The TT Thread

[Karla]

Liverpool district have put a motion into the AGM to allow a recumbent category in TTs. As Matt said, plug it to your club if you can.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

There are some recumbent folk who would appreciate that motion going through.

[Karla]

I take it you've already messaged them all!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I have been working on it.

Audax UK is affiliated to CTT and I assume they are supporting this motion, given how any machine can be ridden in brevets.

[tatanab]

It is not widely known, but CTT allows recumbents in certain circumstances e.g. paralympic riders - in the rules under Competitor's Machine.  The rider has to get dispensation from the CTT.  Locally, we have a woman hand cyclist who has done this.

The fact that this already exists (and has done for some years) may help the argument to allow lay-z-boy machines in time trials.  I assume that fairings etc would still be forbidden - unless a special case is made for recumbents.

[Notfromrugby]

You can create new categories, but in the absence of participation, there isn't much point on race day. Tandems are a separate category, often there is a separate race for them, yet I have rarely seen more than one or two couples in a race and that includes when a separate race has been set up by the organiser.
I suppose the use of Spindata could bring about a recumbent or tandem or handbike ranking and that would be a step forward, maybe?

[drossall]

I may have remarked earlier in the thread that I rode another club's evening series for a few years, maybe two decades ago. The course was far from flat, with one really steep hill. One year, a guy on a recumbent handcycle rode. His times were pretty respectable too. No idea whether CTT approval was gained or the view was just taken that it wasn't an open, and all were welcome.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The fastest handcyclists hold close to 22mph in the flattest BHPC crits. No draft worth mentioning off them either.

Paracyclist trikies and handcyclists are allowed in some/ most time trials. Recumbents, not so much.

[Frank9755]

We've had a road bike category in our club TTs at Hillingdon in London for about 10 years. Nowadays it gets the majority of the entries.
We also have had the odd recumbent, although not enough to ever set up a separate category.

[Notfromrugby]

We've had a road bike category in our club TTs at Hillingdon in London for about 10 years. Nowadays it gets the majority of the entries.
We also have had the odd recumbent, although not enough to ever set up a separate category.

I am not surprised, I can't see many TT bikes being sold in the next few years. Between the looming recession and the staggering cost of new bikes, I think the N+1 will be a thing of the past very soon (if it's not already) and if I can only have one decent bike, it won't be a time trial one.

[mattc]

It is not widely known, but CTT allows recumbents in certain circumstances e.g. paralympic riders - in the rules under Competitor's Machine.  The rider has to get dispensation from the CTT.  Locally, we have a woman hand cyclist who has done this.

The fact that this already exists (and has done for some years) may help the argument to allow lay-z-boy machines in time trials.  I assume that fairings etc would still be forbidden - unless a special case is made for recumbents.

You assume correctly!

I for one didn't know about the "apply for Special Dispensation" until a month or so back when recumbents were first discussed on The Forum.

[mattc]

Based on yesterday's District meeting, this is 50:50 to go through:. The objections being almost entirely that they wouldn't be "safe" on many of our courses.
(Because  visibility, mainly. Some paranoia about downhill speeds too. )

[Notfromrugby]

Based on yesterday's District meeting, this is 50:50 to go through:. The objections being almost entirely that they wouldn't be "safe" on many of our courses.
(Because  visibility, mainly. Some paranoia about downhill speeds too. )

I don't understand why they are considered safe enough to ride on public roads, but not safe enough to race on public roads on the grounds of visibility...

[giropaul]

We've had a road bike category in our club TTs at Hillingdon in London for about 10 years. Nowadays it gets the majority of the entries.
We also have had the odd recumbent, although not enough to ever set up a separate category.

I am not surprised, I can't see many TT bikes being sold in the next few years. Between the looming recession and the staggering cost of new bikes, I think the N+1 will be a thing of the past very soon (if it's not already) and if I can only have one decent bike, it won't be a time trial one.

