Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 11:07:13 am

Title: A new approach to road design.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 11:07:13 am

In a rare moment of potentially sensible thinking coming from Westminster, it looks like there is an intention to do a consultation on a review of the highway code and the way our roads are designed, with an intent to make it a bit more pro bike.


https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/review-of-the-highway-code-to-improve-road-safety-for-cyclists-pedestrians-and-horse-riders

This looks promising:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ed_jACDX0AATSZx?format=jpg&name=large)

Forbes article on the various bits related to it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/07/27/well-build-thousands-of-miles-of-protected-cycleways-pledges-boris-johnson/

So do we think anything will actually come of this? is this really a rare case of genuine competence?

or will it just be forgotten when the newscycle ends...

J



Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: trekker12 on 28 July, 2020, 11:16:31 am
It's fine reviewing the highway code but unless there is some kind of regular compulsary refresher* no one is going to dash out and get themselves a copy.

*AKA war on the motorist
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: hatler on 28 July, 2020, 11:22:58 am
Oooo. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I will be poring over that later on.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: hatler on 28 July, 2020, 11:31:36 am
Blimey. First image of a bike is a recumbent !!!!
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Jaded on 28 July, 2020, 11:43:30 am
Don't like the use of 'Must'. Most of the country has no possibility of complying with those 'musts'.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 11:48:08 am


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2020/jul/28/what-do-the-highway-code-proposals-mean-for-pedestrians-and-cyclists

Laura Laker in the guardian explaining it a bit too.

J
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: The French Tandem on 28 July, 2020, 11:51:40 am
"Routes should be designed only by those who have experienced the road on a cycle".

Very interesting point. Are they going to fire all the current road design staff, and hire cyclists? If only!

A
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 12:16:04 pm
"Routes should be designed only by those who have experienced the road on a cycle".

Very interesting point. Are they going to fire all the current road design staff, and hire cyclists? If only!

This is a double edge sword. They could recruit a road designer who rides around on an bakfiets with 2 kids in the front... or they could get some MAMIL who rides a Pinarello and wears a full matching Sky pro kit.

J
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 July, 2020, 12:42:59 pm
Why are design principles for cycle lanes being put in the Highway Code? HC is about using roads (and cycle paths and so on) not building them.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Kim on 28 July, 2020, 01:24:19 pm
"Routes should be designed only by those who have experienced the road on a cycle".

Very interesting point. Are they going to fire all the current road design staff, and hire cyclists? If only!

This is a double edge sword. They could recruit a road designer who rides around on an bakfiets with 2 kids in the front... or they could get some MAMIL who rides a Pinarello and wears a full matching Sky pro kit.

Or worse, an experienced mountain biker.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: grams on 28 July, 2020, 01:31:40 pm
I don't like the "bikes are vehicles" item on that chart. It appeared in the London design standards at the same time as the Embankment and North South superhighways and those are overengineered and still feel intimidating to novice riders, and also encourages the "dump cyclists back into traffic when things get hard" principle. I much prefer the Dutch "bikes are fast pedestrians" principle. There's plenty of good shared ped/bike lanes.

The highway code changes aren't great either once you look at the wording. The proposed new wording of rule 66 is:
Quote
[cyclists’ should] ride in single file when drivers wish to overtake and it is safe to let them do so. When riding in larger groups on narrow lanes, it is sometimes safer to ride two abreast

I expect drivers to memorise the first few words and forget the rest. No definition of what's considered safe (and by who) makes it worse than useless.

And is "narrow lanes" talking about vehicle lanes or country lanes? Two abreast simply doesn't work on narrow country lanes if there are non-negligible numbers of oncoming cars. It works far better on two lane roads.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 July, 2020, 01:48:10 pm
"Bikes are fast pedestrians" leads to 90-degree bends within a 1-metre radius, bollards and step-over barriers, wiggles round trees and lampposts and other shit which is frankly impassable to many cyclists.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 01:50:12 pm

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/904088/cycle-infrastructure-design-ltn-1-20.pdf

LTN 1/20, is the new design guides btw, if anyone wanted to read what they are offering.

