci Code is like saying Mr Of Arabia or asking What Would Of Nazareth Do?

The Da Vinci Code, chapter 4: As a boy, Langdon had fallen down an abandoned well shaft and almost died treading water in the narrow space for hours before being rescued. Since then, he'd suffered a haunting phobia of enclosed spaces - elevators, subways, squash courts.



Other enclosed spaces include toilet cubicles, phone boxes and dog kennels.

The Da Vinci Code, chapter 4: A voice spoke, chillingly close. "Do not move." On his hands and knees, the curator froze, turning his head slowly. Only fifteen feet away, outside the sealed gate, the mountainous silhouette of his attacker stared through the iron bars. He was broad and tall, with ghost-pale skin and thinning white hair. His irises were pink with dark red pupils.

A silhouette with white hair and pink irises stood chillingly close but 15 feet away. What’s wrong with this picture?

Deception Point, chapter 8: Overhanging her precarious body was a jaundiced face whose skin resembled a sheet of parchment paper punctured by two emotionless eyes.

It’s not clear what Brown thinks ‘precarious’ means here.

The Da Vinci Code, chapter 5: Only those with a keen eye would notice his 14-karat gold bishop's ring with purple amethyst, large diamonds, and hand-tooled mitre-crozier appliqué.

A keen eye indeed.



Re: an apology
« Reply #101 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:36:48 pm »
At best, Dan Brown's novels are good nonsense. Fair play to him he does his research [snip]

Are you sure?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DanBrowned/DanBrown
Have you seen my blog? It has words. And pictures! http://ablogofallthingskathy.blogspot.com/

spindrift

Re: an apology
« Reply #102 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:39:18 pm »
At best, Dan Brown's novels are good nonsense. Fair play to him he does his research [snip]

Are you sure?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DanBrowned/DanBrown

Quote
Louvre Pyramid is composed of 673 panes of glass, not 666 panes of glass as in the book

I hurled the book across the room when I read that. Does he take us for fools?

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #103 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:41:30 pm »
Without sufficient plot to carry it along, I did find myself focusing on the writing in Inferno and I can only echo some of the criticisms. He does fling descriptions at his characters seemingly in the hope that they'll stick and I often think why, what relevance does it have? Handy character facts ahoy. He may as well tell me that a character has freckles (probably multitudinous amber facemarks). Why? What purpose does that fact have. Lots of people have freckles. Now, in the hands of another writer, perhaps our faithless narrator finds himself caught looking at those freckles, tracing lines between them, plotting new fantastic constellations. See, there's a story in there, we're being told that the narrator is infatuated.
Right - well, fine - that's great. Like another poster said, I'd buy your novel. When's it out?
But some of the other shit that's been recommended is not like that, as I've proved. And that isn't baseless accusation, I have downloaded and tried it.


Quote
You can have at the choice of a character having a long wait or time stretching out for them like a cat on a lazy Sunday afternoon. If you've seen a cat take a long, languid stretch, this speaks volumes more.
It doesn't really work for me unless the cat can stretch itself to the point that it's 10 foot long, but I like it anyway.



Let me guess, I suppose all you who think Dan Brown is a bad author also think Lowry isn't "real art" as well, right?

spindrift

Re: an apology
« Reply #104 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:43:40 pm »
Well, that's a lazy stereotype, you may as well say people who like Dan Brown usually holiday in Spain, think "You've Been Framed" is the funniest thing on telly and have a niece called Chardonnay.

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #105 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:43:57 pm »

Quote
Louvre Pyramid is composed of 673 panes of glass, not 666 panes of glass as in the book

I hurled the book across the room when I read that. Does he take us for fools?

... and ended up with 5 panes of glass in your window, not 6 panes of glass as you did previously. ;D

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: an apology
« Reply #106 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:53:17 pm »
At best, Dan Brown's novels are good nonsense. Fair play to him he does his research [snip]

Are you sure?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DanBrowned/DanBrown

Fair dues  :) I mean its not Victoria Hislop level of research, maybe I should have said a thorough search of the different theories?