The money for manufacturers is in triathlon. Selling the same, or similar bikes for U.K. time trialling is a minor, if associated, market.
CTT don’t follow UCI rules on bikes of course, so triathlon bikes are attractive to U.K. time trial riders.

[Karla]

Based on yesterday's District meeting, this is 50:50 to go through:. The objections being almost entirely that they wouldn't be "safe" on many of our courses.
(Because  visibility, mainly. Some paranoia about downhill speeds too. )

I don't understand why they are considered safe enough to ride on public roads, but not safe enough to race on public roads on the grounds of visibility...

You're entirely correct ...

[Notfromrugby]

We've had a road bike category in our club TTs at Hillingdon in London for about 10 years. Nowadays it gets the majority of the entries.
We also have had the odd recumbent, although not enough to ever set up a separate category.

I am not surprised, I can't see many TT bikes being sold in the next few years. Between the looming recession and the staggering cost of new bikes, I think the N+1 will be a thing of the past very soon (if it's not already) and if I can only have one decent bike, it won't be a time trial one.

The money for manufacturers is in triathlon. Selling the same, or similar bikes for U.K. time trialling is a minor, if associated, market.
CTT don’t follow UCI rules on bikes of course, so triathlon bikes are attractive to U.K. time trial riders.

They are not the same bikes... but very similar fate... I don't see many triathlon bikes being sold in the next few years either. Most of my friends who do triathlon have invested 20 quid in a pair of aero bars and they get most of the benefits at a small fraction of the cost.
Besides, lots of triathlon events are draft-legal races, where only road bikes are allowed

[felstedrider]

There's 2 things that will probably mean I'm done with the sport.

1. Potential disappearance of the Mersey Roads.
2. Changing the format of the BBAR to remove the 12hr.

These are competitions I dreamt about as a Junior.   Probably the only bit of a sport I ever managed to get good at.

[Notfromrugby]

There's 2 things that will probably mean I'm done with the sport.

1. Potential disappearance of the Mersey Roads.
2. Changing the format of the BBAR to remove the 12hr.

These are competitions I dreamt about as a Junior.   Probably the only bit of a sport I ever managed to get good at.

With respect to no. 2. It's funny, because the rationale for changing the BBAR and bringing it in line with the women competition is down to interest... basically very few are prepared to ride a 12h and unless you have a realistic chance of winning the BBAR, you're not going to a 12h, just to say you've done the BBAR... obviously you are the exception.
Numbers show that long distances are less and less popular... at club level, you won't find many that have a 50 mile race in their calendar and some clubs don't even have 25 anymore.
The future is in shorter races, I can see more 5 in the future, they are more attractive to younger riders... kind of get it all out, rather than pace the effort.
Even from an organiser point of view, the effort involved in a very short TT is a fraction of that of a very long TT.
Incidentally, even at 50yo, my favourite distance is around 5 miles

[felstedrider]

There's 2 things that will probably mean I'm done with the sport.

1. Potential disappearance of the Mersey Roads.
2. Changing the format of the BBAR to remove the 12hr.

These are competitions I dreamt about as a Junior.   Probably the only bit of a sport I ever managed to get good at.

With respect to no. 2. It's funny, because the rationale for changing the BBAR and bringing it in line with the women competition is down to interest... basically very few are prepared to ride a 12h and unless you have a realistic chance of winning the BBAR, you're not going to a 12h, just to say you've done the BBAR... obviously you are the exception.
Numbers show that long distances are less and less popular... at club level, you won't find many that have a 50 mile race in their calendar and some clubs don't even have 25 anymore.
The future is in shorter races, I can see more 5 in the future, they are more attractive to younger riders... kind of get it all out, rather than pace the effort.
Even from an organiser point of view, the effort involved in a very short TT is a fraction of that of a very long TT.
Incidentally, even at 50yo, my favourite distance is around 5 miles

Just getting a BBAR certificate used to be a huge thing and I am very proud of the handful I have.   As you say, I'm pretty much the exception these days.   My abilities over shorter distances are nothing to write home about but I was briefly one of the better longer distance testers in the UK.   The sport will evolve or just disappear, but I won't change that.