I don't like the "bikes are vehicles" item on that chart. It appeared in the London design standards at the same time as the Embankment and North South superhighways and those are overengineered and still feel intimidating to novice riders, and also encourages the "dump cyclists back into traffic when things get hard" principle. I much prefer the Dutch "bikes are fast pedestrians" principle. There's plenty of good shared ped/bike lanes.

The highway code changes aren't great either once you look at the wording. The proposed new wording of rule 66 is:
Quote
[cyclists’ should] ride in single file when drivers wish to overtake and it is safe to let them do so. When riding in larger groups on narrow lanes, it is sometimes safer to ride two abreast

I expect drivers to memorise the first few words and forget the rest. No definition of what's considered safe (and by who) makes it worse than useless.

And is "narrow lanes" talking about vehicle lanes or country lanes? Two abreast simply doesn't work on narrow country lanes if there are non-negligible numbers of oncoming cars. It works far better on two lane roads.

How does that factor in with what's on page 76 of LTN1/20 ?

"Bikes are fast pedestrians" leads to 90-degree bends within a 1-metre radius, bollards and step-over barriers, wiggles round trees and lampposts and other shit which is frankly impassable to many cyclists.

Not the way the Dutch interpret it...

J
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 01:58:54 pm

Reading through that design document is fun...

Page 124... figure 10.41... are they smoking crack?

J
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: drossall on 28 July, 2020, 02:05:28 pm
This is a double edge sword. They could recruit a road designer who rides around on an bakfiets with 2 kids in the front... or they could get some MAMIL who rides a Pinarello and wears a full matching Sky pro kit.
There's some sense in that point. What's needed for busy traffic in London (possibly separation) is probably different from what's needed approaching a town from the country (normal use of the country lanes, with a sneaky 10-metre cut-through into a residential area, while cars go around the local megabout). And arguably the variation in needs of cyclists (speeds from 5 to 25mph i.e. five times variation on average roads, and vastly varying preferences for path vs road proper) is much greater than that of drivers (all somewhat constrained to the same speed because it's the only way traffic can work). So a one-size-fits-all approach written for major cities probably won't work across the country. And coronavirus has shown that a big reduction in traffic levels can increase cycling without any road-provision changes.

But nonetheless, it sounds really positive. I'll read up later.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 July, 2020, 02:06:20 pm
The LTN was prepared two years ago. I don't know if its release now is specifically to coincide with HC revisions or just chance.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Kim on 28 July, 2020, 02:06:54 pm
I don't like the "bikes are vehicles" item on that chart. It appeared in the London design standards at the same time as the Embankment and North South superhighways and those are overengineered and still feel intimidating to novice riders, and also encourages the "dump cyclists back into traffic when things get hard" principle. I much prefer the Dutch "bikes are fast pedestrians" principle. There's plenty of good shared ped/bike lanes.

It's a tricky balance.

You have to recognise that bicycles need forward momentum to be stable, that cycles (particularly non-standard ones) have a limited turning circle, that wheeled users want flat, smooth, clean srfaces, and that anything travelling above pedestrian speed requires a decent sight-line for safety around other users.

You have to recognise that most people won't cycle if it involves mixing with any but the tamest of motor traffic.

You have to recognise the legitimate concerns of pedestrians, including those with disabilities that make mixing with cycle traffic scary (acknowledging that much of the BRITISH fear of people using bikes is irrational), those who find kerbs a barrier to access, and those who require kerbs to navigate and would greatly prefer it if everything were controlled by traffic lights.

You have to deal with massive political opposition from rabid taxi drivers, business owners who want somewhere to park their motor vehicle, and Daily Mail types afraid that cycle infra will give their house prices cancer.