Re: an apology
« Reply #107 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:55:27 pm »
My main gripe with Dan Brown was the stereotyping. It was exactly like watching some generic Hollywood schlock where he's in his fifties and balding; she's the only named female character and is played by a nubile twenty-something so clearly they'll end up in the sack together (having Good Sex, because they're Good People); This Guy is the obvious baddie (until the main character is inevitably double-crossed by that nice old guy he's trusted all along) so let's give him a deformity of some form, maybe make him a member of some ethnic minority like Islam*, and let's make him a sadomasochist because Bad People Have Bad Sex. Oh, and let's throw in a few patronising puzzles to make the audience feel good about themselves: "Woe is us! We are standing on Newton's tomb, trying to solve a puzzle about "something round that fell on Newton's head". The answer is a five-letter word, and rhymes with "Bapple"! We shall never solve this and the mystery shall go un-solved! Woe!".

After all that, the writing style is a minor gripe with me. But then, there are people who like that sort of story, because Hollywood and Dan Brown keep churning 'em out for a profit, and so be it. Just please don't make me read any more.

 :)

*Irony
Have you seen my blog? It has words. And pictures! http://ablogofallthingskathy.blogspot.com/

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: an apology
« Reply #108 on: 26 June, 2013, 04:59:00 pm »
Without sufficient plot to carry it along, I did find myself focusing on the writing in Inferno and I can only echo some of the criticisms. He does fling descriptions at his characters seemingly in the hope that they'll stick and I often think why, what relevance does it have? Handy character facts ahoy. He may as well tell me that a character has freckles (probably multitudinous amber facemarks). Why? What purpose does that fact have. Lots of people have freckles. Now, in the hands of another writer, perhaps our faithless narrator finds himself caught looking at those freckles, tracing lines between them, plotting new fantastic constellations. See, there's a story in there, we're being told that the narrator is infatuated.
Right - well, fine - that's great. Like another poster said, I'd buy your novel. When's it out?
But some of the other shit that's been recommended is not like that, as I've proved. And that isn't baseless accusation, I have downloaded and tried it.


Quote
You can have at the choice of a character having a long wait or time stretching out for them like a cat on a lazy Sunday afternoon. If you've seen a cat take a long, languid stretch, this speaks volumes more.
It doesn't really work for me unless the cat can stretch itself to the point that it's 10 foot long, but I like it anyway.



Let me guess, I suppose all you who think Dan Brown is a bad author also think Lowry isn't "real art" as well, right?

Lowry was a wonderful artist, what I loved about his artwork is that he is so diverse - his portraits of people are fantastic, as well as his landscapes.

spindrift

Re: an apology
« Reply #109 on: 26 June, 2013, 05:00:37 pm »
My main gripe with Dan Brown was the stereotyping. It was exactly like watching some generic Hollywood schlock where he's in his fifties and balding; she's the only named female character and is played by a nubile twenty-something so clearly they'll end up in the sack together


Angels and Demons, chapter 1:

Quote
Although not overly handsome in a classical sense, the forty-year-old Langdon had what his female colleagues referred to as an ‘erudite’ appeal — wisp of gray in his thick brown hair, probing blue eyes, an arrestingly deep voice, and the strong, carefree smile of a collegiate athlete.

I first read that as "Colgate athlete".




citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #110 on: 26 June, 2013, 05:09:43 pm »
Without sufficient plot to carry it along, I did find myself focusing on the writing in Inferno and I can only echo some of the criticisms. He does fling descriptions at his characters seemingly in the hope that they'll stick and I often think why, what relevance does it have? Handy character facts ahoy. He may as well tell me that a character has freckles (probably multitudinous amber facemarks). Why? What purpose does that fact have. Lots of people have freckles. Now, in the hands of another writer, perhaps our faithless narrator finds himself caught looking at those freckles, tracing lines between them, plotting new fantastic constellations. See, there's a story in there...

I'm reminded of Flaubert's Parrot by Julian Barnes. An academic is writing a biography of Flaubert and muses on the fact that in Madame Bovary, Flaubert refers three times to the colour of Emma Bovary's eyes, and each time they're a different colour. This, he argues, is not a mistake on Flaubert's part but a function of the significance of eye colour in the respective scenes. The point being that it doesn't matter what colour Emma Bovary's eyes really are. Sure, it might help you conjure up a mental picture of her - one that would be utterly meaningless. We can learn so many more interesting things from Emma Bovary's eyes.

