The Male Gaze

[sam]

I really didn’t expect to be back! ("The cognescenti did, sam.") I’ve come in search of discussion deemed unacceptable at CycleChat. If you'd rather not have it here either, I apologise in advance.

The Conversation:

The "male gaze" invokes the sexual politics of the gaze and suggests a sexualised way of looking that empowers men and objectifies women. In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an "object" of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being "framed" by male desire.

Admit it guys, do you gaze malely?*



* I apologize unreservedly for that sentence on two counts: for saying "guys" as if you all were, and for making up a word that doesn't nicely roll off the tongue. (Google: "Did you mean "malery"? No I did not. But now that you mention it…


Mallory from Family Ties: "An unscholarly material girl, but kind-hearted and inoffensive, whose only main interests are shopping and boys.")

The following was on the BBC site. If you saw it, was your first thought related to Covid-19?


Subliminal message: testing isn't so bad. In fact you'll like it.

Because images cause immediate unfiltered reactions – to paraphrase Tina Turner, what’s the prefrontal cortex got to do with it? – I'll admit mine wasn’t. This may be because I haven’t yet had a swab up my nose and down my throat. (Not that either are virgin territory: I’ve had both nasal and gastric endoscopies, the later unsedated. Which was particularly fun.)

When you first heard "the male gaze" did your eyes glaze over, or did you want to book yourself into the nearest media studies or self-improvement course?


"I'll be your tutor today."

Although this is directed at men, I'm equally interested in the female response.


on edit: The link at the top leads to a page which I've since rewritten to give greater context to the CC mod's decision, so it might be a little confusing now until you scroll down. I didn't start this thread intending it to be about them.

[Tim Hall]

<follows link> Blimey. Who have you upset over there?

Any way, let me ponder on the subject in hand. I'll get back to you.

[barakta]

G'wan then, obligatory female response.

I'd say the male gaze is totally a thing. I think, but CBA looking it up, that the concept of a "X's gaze" comes from one of the Foucoults (not the pendulum one, another one).

It can be a useful model to think about how you/others/society view others and behave. I've seen the concept expanded thoughtfully in the white gaze, abled (non disabled) gaze and so on. It can be a useful way for a marginalised group to point out how they feel they are perceived by people who 'as a group' have tendencies to be oppressive towards them.

I wrote about the abled-gaze being turned back on itself last year when attending a friend's Judicial Review case last January. We had a group of ~15 disabled people, 8 or 9 using wheelchairs. As we walked (and in some cases wheeled) down the corridors we could see the reactions of the other court users (mostly legal types) to our presence in numbers. Wheelchair users are used to being stared at, but this time there was enough of 'us to stare back with a sense of power and not being outnumbered for a change. Upon describing the visuals of the stares as doors were held open for our "procession" (narrow corridors necessitated a bit of a procession) a blind companion, she started humming Chariots of Fire which merged into the Imperial March, which was highly entertaining (Even little old deaf me got those references).

More seriously, having enough visibly disabled people materially changed the way the government argued their case against my friend. One of their proposed arguments was "Only the claimant cares, this is not a wider issue for disabled people", they never used it.

At the time I wrote:

Supporters travelled <to London> from as far as South Wales and North Yorkshire on a sunny weekday January morning. Being part of this large group turned the abled-gaze back upon itself as we proudly and quietly took up space in the court room and corridors and made our presence felt.

One of the government’s proposed legal arguments was that the claimant was only taking the claim because she is excessively litigious. After seeing over 8 different wheelchair users, people with other visible impairments and non-disabled allies in court; this argument was never even raised. I think our point was made – through solidarity.

So yeah. I like it. It's a useful model/tool both as someone on the receiving end, and someone who can be on the 'gazing end' where say I as a white person 'gaze' at people of colour and what I can do to be a better ally/supporter and aware of those things that I don't experience, but are very real.

[sam]

let me ponder on the subject in hand. I'll get back to you.

Music to my ears. I’m already quite pleased with the response.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I think I do, I guess. As a teenager definitely and too much for too long after that but I may have grown up a bit since then. There were certainly some situations that I remember with shame. It will take some thought before I might be able to give a more coherent response.