And it would be nice if those cyclists who are happy to use the road were able to access the cycle infrastructure without having to dismount to transition between the two.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 02:09:19 pm
And it would be nice if those cyclists who are happy to use the road were able to access the cycle infrastructure without having to dismount to transition between the two.

That would be nice. I had to get off and walk my bike this morning. In central European Bike capital. They even had 3 goons in hivis to enforce the cyclists dismount to walk across a bridge, and get back on again!

J
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Kim on 28 July, 2020, 02:12:35 pm
Acknowledging that BRITISH cycle infrastructure is usually a trap, it's annoying when you come off a roundabout on some busy-but-narrow road and see a vaguely decent cycle path alongside, but the only way to access it is to stop (holding up the cars) and shuffle your bike up a kerb.

Yes, there was probably a dropped kerb for pedestrians crossing at the roundabout, but you were in roundabout mode for that and hadn't noticed the cycle path yet...

More generally, since the majority of cyclists are going to be locals familiar with the infra, lack of consideration for people joining and leaving cycle routes is common.  We're not all commuting!
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 02:14:15 pm
Acknowledging that BRITISH cycle infrastructure is usually a trap, it's annoying when you come off a roundabout on some busy-but-narrow road and see a vaguely decent cycle path alongside, but the only way to access it is to stop (holding up the cars) and shuffle your bike up a kerb.

Yes, there was probably a dropped kerb for pedestrians crossing at the roundabout, but you were in roundabout mode for that and hadn't noticed the cycle path yet...

But you just bunny hop the rear wheel up on your pinarrello and keep going surely?

J
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: orienteer on 28 July, 2020, 02:43:09 pm
One of the biggest deterrents for me to use cycle paths is that they are usually laid to footpath rather than road standards, which are uncomfortable at more than 10mph, even on my Moultons with suspension.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 July, 2020, 02:45:27 pm
One of the biggest deterrents for me to use cycle paths is that they are usually laid to footpath rather than road standards, which are uncomfortable at more than 10mph, even on my Moultons with suspension.

That's covered in the LTN. Assuming it's actually obeyed...

J
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Socks on 28 July, 2020, 02:47:41 pm
I hope my pessimism in relation to the knowledge and motivation of my local highways engineers is misplaced.  Based on their current work, I don't think they meet number 20 of the core principles - "All designers of cycle schemes must experience the roads as a cyclist".  Hopefully this will help to change their mindset, the link to funding may provide an incentive even where there is currently very little interest.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: trekker12 on 28 July, 2020, 03:03:01 pm
Quite frankly as a road user in both cars and on bicycles it is my experience not many UK road engineers are interested in much more than their own profit margins rather than an adequate standard of highway or cycle way.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: TimC on 28 July, 2020, 03:03:16 pm
I hope my pessimism in relation to the knowledge and motivation of my local highways engineers is misplaced.  Based on their current work, I don't think they meet number 20 of the core principles - "All designers of cycle schemes must experience the roads as a cyclist".  Hopefully this will help to change their mindset, the link to funding may provide an incentive even where there is currently very little interest.

With much of modern urban road design, it's debatable whether any of the designers drive either!

I've downloaded the document (all 193 pages) and I'm slowly working my way through it. Much of it is refreshingly decent, at least in intent, and it shows examples of poor infrastructure (ie what not to do) reasonably well. At the moment, my main concern is the way the funding bit is worded, which suggests that the DfT may 'ask' for funding to be returned if local road schemes are not in compliance with the LTN. Unless I haven't got there yet, it doesn't seem to provide much disincentive for non-compliance.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 July, 2020, 03:31:38 pm
At least one of the authors of the LTN is an audaxer.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: arabella on 28 July, 2020, 05:31:44 pm
I hope my pessimism in relation to the knowledge and motivation of my local highways engineers is misplaced.  Based on their current work, I don't think they meet number 20 of the core principles - "All designers of cycle schemes must experience the roads as a cyclist".  Hopefully this will help to change their mindset, the link to funding may provide an incentive even where there is currently very little interest.
Agreed.  At the moment I wouldn't even say that highways engineers even experience the pavements as pedestrians
Still less as pushers of pushchairs or with wheelchairs
[memories of trying to push a pushchair and 40kg worth of assorted children etc along a high kerbed pavement replete with dropped kerbs for those poor ickle motor vehicles to crawl into their private drives.  Why can't we raise the roads rather than drop the pavement, and make all road intersections up to pavement height to facilitated wheeled pedestrian progress.
ie design for the MOST vulnerable and then add in the next most vulnerable where it doesn't etc..  With private motorised traffic as an afterthought.]
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: nobby on 28 July, 2020, 06:02:42 pm