I'm also reminded of The Teleportation Accident by Ned Beauman - for me, the best new book of 2012. Late on, there's an inaccurate reference to something that happened years earlier. The thing is, even though it's not presented directly as such, the event is being described as it is remembered by the protagonist. It's the character's memory that's faulty, not the editing of the manuscript. A neat trick that conveys a lot of information (mainly about the state of mind of the protagonist) elegantly and concisely. That for me is the hallmark of "good" writing.

Ned Beauman also has a way with metaphor that fans of Chandler will appreciate. For example: "There was enough ice in her voice for a serviceable daiquiri." Or: "The sort of moustache that could beat you in an arm-wrestling contest." In fact, the whole bonkers plot is very Chandleresque in many respects.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: an apology
« Reply #111 on: 26 June, 2013, 05:43:26 pm »
[I'm in danger of spending all evening googling Chandler quotes]

“She lowered her lashes until they almost cuddled her cheeks and slowly raised them again, like a theatre curtain. I was to get to know that trick. That was supposed to make me roll over on my back with all four paws in the air.”
― Raymond Chandler, The Big Sleep
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: an apology
« Reply #112 on: 26 June, 2013, 05:54:06 pm »
Without sufficient plot to carry it along, I did find myself focusing on the writing in Inferno and I can only echo some of the criticisms. He does fling descriptions at his characters seemingly in the hope that they'll stick and I often think why, what relevance does it have? Handy character facts ahoy. He may as well tell me that a character has freckles (probably multitudinous amber facemarks). Why? What purpose does that fact have. Lots of people have freckles. Now, in the hands of another writer, perhaps our faithless narrator finds himself caught looking at those freckles, tracing lines between them, plotting new fantastic constellations. See, there's a story in there...

I'm reminded of Flaubert's Parrot by Julian Barnes. An academic is writing a biography of Flaubert and muses on the fact that in Madame Bovary, Flaubert refers three times to the colour of Emma Bovary's eyes, and each time they're a different colour. This, he argues, is not a mistake on Flaubert's part but a function of the significance of eye colour in the respective scenes. The point being that it doesn't matter what colour Emma Bovary's eyes really are. Sure, it might help you conjure up a mental picture of her - one that would be utterly meaningless. We can learn so many more interesting things from Emma Bovary's eyes.

I'm also reminded of The Teleportation Accident by Ned Beauman - for me, the best new book of 2012. Late on, there's an inaccurate reference to something that happened years earlier. The thing is, even though it's not presented directly as such, the event is being described as it is remembered by the protagonist. It's the character's memory that's faulty, not the editing of the manuscript. A neat trick that conveys a lot of information (mainly about the state of mind of the protagonist) elegantly and concisely. That for me is the hallmark of "good" writing.

Ned Beauman also has a way with metaphor that fans of Chandler will appreciate. For example: "There was enough ice in her voice for a serviceable daiquiri." Or: "The sort of moustache that could beat you in an arm-wrestling contest." In fact, the whole bonkers plot is very Chandleresque in many respects.

Thanks Citoyen, will have to check out Beauman  :thumbsup:

Philip Kerr also does a good line in Chandler-esque quips.

ian

Re: an apology
« Reply #113 on: 26 June, 2013, 07:08:15 pm »
Without sufficient plot to carry it along, I did find myself focusing on the writing in Inferno and I can only echo some of the criticisms. He does fling descriptions at his characters seemingly in the hope that they'll stick and I often think why, what relevance does it have? Handy character facts ahoy. He may as well tell me that a character has freckles (probably multitudinous amber facemarks). Why? What purpose does that fact have. Lots of people have freckles. Now, in the hands of another writer, perhaps our faithless narrator finds himself caught looking at those freckles, tracing lines between them, plotting new fantastic constellations. See, there's a story in there...

I'm reminded of Flaubert's Parrot by Julian Barnes. An academic is writing a biography of Flaubert and muses on the fact that in Madame Bovary, Flaubert refers three times to the colour of Emma Bovary's eyes, and each time they're a different colour. This, he argues, is not a mistake on Flaubert's part but a function of the significance of eye colour in the respective scenes. The point being that it doesn't matter what colour Emma Bovary's eyes really are. Sure, it might help you conjure up a mental picture of her - one that would be utterly meaningless. We can learn so many more interesting things from Emma Bovary's eyes.

