Author Topic: an apology  (Read 21018 times)

Re: an apology
« Reply #150 on: 27 June, 2013, 04:05:44 pm »
Not-especially-relevant factoid:  Chandler and Wodehouse went to the same school.

<nicks some of Ham's popcorn and goes back to lurking>

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: an apology
« Reply #151 on: 27 June, 2013, 04:14:17 pm »
What an unlikely yet interesting piece of trivia.
Getting there...

Re: an apology
« Reply #152 on: 27 June, 2013, 04:15:49 pm »
Not-especially-relevant factoid:  Chandler and Wodehouse went to the same school.

<nicks some of Ham's popcorn and goes back to lurking>
If this isn't true, it should be.

<nicks some more popcorn>
<i>Marmite slave</i>

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: an apology
« Reply #153 on: 27 June, 2013, 04:19:41 pm »
Tis true!  Tis true!
Getting there...

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: an apology
« Reply #154 on: 27 June, 2013, 04:21:55 pm »
And Dan Brown went to the same school as Mark Zuckerberg and John Irving (probably heavily referenced in A Prayer For Owen Meany).
Getting there...

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: an apology
« Reply #155 on: 27 June, 2013, 04:40:10 pm »
Ben might call it snobbery, but I choose to think of it as taste.  ;D
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


spindrift

Re: an apology
« Reply #156 on: 27 June, 2013, 05:13:06 pm »
Dulwich College, I think.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: an apology
« Reply #157 on: 27 June, 2013, 05:47:17 pm »
You are telling me that freemasons don't exist?  Must be to do with the decline in non-vaulted archways. (what did I do with that leather apron?
I'm snorting again.  ;D
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

ian

Re: an apology
« Reply #158 on: 27 June, 2013, 06:09:22 pm »
OK, out of interest, let's take this passage. It's been much maligned and ridiculed, but it does illustrate something of a stylistic problem. Yes, you can skim over it, let the momentum of the plot carry you, but let's put the brakes on for a moment, get out and take a poke in the undergrowth. We'll either find some meaning, a vintage copy of Knave, or a Louis de Bernières novel tossed out of passing car.

Quote
A voice spoke, chillingly close. "Do not move." On his hands and knees, the curator froze, turning his head slowly. Only fifteen feet away, outside the sealed gate, the mountainous silhouette of his attacker stared through the iron bars. He was broad and tall, with ghost-pale skin and thinning white hair. His irises were pink with dark red pupils.

So what he's saying, if we pare down the prose is:

Quote
"Do not move." The museum curator stopped and looked around. He saw his attacker standing behind the gate.

So we've stripped Mr Brown's skeleton of all that fleshy prose. So what was he trying to do with all those words? I think we all appreciate the effort he's making not to leave a word unemployed, keep them off the street where they may get up to no good, possibly hanging out with Will Self or some other verbose miscreant. So Dan is putting them to work. But in a rather odd and unnecessary way, rather like a government back to work scheme. Have you ever wandered into a meeting and surveyed the gallery of blank faces looking back at you and had that horrible, sinking thought: am I in the right place? That's what many of the words appear to be doing here. Give them their dues, they usually don't bottle it. They take a seat, and even when it becomes very apparent they're sitting in the wrong meeting, they stick with it. The 'voice spoke' for instance. Well, his attacker was probably not going to burst into song, unless Dan Brown is hosting an impromptu version of Phantom. OK, the paragraph doesn't have context, but I'm thinking we're not about to segue into a musical number here. Someone, somewhere must be working on a musical version of The Vinci Code.

But back to practicalities, our Dan is telling us that curator is being threatened by his attacker (they'll do that, those attackers), and that the attacker is an albino. We can deduce that it's dark but there is a source of light somewhere behind the attacker. He's a silhouetted after all. Unfortunately, Dan has tripped himself here – as much lamented – you can't have an albino silhouette. Albinos are, of course, pale. I'll vouch that you don't see them eagerly booking holidays to the Costa del Sol and if they do, they're going to be in Boots buying up all the Factor 50. I think we're getting the point here that the attacker is an albino and rather a large one at that. Mountainous, however, is rather large, unless of course those are mountains really far away, in which case we may be dealing with an albino midget. It's pretty easy to see why he's a bit angry in that case, he's not been dealt a good hand by the gods.