[ian]

Is this about gazing at breasts? I'm just counting them. It takes me a while.

[Jurek]

I really didn’t expect to be back! ("The cognescenti did, sam.") I’ve come in search of discussion deemed unacceptable at CycleChat. If you'd rather not have it here either, I apologise in advance.

The Conversation:

The "male gaze" invokes the sexual politics of the gaze and suggests a sexualised way of looking that empowers men and objectifies women. In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an "object" of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being "framed" by male desire.

Admit it guys, do you gaze malely?*



* I apologize unreservedly for that sentence on two counts: for saying "guys" as if you all were, and for making up a word that doesn't nicely roll off the tongue. (Google: "Did you mean "malery"? No I did not. But now that you mention it…


Mallory from Family Ties: "An unscholarly material girl, but kind-hearted and inoffensive, whose only main interests are shopping and boys.")

The following was on the BBC site. If you saw it, was your first thought related to Covid-19?


Subliminal message: testing isn't so bad. In fact you'll like it.

Because images cause immediate unfiltered reactions – to paraphrase Tina Turner, what’s the prefrontal cortex got to do with it? – I'll admit mine wasn’t. This may be because I haven’t yet had a swab up my nose and down my throat. (Not that either are virgin territory: I’ve had both nasal and gastric endoscopies, the later unsedated. Which was particularly fun.)

When you first heard "the male gaze" did your eyes glaze over, or did you want to book yourself into the nearest media studies or self-improvement course?


"I'll be your tutor today."

Although this is directed at men, I'm equally interested in the female response.

Wow.
The mods have made the entire thread disappear.
I think that speaks volumes.....
ETA
I recently made my bezzie mate Jane aware of the Toyah Willcox & Robert Fripp Sunday Lockdown Lunch.
Jane confessed to struggling to watch it on account of the nipple content.
It isn't just a male ting.
Albeit the distraction may be there for different reasons.....

[ian]

People find other people sexually attractive. Perhaps we should get over it. Of course, after about the fifteen minutes or so, your propriety circuit should kick in. I don't think it's so much a man thing, it just that women have learned not to be so obvious about it. They do the same, their eyes linger.

And honestly, why value attractiveness any different to any other attribute, like cleverness, they're both down to chance and genetics.

One upon a time, when I was looking to cyclists to haunt, I believe I innocently posted something to Cycle Chat. The response time before that was deleted was measured in milliseconds. They value a 'broad readership' apparently. The utter pile of fucks.

[Beardy]

ETA
I recently made my bezzie mate Jane aware of the Toyah Willcox & Robert Fripp Sunday Lockdown Lunch.
Jane confessed to struggling to watch it on account of the nipple content.
It isn't just a male ting.
Albeit the distraction may be there for different reasons.....

I started to watch that recently, mainly due to the huge crush I had on Ms Wilcox in my youth. I hadn’t noticed the nipple content initially, but in recent weeks I’ve become much more aware of it and have rather cynically wondered how deliberate it is to boost viewing numbers.

[Jurek]

People find other people sexually attractive. Perhaps we should get over it. Of course, after about the fifteen minutes or so, your propriety circuit should kick in. I don't think it's so much a man thing, it just that women have learned not to be so obvious about it. They do the same, their eyes linger.

And honestly, why value attractiveness any different to any other attribute, like cleverness, they're both down to chance and genetics.

One upon a time, when I was looking to cyclists to haunt, I believe I innocently posted something to Cycle Chat. The response time before that was deleted was measured in milliseconds. They value a 'broad readership' apparently. The utter pile of fucks.

This^
I'm 100% certain that I've been "checked out" by members of the opposite agenda when I've been in the stupormarket in lycra. No, it isn't just wishful thinking, it is downright staring.

The big difference is that I do not find it threatening. But that is probably material for a different thread.

[Jurek]

ETA
I recently made my bezzie mate Jane aware of the Toyah Willcox & Robert Fripp Sunday Lockdown Lunch.
Jane confessed to struggling to watch it on account of the nipple content.
It isn't just a male ting.
Albeit the distraction may be there for different reasons.....