I'm also reminded of The Teleportation Accident by Ned Beauman - for me, the best new book of 2012. Late on, there's an inaccurate reference to something that happened years earlier. The thing is, even though it's not presented directly as such, the event is being described as it is remembered by the protagonist. It's the character's memory that's faulty, not the editing of the manuscript. A neat trick that conveys a lot of information (mainly about the state of mind of the protagonist) elegantly and concisely. That for me is the hallmark of "good" writing.

Ned Beauman also has a way with metaphor that fans of Chandler will appreciate. For example: "There was enough ice in her voice for a serviceable daiquiri." Or: "The sort of moustache that could beat you in an arm-wrestling contest." In fact, the whole bonkers plot is very Chandleresque in many respects.

Personally, I find the trick to successful characters is for an author to provide enough of a hook to hang your imagination on, but really not much more than that. No elaborate structure is required. Less is so often more. As a reader, you don’t really need to know what colour their eyes are, their hair colour, their brand of jacket, not unless it furthers your understanding of the character. If not, I say let the reader fill the gaps, they’ll do a better job than the words of any writer, no matter how good.

I also find the trick of good metaphors and simile is avoid overdoing it, it’s fantastic to be led by smooth, uncluttered text and then be hit with a brilliant line, it’s like stumbling across a diamond. It’s great when an author uses a metaphor to squeeze so much meaning into a few words, letting your mind unpack them into so much more – that there was enough ice in her voice for a serviceable daiquiri does that so perfectly, and avoids cliché. I like that. I’d still like to know where my stretchy cat line came from, it’s bugging me, but Google isn’t telling. I was thinking Bradbury or Vonnegut. If they don’t claim it, I’m keeping it. For the record, my cat is very stretchy, possibly infinitely so. She was rescued from her last owner, some bonkers German chap, apparently kept her in a box with a vial of radioactive material. Odd thing to do with a cat, I'd say. Claimed she was dead, but when I looked inside she wasn't.

Without sufficient plot to carry it along, I did find myself focusing on the writing in Inferno and I can only echo some of the criticisms. He does fling descriptions at his characters seemingly in the hope that they'll stick and I often think why, what relevance does it have? Handy character facts ahoy. He may as well tell me that a character has freckles (probably multitudinous amber facemarks). Why? What purpose does that fact have. Lots of people have freckles. Now, in the hands of another writer, perhaps our faithless narrator finds himself caught looking at those freckles, tracing lines between them, plotting new fantastic constellations. See, there's a story in there, we're being told that the narrator is infatuated.

Right - well, fine - that's great. Like another poster said, I'd buy your novel. When's it out?
But some of the other shit that's been recommended is not like that, as I've proved. And that isn't baseless accusation, I have downloaded and tried it.

And that’s fine really, I don’t think anyone needs to justify their reading matter (but hey, it’s smut don’t sit next to me on the plane reading it). One of the worst books I failed to read was Captain Corelli’s Mandolin which someone insisted I read. I could’t get on with it. I did briefly flirt with a terror campaign against Louis de Bernières readers, but it seemed something of a minor overreaction, so I threw the damn thing over a hedge instead (Frith St, Shepherd's Bush, it's probably still there if anyone is interested). Godawful sludge.

I sadly have to finish my novels and find a publisher, all that dull stuff. It’s more of a hobby derived from my caustic emails around the office, which appear to have gleaned something of a cult following. It’s also probably quite likely they’ll get me fired at some point (well, frankly our product management team do act like punch drunk Oompa-Loompas, so I’m sticking with that one), which I expect is part of the interest, like watching a car crash.

Anyway, I need a plan B for just that eventuality and as my wife says, anything that keeps me from setting fire to things or doing DIY (they’re often indistinguishable) is a good thing. Anyhow, one is ready for a rewrite, but unfortunately after a long rant down the pub* about epic scifi novels, I accepted a challenge to write one myself, so I’m 300,000 words across the universe. Sadly, I’m deeply stubborn so I have to stick with these things, but actually it’s quite entertaining if possibly not very good. Given that a £10 bet is riding on this, it’s probably the worst per-word rate I’ve ever had. Note to self, do not get fired soon. I’d go back to writing smut (which did fund part of my education) but it’s all pictures now. Damn you, internet!