What it really lacks is any kind of comparator. Skipping the nonsensical, you have to ask questions like how tall and broad. Tall as the gate? Perhaps he fills the space between whatever is holding the gates up? It's an easier comparison for the reader than a distant and rather unfeasible mountain. And then to the silhouette problem. We can't see his features, but we need to know that he's an albino (for some reason, just go with it, OK). So, hey what do albinos have? Dan helped here: he has thinning white hair. So, perhaps with the light behind him, we can see that, cast like an aura. Perhaps an halo, like an angel, but not that kind of the angel, after all he's holding a gun and your average angel doesn't point a gun at you (well, I assume he has a gun, he may of course be using chilling language instead).

There is, of course, no perfect way to write it, but there are better ways to write it, either leaner or richer.

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: an apology
« Reply #159 on: 27 June, 2013, 06:52:55 pm »
OK, out of interest, let's take this passage. It's been much maligned and ridiculed, but it does illustrate something of a stylistic problem. Yes, you can skim over it, let the momentum of the plot carry you, but let's put the brakes on for a moment, get out and take a poke in the undergrowth. We'll either find some meaning, a vintage copy of Knave, or a Louis de Bernières novel tossed out of passing car.

Quote
A voice spoke, chillingly close. "Do not move." On his hands and knees, the curator froze, turning his head slowly. Only fifteen feet away, outside the sealed gate, the mountainous silhouette of his attacker stared through the iron bars. He was broad and tall, with ghost-pale skin and thinning white hair. His irises were pink with dark red pupils.

So what he's saying, if we pare down the prose is:

Quote
"Do not move." The museum curator stopped and looked around. He saw his attacker standing behind the gate.

So we've stripped Mr Brown's skeleton of all that fleshy prose. So what was he trying to do with all those words? I think we all appreciate the effort he's making not to leave a word unemployed, keep them off the street where they may get up to no good, possibly hanging out with Will Self or some other verbose miscreant. So Dan is putting them to work. But in a rather odd and unnecessary way, rather like a government back to work scheme. Have you ever wandered into a meeting and surveyed the gallery of blank faces looking back at you and had that horrible, sinking thought: am I in the right place? That's what many of the words appear to be doing here. Give them their dues, they usually don't bottle it. They take a seat, and even when it becomes very apparent they're sitting in the wrong meeting, they stick with it. The 'voice spoke' for instance. Well, his attacker was probably not going to burst into song, unless Dan Brown is hosting an impromptu version of Phantom. OK, the paragraph doesn't have context, but I'm thinking we're not about to segue into a musical number here. Someone, somewhere must be working on a musical version of The Vinci Code.

But back to practicalities, our Dan is telling us that curator is being threatened by his attacker (they'll do that, those attackers), and that the attacker is an albino. We can deduce that it's dark but there is a source of light somewhere behind the attacker. He's a silhouetted after all. Unfortunately, Dan has tripped himself here – as much lamented – you can't have an albino silhouette. Albinos are, of course, pale. I'll vouch that you don't see them eagerly booking holidays to the Costa del Sol and if they do, they're going to be in Boots buying up all the Factor 50. I think we're getting the point here that the attacker is an albino and rather a large one at that. Mountainous, however, is rather large, unless of course those are mountains really far away, in which case we may be dealing with an albino midget. It's pretty easy to see why he's a bit angry in that case, he's not been dealt a good hand by the gods.

What it really lacks is any kind of comparator. Skipping the nonsensical, you have to ask questions like how tall and broad. Tall as the gate? Perhaps he fills the space between whatever is holding the gates up? It's an easier comparison for the reader than a distant and rather unfeasible mountain. And then to the silhouette problem. We can't see his features, but we need to know that he's an albino (for some reason, just go with it, OK). So, hey what do albinos have? Dan helped here: he has thinning white hair. So, perhaps with the light behind him, we can see that, cast like an aura. Perhaps an halo, like an angel, but not that kind of the angel, after all he's holding a gun and your average angel doesn't point a gun at you (well, I assume he has a gun, he may of course be using chilling language instead).

There is, of course, no perfect way to write it, but there are better ways to write it, either leaner or richer.

I am literally sat here crying and laughing, had to stop reading this out to my husband, as I had lost control of my faculties.  ;D :'( ;D

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #160 on: 27 June, 2013, 07:19:45 pm »
<ripple of polite applause from the expensive seats>
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: an apology
« Reply #161 on: 27 June, 2013, 07:45:21 pm »
I am literally sat here crying and laughing, had to stop reading this out to my husband, as I had lost control of my faculties.  ;D :'( ;D