[Notfromrugby]

There's 2 things that will probably mean I'm done with the sport.

1. Potential disappearance of the Mersey Roads.
2. Changing the format of the BBAR to remove the 12hr.

These are competitions I dreamt about as a Junior.   Probably the only bit of a sport I ever managed to get good at.

With respect to no. 2. It's funny, because the rationale for changing the BBAR and bringing it in line with the women competition is down to interest... basically very few are prepared to ride a 12h and unless you have a realistic chance of winning the BBAR, you're not going to a 12h, just to say you've done the BBAR... obviously you are the exception.
Numbers show that long distances are less and less popular... at club level, you won't find many that have a 50 mile race in their calendar and some clubs don't even have 25 anymore.
The future is in shorter races, I can see more 5 in the future, they are more attractive to younger riders... kind of get it all out, rather than pace the effort.
Even from an organiser point of view, the effort involved in a very short TT is a fraction of that of a very long TT.
Incidentally, even at 50yo, my favourite distance is around 5 miles

Just getting a BBAR certificate used to be a huge thing and I am very proud of the handful I have.   As you say, I'm pretty much the exception these days.   My abilities over shorter distances are nothing to write home about but I was briefly one of the better longer distance testers in the UK.   The sport will evolve or just disappear, but I won't change that.

The certificate itself is a huge error. It should not be based on average speed, which inevitably rewards the TT bikes and the fast courses, things that CTT should encourage people to move away from. I think a certificate should be issued regardless of average speed.

[Kim]

Based on yesterday's District meeting, this is 50:50 to go through:. The objections being almost entirely that they wouldn't be "safe" on many of our courses.
(Because  visibility, mainly. Some paranoia about downhill speeds too. )

If recumbents are a problem, have they considered the dangers of allowing the use of DF bicycles, given how poorly drivers tend to notice them, and their unstable geometry under heavy braking?   

[felstedrider]

There's 2 things that will probably mean I'm done with the sport.

1. Potential disappearance of the Mersey Roads.
2. Changing the format of the BBAR to remove the 12hr.

These are competitions I dreamt about as a Junior.   Probably the only bit of a sport I ever managed to get good at.

With respect to no. 2. It's funny, because the rationale for changing the BBAR and bringing it in line with the women competition is down to interest... basically very few are prepared to ride a 12h and unless you have a realistic chance of winning the BBAR, you're not going to a 12h, just to say you've done the BBAR... obviously you are the exception.
Numbers show that long distances are less and less popular... at club level, you won't find many that have a 50 mile race in their calendar and some clubs don't even have 25 anymore.
The future is in shorter races, I can see more 5 in the future, they are more attractive to younger riders... kind of get it all out, rather than pace the effort.
Even from an organiser point of view, the effort involved in a very short TT is a fraction of that of a very long TT.
Incidentally, even at 50yo, my favourite distance is around 5 miles

Just getting a BBAR certificate used to be a huge thing and I am very proud of the handful I have.   As you say, I'm pretty much the exception these days.   My abilities over shorter distances are nothing to write home about but I was briefly one of the better longer distance testers in the UK.   The sport will evolve or just disappear, but I won't change that.

The certificate itself is a huge error. It should not be based on average speed, which inevitably rewards the TT bikes and the fast courses, things that CTT should encourage people to move away from. I think a certificate should be issued regardless of average speed.

Have you got one ? 

[Notfromrugby]

There's 2 things that will probably mean I'm done with the sport.

1. Potential disappearance of the Mersey Roads.
2. Changing the format of the BBAR to remove the 12hr.

These are competitions I dreamt about as a Junior.   Probably the only bit of a sport I ever managed to get good at.