*This is one of a long line of things I’ve agreed to do down the pub, because at a certain time in the evening they all seemed perfectly reasonable and plausible (amongst others, these involve shaving my head [ha ha baldness, you lose], committing to losing six stone [if you find them, keep them], and becoming vegetarian [beans are truly the musical fruit, an entire symphony played on the devil’s trombone]).

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: an apology
« Reply #114 on: 26 June, 2013, 08:52:43 pm »
He may as well tell me that a character has freckles (probably multitudinous amber facemarks). Why? What purpose does that fact have. Lots of people have freckles. Now, in the hands of another writer, perhaps our faithless narrator finds himself caught looking at those freckles, tracing lines between them, plotting new fantastic constellations. See, there's a story in there, we're being told that the narrator is infatuated. It's not just a woman with freckles. Or perhaps she has green eyes and she's looking away, her face dappled with those freckles.
I have green eyes and freckles.
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: an apology
« Reply #115 on: 27 June, 2013, 08:52:14 am »
Ian started this thread with an apology, but I'd like to thank him. Bits of it have made me snort out loud with laughter.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #116 on: 27 June, 2013, 09:17:16 am »
Ian started this thread with an apology, but I'd like to thank him. Bits of it have made me snort out loud with laughter.

+1

In particular the 20 worst lines piece mentioned by spindrift.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: an apology
« Reply #117 on: 27 June, 2013, 09:42:53 am »
Ian started this thread with an apology, but I'd like to thank him. Bits of it have made me snort out loud with laughter.

+ 2  :)

I was reading out passages of Ian's verse to my husband, one of the best things that I have read in a long time  :)

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #118 on: 27 June, 2013, 10:43:01 am »
Have been perservering with the marlow audio book yesterday and this morning, I still maintain it's quite confusing but have been managing to follow the story, just. My beefs with it are that there seems to be too many characters introduced too early on - all gangsters, mainly, and you're not really sure who's blackmailing who, but he does seem to recount his experiences in conversations with people a bit later on so it's slightly followable. That and the fact that 'contacts' seem to fall into his lap just a little bit too conveniently. And why is he getting involved in investigating murders when he's just a private investigator been paid to find someone's brother - it's a bit like Rosemary and Thyme who are gardening and just happen to dig up a body and the police just happen to be inept so they solve the murder themselves. There's nothing about his home life, or his human foibles or infallibilities, he just seems to flit from one murder scene to another telling the police their job. He never does anything OTHER than his PI work - he never cooks himself microwave meals, has a shave, or trips over a pavement. Bit too superhuman. But still, I'm trying to imbibe the general gist rather than understand every detail, and I haven't found any sophistication that makes it more enjoyable (to me) than Dan Brown which makes me think I'm probably missing something and not reading between the lines enough, or understanding the 'hidden deeper meaning' that is what's meant to describe the characters, but still.
Still reading the Dan Brown book as well and haven't managed to find any frustrations which irk me the way it clearly does a lot of others, either.

Re: an apology
« Reply #119 on: 27 June, 2013, 11:06:19 am »
Quote
A voice spoke, chillingly close. "Do not move." On his hands and knees, the curator froze, turning his head slowly. Only fifteen feet away, outside the sealed gate, the mountainous silhouette of his attacker stared through the iron bars. He was broad and tall, with ghost-pale skin and thinning white hair. His irises were pink with dark red pupils.

You don't see anything wrong with this?


Ben, I can accept you enjoying DB. I'm currently re-reading some really trashy sci-fi I last read when I was 15 (Zelazny's Amber series, if anyone is interested). Plot, characters; they are all pretty rubbish. But it's enjoyable nonsense and I'm enjoying it half-out of the nostalgia.

There are some 'literary' writers who are as bad as DB for writing utter nonsense. Zadie Smith's 'White Teeth' annoyed the *uck out of me for one aspect. There is a major character who is supposed to be an unachieving nonentity. He has no guts, no determination, no ambition. A grey man. He's also supposedly won a bronze medal in the Olympics for cycling. What is wrong with this picture?
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #120 on: 27 June, 2013, 11:25:48 am »
Quote
A voice spoke, chillingly close. "Do not move." On his hands and knees, the curator froze, turning his head slowly. Only fifteen feet away, outside the sealed gate, the mountainous silhouette of his attacker stared through the iron bars. He was broad and tall, with ghost-pale skin and thinning white hair. His irises were pink with dark red pupils.