FTFY
[DB]
I am literally sat here, in the fourth bedroom of my house, built in a mock tudor style in 1932 with four bedrooms, on a sturdy oak chair, its intricately woven green brocade seat pad displaying, to those who recognize that it is a classic design from Ikea, my exquisite taste, with tears like dew on a cat's fur rolling down my perfectly symmetrical yet pleasingly lob-sided face whilst simultaneous laughing like a goat that has lost a rolling pin. So much so that I had to cease reading the entertaining prose to my husband, quite and somewhat untidy in dress yet with a look in his eyes like a chinchilla that is easy with the knowledge that it is king of the jungle and thus devastatingly attractive to all women upon whom he chose to bestow his gaze upon.
[/DB]
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: an apology
« Reply #162 on: 27 June, 2013, 07:57:22 pm »
The anti-Dan Brown brigade have tried to avoid the charge of snobbery by saying he uses technically incorrect language which if (and only if) true would justify ridicule, but when the detail is drilled into, it transpires that it's simply unrealistic - yet now you're trying to say that the two amount to the same thing. I maintain that they don't. If you insist they do, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
You've had examples of technically incorrect vocabulary given to you. Stop pretending otherwise. You've also had it explained to you that introducing unnecessary detail & getting it wrong is bad writing. Pretending that's just opinion is plain wrong. According to you, the only sin a writer can commit is to make grammatical errors which aren't in your personal list of permitted grammatical errors. Do you really believe that? Or are you trolling?
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: an apology
« Reply #163 on: 27 June, 2013, 09:59:42 pm »
<offers Ian a drink anna stuffed olive onna stick>

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #164 on: 28 June, 2013, 02:08:45 am »
Quote from: Bledlow
You've had examples of technically incorrect vocabulary given to you. Stop pretending otherwise. You've also had it explained to you that introducing unnecessary detail & getting it wrong is bad writing. Pretending that's just opinion is plain wrong. According to you, the only sin a writer can commit is to make grammatical errors which aren't in your personal list of permitted grammatical errors. Do you really believe that? Or are you trolling?
I'm drawing a distinction between grammatical errors and things that you don't like bit which aren't grammatical errors, you keep deliberately trying to blur the boundaries. But I stand by my distinction.

You're very fond of stating that   being unrealistic and "over description" are errors, but when you get slightly closer to proving it, give me  a shout.

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #165 on: 28 June, 2013, 08:13:16 am »
Lol @ pcolbeck

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: an apology
« Reply #166 on: 28 June, 2013, 04:00:11 pm »
Not-especially-relevant factoid:  Chandler and Wodehouse went to the same school.

<nicks some of Ham's popcorn and goes back to lurking>
I worry about being a Wodehouse bore, but since somebody else has started it: yes, and although they were a year off being there at the same time they were both on the Classical side (in modern terms that would mean Latin and Greek A-levels, but probably also English Literature) under the great A H Gilkes.

Wodehouse gives an account in one of his early school stories of Gilkes' routine of setting essay topics for the Classical sixth form ("One man's meat is another man's poison", in the book) and then giving one-on-one evening tutorials. The pupil would read the essay out and Gilkes criticised it mercilessly for English style as well as content. Both Wodehouse and Chandler had early and specific training in writing in order to be read aloud, in hitting a tone, and it shows.
Not especially helpful or mature

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #167 on: 28 June, 2013, 04:06:11 pm »
Great knowledge, HTFB. (And Emily.) Not boring at all.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: an apology
« Reply #168 on: 28 June, 2013, 04:15:32 pm »
Definitely not boring.

I find it fascinating that two people with the same education and training evolved such different (and distinctive) styles.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: an apology
« Reply #169 on: 28 June, 2013, 04:15:41 pm »
My other Wodehouse/Chandler mashup trivia factoid is that they're the two authors quoted in the OED for the use of "bimbo" to mean a bloke, not a babe. There's no evidence that this was school slang, though.
Not especially helpful or mature

Re: an apology
« Reply #170 on: 29 June, 2013, 05:30:53 pm »
Quote from: Bledlow
You've had examples of technically incorrect vocabulary given to you. Stop pretending otherwise. You've also had it explained to you that introducing unnecessary detail & getting it wrong is bad writing. Pretending that's just opinion is plain wrong. According to you, the only sin a writer can commit is to make grammatical errors which aren't in your personal list of permitted grammatical errors. Do you really believe that? Or are you trolling?
I'm drawing a distinction between grammatical errors and things that you don't like bit which aren't grammatical errors, you keep deliberately trying to blur the boundaries. But I stand by my distinction.

You're very fond of stating that   being unrealistic and "over description" are errors, but when you get slightly closer to proving it, give me  a shout.
I'm not blurring the boundaries at all. I've pointed out that Brown (1) makes linguistic errors (not limited to syntax - and if you really think that as long as the syntax fits the rules you learned at school all is well with his language, then I say to you "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously"), & (2) he makes ridiculous factual errors. You have chosen to interpret mentioning both of them as mixing them up, because it suits you. You're wrong.