I started to watch that recently, mainly due to the huge crush I had on Ms Wilcox in my youth. I hadn’t noticed the nipple content initially, but in recent weeks I’ve become much more aware of it and have rather cynically wondered how deliberate it is to boost viewing numbers.

The nipple content isn't present in every episode.
It is absent from a fair few of them.

[FifeingEejit]

People find other people sexually attractive. Perhaps we should get over it. Of course, after about the fifteen minutes or so, your propriety circuit should kick in. I don't think it's so much a man thing, it just that women have learned not to be so obvious about it. They do the same, their eyes linger.

To some extent this, people watching in a moderately busy pub will quickly identify that women on the look out for a mate (or just looking for the hell of it) do the same, the main difference there is the body parts grabbing attention (Arse, Legs and Arms although in the later case mine are too weedy to have elicited a stare of noticeable duration or drunken molestation like the formers have).

The other side includes unwanted, excessive and threatening attention amongst others, that's also genderless.

What Barakta describes is different, there is no involvement of a function of the continued human dominance of this planet involved at all.

[Hot Flatus]

I think the OP is really about the proprietorial attitude of some/many men towards women, and that they think it is OK to leer at women, stocking up the wankbank.

[Beardy]

The way I see it is that humans initially look at other humans as potential mates and so physical appraisal is obviously the first act when meeting others. That’s just nature. We have (mostly) risen above the mere animal had hold ourselves to higher standards and so do not act upon those first baser instincts, but then involve ourselves in greater courtship rituals.
The issue is that even though he have moved on as a species, men are still to the most part physically bigger and stronger than women and thus what would mostly bounce of men, women can understandably find it threatening. We can’t change human nature, nor would we want to, but that doesn’t mean that we should continue to strive to treat each other with respect and equity.

[ian]

Well, there's serious serial killer staring and a swift enumeration of desirability. I'm not sure there's a huge middle ground between the two, or much call to confuse them.

[ian]

I think I'm a bit scared of nipples.

[hellymedic]

I think that’s quite a male viewpoint. My wife was a teacher. When dressing for school she made sure her clothing wasn’t too “nipply”. But that was teaching adolescents. Out of school it mattered not a jot, she just doesn’t  think about it. It’s not as if she has any control over them. Something we males can empathise with.
But, yeah, I do notice.

Adolescent boys are hormone-crazed priapic volcanoes.

I'm sure your wife was wise, if nothing else than to give her subject teaching a chance to stick.

[rafletcher]

Indeed. And the male teachers had the trial of year 9 girls. My wife was invited to a bbq hosted by some year 9’s. She took me along. They didn’t look like that in school 

[ian]

It's a valid point, I think the average boy has an erection that lasts from age twelve to thirty-five. After that, it starts to relax.

[Wowbagger]

It's a shame that Charlotte & Julian no longer seem to visit this forum. I'd be interested in their comments.

On my first World Naked Bike Ride, the three of us rode round together, starkers. We disrobed at about the same time and although i can't speak for them, I definitely recall glancing downwards towards their crotches. It was unconscious. I suspect they did likewise but I wasn't watching. I was trying to remove my cycling shorts without falling over.

Once that formality was over, we just rode round on our bikes and, because of the physical contact that a lady makes with a saddle, no further opportunities presented themselves until we had finished, when we sat about on the grass, still naked, and at that point it was no different from being dressed. We had a natter, and looked at each other's faces as we were speaking. I felt that there was a rapport between us which hadn't existed before we were naked.

Some years later, after a Dun Run, there was a fairly large group of us who camped just off the beach and had a mass skinny dip the following morning. As I emerged from the water after a very refreshing pre-breakfast swim, Charlotte addressed me in a loud voice from about 30 yards away: "Cold, Peter?"

[Poacher]

I really didn’t expect to be back! ("The cognescenti did, sam.") I’ve come in search of discussion deemed unacceptable at CycleChat. If you'd rather not have it here either, I apologise in advance.

The Conversation:

The "male gaze" invokes the sexual politics of the gaze and suggests a sexualised way of looking that empowers men and objectifies women. In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an "object" of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being "framed" by male desire.