You don't see anything wrong with this?
Well, the telegraph thinks what's wrong with it is:
Quote
A silhouette with white hair and pink irises stood chillingly close but 15 feet away.
I assume they've got beef with the fact that if it's a silhouette you can't know that it's got white hair and pink irises, but I took it to mean that it's almost silhouetted, but front-lit just enough to be able to see those particular features.
Or see it as a film shot - the scene starts with Langdon's view, of a silhouette, but then the camera pans round and you can see that it is the monk with his white hair and pink eyes.

And I think 15 feet IS chillingly close, thanks - would you like to be 15 feet away from him ? especially if he's got a gun, which I think he has.

Quote
Ben, I can accept you enjoying DB. I'm currently re-reading some really trashy sci-fi I last read when I was 15 (Zelazny's Amber series, if anyone is interested).

I appreciate that people here accept that DB can be enjoyable. I argue however that unless it can be proven that the english language has been factually abused (as in, not by matter of opinion, such as breaking the 'show don't tell' rule, which is technically a matter of taste) - for example, if he has deliberately used incorrect grammar because it will be better understood by a less intelligent audience; then there is no factual basis on which DB's books are a "lower form of wit", and if that is the case then ridiculing them cannot escape being anything other than snobbery. It's ridiculing something purely because it is something different to what you yourself enjoy - not because it is doing something inarguably wrong. It's purely a matter of opinion whether the way Dan Brown writes is 'wrong', so therefore to look 'down' on it IS snobbery.

By the same token, yes, ridiculing Mills & Boon is (probably) also technically snobbery.

By all means make fun of it - I don't have any problem with that - there's nothing wrong with snobbery, per se - just don't try and pretend it's not that.

Re: an apology
« Reply #121 on: 27 June, 2013, 11:44:52 am »
Ben your displaying some kind of reverse snobbery. All writing is not equal. writing is a combination of craft and art much like music or painting. It takes practice and application to get good at the craft bit and a few can rise above that and do something that transcends craft into art. Also just like music and painting there is a lot of intellectual bull shiting, snobbery and navel gazing in literary criticism.
There is nothing wrong with craftsman like writing the point about Dan Brown is that a lot of people think he hasn't even got that bit right. An analogy with music would be a band where you can tell what the tune is and its kind of OK but the singer is off key a bit the lead guitarist is stumbling over the solos and the rhythm section doesn't swing, that's Dan Brown. Then you have another band that only does covers but have been working hard it and they are tight with a great rhythm section etc and you can enjoy what they do but they never come up with anything that people will care about in 20 years that's craft writing. Finally you have the Beatles, Bob Dylan, JS Bach, Mozart etc etc where they have something more, that's art. Even with punk where skill wasn't supposed to matter in the end most of it was only noise and it's only the competent or the gifted that we actually listen to now.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: an apology
« Reply #122 on: 27 June, 2013, 11:48:49 am »
Hmm <carefully considers Ben's last post>

Nah, I'm not being snobbish. DB is just a shit writer.


Clear enough for you?
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #123 on: 27 June, 2013, 12:04:42 pm »
Ben your displaying some kind of reverse snobbery. All writing is not equal. writing is a combination of craft and art much like music or painting. It takes practice and application to get good at the craft bit and a few can rise above that and do something that transcends craft into art. Also just like music and painting there is a lot of intellectual bull shiting, snobbery and navel gazing in literary criticism.
There is nothing wrong with craftsman like writing the point about Dan Brown is that a lot of people think he hasn't even got that bit right. An analogy with music would be a band where you can tell what the tune is and its kind of OK but the singer is off key a bit

but my point is that a singer being off key is something that be judged as a matter of fact. It's not a matter of opinion as to whether they're off key. You can measure the pitch of the voice electronically and prove quantitatively that it is off the mark. You can't do that with Dan Brown. This very difference is the exact reason why a lot of this thread is snobbery.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #124 on: 27 June, 2013, 12:06:48 pm »
Dan Brown is a hack. Ben T is wrong. End of.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."