Lack of realism is not an error, & I have never suggested that it is. Are you stupid, or are you just pretending to be? I have mentioned reading Terry Pratchett with pleasure. Think about what that says about my opinions of unrealistic literature.

Over description is lousy style. It's not a linguistic error, & I have never said that it is. You are misrepresenting what I have said, as you have at other times. This is a common tactic by those who see a debate as a contest they must win. It's obvious, & nobody's going to fall for it. You should give it up.

What I have said is a linguistic error is making semantic mistakes, such as using adjectives which don't fit what is being described (see the quote from Chomsky, above). Brown does a lot of this.

I have also said that Brown makes ridiculous factual errors (though not using those words). Factual errors in matters not central to the story are not very important, unless they're completely stupid, such as the sun rising in the west, but there's a limit to the number which is tolerable, & there are classes of factual error which are so silly they're distracting. One such class is when the author makes a point of introducing something - and gets it wrong. The more specific the author is, the worse it is. For example, the 'enormous' cabin of a Falcon 2000EX business jet, with its Pratt & Whitney engines. Note that: not any old bizjet, not just a Dassault Falcon, not even just a Falcon 2000 - a Falcon 2000EX.  :facepalm:
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #171 on: 29 June, 2013, 06:39:11 pm »
Over description is lousy style. It's not a linguistic error, & I have never said that it is. You are misrepresenting what I have said, as you have at other times. This is a common tactic by those who see a debate as a contest they must win. It's obvious, & nobody's going to fall for it. You should give it up.

What I have said is a linguistic error is making semantic mistakes, such as using adjectives which don't fit what is being described (see the quote from Chomsky, above). Brown does a lot of this.
Right, but the only example I've heard of this is a "precarious body", and a "vaulted arch", which I'm not really sure why they fit into this category. I don't see why a body can't be precarious (she was about to topple off the ledge) or an arch can't be vaulted (an arch supporting a roof, something that looks like this) and anyway, you know what he means so it only takes anything away from the story if you're being a total purist - and if it's known what he means, who's to say why it shouldn't become perfectly valid - like I say, language evolves.

Quote
I have also said that Brown makes ridiculous factual errors (though not using those words). Factual errors in matters not central to the story are not very important, unless they're completely stupid, such as the sun rising in the west, but there's a limit to the number which is tolerable, & there are classes of factual error which are so silly they're distracting. One such class is when the author makes a point of introducing something - and gets it wrong. The more specific the author is, the worse it is. For example, the 'enormous' cabin of a Falcon 2000EX business jet, with its Pratt & Whitney engines. Note that: not any old bizjet, not just a Dassault Falcon, not even just a Falcon 2000 - a Falcon 2000EX.  :facepalm:
Again most people don't know what a Falcon 2000Ex is like so it doesn't take anything away from the story. In fact you probably didn't either before you googled it in order to prove him wrong.

Re: an apology
« Reply #172 on: 29 June, 2013, 11:23:02 pm »
Yawn. You're clutching at straws now. I've not quoted numerous examples of Brown's inappropriate descriptors because I'm damned if I'll subject my brain to more of that twaddle than is easily available online, but as I recall, it was one of the reasons my excursion into his works was so brief, & it seems to be often cited in criticisms of his work.

BTW, all I knew of the Falcon 2000EX (as distinct from other Falcon 2000s) last week was that  all recent Dassault Falcons have the same fuselage cross-section. But I knew the 2000 is a family of mid-size bizjets. True, not many people know or care about the size of bizjet cabins - but so what? It's one example of many, e.g. the Smart car, where he makes a point of giving a fuel consumption figure - and it's 15% of the true value, & obviously wrong to anyone with a car (& therefore some idea of what they burn) & half a brain.

I'm bored with this. Whether you really believe that Dan Brown is anything other than a hack with a certain facility for writing wordy bollocks (a useful talent, of course), or you're just playing silly buggers, you'll have to do without any further attempts of mine to enlighten you.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #173 on: 29 June, 2013, 11:50:02 pm »
Yawn. You're clutching at straws now. I've not quoted numerous examples of Brown's inappropriate descriptors because I'm damned if I'll subject my brain to more of that twaddle than is easily available online, but as I recall, it was one of the reasons my excursion into his works was so brief...

You mean because it will prove that you've read it ;D

You can't prove you're not a snob without proving yourself a hypocrite in the process. 

And don't claim you read it and didn't enjoy it because if you didn't enjoy it you should have stopped after the da vinci code.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #174 on: 30 June, 2013, 11:54:11 am »
And thus the trolling intent is writ large.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."