Admit it guys, do you gaze malely?*



* I apologize unreservedly for that sentence on two counts: for saying "guys" as if you all were, and for making up a word that doesn't nicely roll off the tongue. (Google: "Did you mean "malery"? No I did not. But now that you mention it…


Mallory from Family Ties: "An unscholarly material girl, but kind-hearted and inoffensive, whose only main interests are shopping and boys.")

The following was on the BBC site. If you saw it, was your first thought related to Covid-19?


Subliminal message: testing isn't so bad. In fact you'll like it.

Because images cause immediate unfiltered reactions – to paraphrase Tina Turner, what’s the prefrontal cortex got to do with it? – I'll admit mine wasn’t. This may be because I haven’t yet had a swab up my nose and down my throat. (Not that either are virgin territory: I’ve had both nasal and gastric endoscopies, the later unsedated. Which was particularly fun.)

When you first heard "the male gaze" did your eyes glaze over, or did you want to book yourself into the nearest media studies or self-improvement course?


"I'll be your tutor today."

Although this is directed at men, I'm equally interested in the female response.

I suspect a mod is jealous of your erudition and has been waiting for an excuse to punish you!
FWIW I consider you to be high in the top 10 of interesting contributors over there, not least for the "I'm an American - ask me anything" thread. Since my infrequent posts tend to be throwaway one-liners, with the occasional blurred photo thrown in, I really appreciate the amount of effort you put into yours.
I'd start a campaign of insurrection if I thought it would do any good! 

[fd3]

I think the OP is really about the proprietorial attitude of some/many men towards women, and that they think it is OK to leer at women, stocking up the wankbank.

Thanks, I was trying to work that out.
I guess context is important (are you in a discotheque or cashing a check at a bank?) and I guess there's a grey area between eyeing someone up and objectifying them (and what you are perceived as doing).
Is this just a male gaze phenomenon?  I recognise that popular culture and advertising sells based on objectifying women (because objectifying men doesn't sell), so does that mean that women don't?

[quixoticgeek]

Although this is directed at men, I'm equally interested in the female response.

Women's response. Women. The word you're looking for is women.

This is something that *REALLY* pisses me off. The way women are often referred to as females. I can't hear someone say it without thinking of Ferengi from Star Trek.

Why is it in the sentence above it's men, but females? Why are women described using a term more from science, than every day language. When a woman wins a race, it's "First female to win race!" You never hear "x win's males race" or "X is the second male to win this race".

It's always Man/men. But female/females. It really bugs me.

Female is an adjective. Female what? female baboon? Female fruit fly? If you use the word female, you should include  the subject that you are using that adjective to describe.

One of the simplistic things people can do to be more inclusive, is to use better, more inclusive language. Calling women female(s) without that subject is really exclusionary.

That is the response from this woman.

J

[fd3]

um, maybe it should be directed at males, but then possibly the predatory nature requires a man(not boy)'s gaze whereas both women and girls could be the recipients and therefore have an opinion?
Is your response based purely on the term "female" or is it the juxtaposition of "men" with "female"?

[quixoticgeek]

Is your response based purely on the term "female" or is it the juxtaposition of "men" with "female"?

It's a bit of both really.

Grammatically, it feels wrong if you were to say "Fastest male" and "Fastest female". If feels clinical, and also in-specific. Was the male a baboon an the female a gorilla? "Fastest male human" and "Fastest female human" would be entirely acceptable. But noone uses it as such, that's far too scientific. Too clinical.

Someone's going to come along and say "But that's just how language works, stop being a prescriptive linguist". These are also likely to be people who use guys as a gender neutral. No it's not. Even if the dictionary (descriptive linguistics), says that it is how it is sometimes used.

I am not a guy, if you say "guys" I will assume I am not included*. When I do talks at tech conferences about diversity and inclusion, this is the point where I reinforce this by saying "If you think that guys is gender neutral, tell me, how many guys have you dated?". Which tends to get the message across.

J


* Once at work the boss said, "can you guys make sure you clean the kitchen before you leave" Everyone got up to go clean the kitchen. "Aren't you helping?" asked a colleague. "No" I said "He said guys, that doesn't include me." And went back to my work.