With respect to no. 2. It's funny, because the rationale for changing the BBAR and bringing it in line with the women competition is down to interest... basically very few are prepared to ride a 12h and unless you have a realistic chance of winning the BBAR, you're not going to a 12h, just to say you've done the BBAR... obviously you are the exception.
Numbers show that long distances are less and less popular... at club level, you won't find many that have a 50 mile race in their calendar and some clubs don't even have 25 anymore.
The future is in shorter races, I can see more 5 in the future, they are more attractive to younger riders... kind of get it all out, rather than pace the effort.
Even from an organiser point of view, the effort involved in a very short TT is a fraction of that of a very long TT.
Incidentally, even at 50yo, my favourite distance is around 5 miles

Just getting a BBAR certificate used to be a huge thing and I am very proud of the handful I have.   As you say, I'm pretty much the exception these days.   My abilities over shorter distances are nothing to write home about but I was briefly one of the better longer distance testers in the UK.   The sport will evolve or just disappear, but I won't change that.

The certificate itself is a huge error. It should not be based on average speed, which inevitably rewards the TT bikes and the fast courses, things that CTT should encourage people to move away from. I think a certificate should be issued regardless of average speed.

Have you got one ?

Nope... I have a road bike, 23mph for 12 hours is way beyond me. Maybe I can do a 50 at 23mph... at a push on a very fast course I might be able to do a 100...

[felstedrider]

There's 2 things that will probably mean I'm done with the sport.

1. Potential disappearance of the Mersey Roads.
2. Changing the format of the BBAR to remove the 12hr.

These are competitions I dreamt about as a Junior.   Probably the only bit of a sport I ever managed to get good at.

With respect to no. 2. It's funny, because the rationale for changing the BBAR and bringing it in line with the women competition is down to interest... basically very few are prepared to ride a 12h and unless you have a realistic chance of winning the BBAR, you're not going to a 12h, just to say you've done the BBAR... obviously you are the exception.
Numbers show that long distances are less and less popular... at club level, you won't find many that have a 50 mile race in their calendar and some clubs don't even have 25 anymore.
The future is in shorter races, I can see more 5 in the future, they are more attractive to younger riders... kind of get it all out, rather than pace the effort.
Even from an organiser point of view, the effort involved in a very short TT is a fraction of that of a very long TT.
Incidentally, even at 50yo, my favourite distance is around 5 miles

Just getting a BBAR certificate used to be a huge thing and I am very proud of the handful I have.   As you say, I'm pretty much the exception these days.   My abilities over shorter distances are nothing to write home about but I was briefly one of the better longer distance testers in the UK.   The sport will evolve or just disappear, but I won't change that.

The certificate itself is a huge error. It should not be based on average speed, which inevitably rewards the TT bikes and the fast courses, things that CTT should encourage people to move away from. I think a certificate should be issued regardless of average speed.

Have you got one ?

Nope... I have a road bike, 23mph for 12 hours is way beyond me. Maybe I can do a 50 at 23mph... at a push on a very fast course I might be able to do a 100...

The target for a certificate is 22mph.   If you can go a bit faster at 50 or 100 then a 20-21mph 12hr will get you there.   Looks like a decent challenge TBH.   I did my best 12hr with some aero equipment but before I had done any proper aero work.   It was on a course they don't use any more and there's probably only the Breckland that's that fast any more.   That one is out of service until 2024 earliest.

I do think a weighted average would be better as you can score very highly with quite a poor 12hr, but I can see why they did it that way.   It doesn't play to my strengths this way.  Again, this is probably all quite academic now.

[Notfromrugby]

22 is more manageable.
I think what is killing TT is Zwift and Co. You can replicate the effort without all the aggro. Also, people are getting used to Watt/kg, but Watt/cda seems something of a dark art, mixed with a big cash injection. W/kg is simple… train hard and get off the cake… improving your cda is very much trial and error and it involves a lot of strength training that not many want to do