So do we think anything will actually come of this? is this really a rare case of genuine competence?

or will it just be forgotten when the newscycle ends...
J
I see the Forbes article is written by Carlton Reid and his credentials as an advocate for cycling cannot be questioned.
I'm not sure that this government is intending to work to news cycles.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: MattH on 28 July, 2020, 06:03:21 pm
Why can't we raise the roads rather than drop the pavement, and make all road intersections up to pavement height to facilitated wheeled pedestrian progress.

That is common in some foreign parts - I first came across it in Sweden. It makes a big difference, especially combined with motorists actually giving way to cycles crossing the side road (and getting really confused when you stop to give way to them, because you are riding in the English mindset). The raised road emphasises that there is a change in priorities.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: SoreTween on 28 July, 2020, 08:50:15 pm
Are they going to fire all the current road design staff, and hire cyclists?
Hopefully.
(click to show/hide)
.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: nobby on 29 July, 2020, 09:48:42 am
I sat as a CTC rep on a few of the local council's Highways committees.
In general the council roads officers were not cyclists, or pedestrians, and did not live in the borough. Their knowledge of the city was based on maps and site visits.
They did, however listen to us a cycling reps and also the rep from Safer Streets and there were small improvements.
I gave up on it because the local councillor assigned to the committee, allegedly a cyclist, supported the closure of a cycle lane through an underpass because, "We will be getting a Debenhams!"
The underpass was filled in and an extra lane accommodated on the ring road.
The crash of 2008 came and the development for the Debenhams didn't.

When Debenhams did arrive some years later, in an existing shopping centre, it only lasted two years and folded for lack of footfall. Doesn't compensate for the loss of the lane through the underpass but it helps.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: fd3 on 29 July, 2020, 11:48:05 pm
I was at a Birmingham meeting standing in for FoE where they were reviewing their 1970 (IIRC) plan for cycling.  I spent a good few hours reading through the document and highlighting everything that was promised but never happened.  In the meeting they started off by laughing at all the promises they made, how could they possibly have considered doing any of that.
...
Hopefully this time it will be different, but I expect it to go the way of Boris' other plans and promises.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: nobby on 02 August, 2020, 02:48:09 pm
I've finally finished reading and commenting and the only thing that concerns me is what I read as an acceptance that there will be vehicles on the road with blind spots that hide vulnerable road users.
I'd have thought, but do not know, that there would be sufficient technology available to correct blind spots.
Title: Re: A new approach to road design.
Post by: grams on 03 August, 2020, 12:07:42 pm
I've finally finished reading and commenting and the only thing that concerns me is what I read as an acceptance that there will be vehicles on the road with blind spots that hide vulnerable road users.
I'd have thought, but do not know, that there would be sufficient technology available to correct blind spots.

There are no blind spots on an HGV fitted with the appropriate number of mirrors (which is a legal requirement in London), although that may introduce the problem of there being an overwhelming number of mirrors to check.

There are also cheap camera and sensor systems that more enlightened projects and companies spec out their trucks with. So blindspots are a choice.

(tbh The blindspots on HGVs with the legal minimum were massively overstated and used as an excuse for shit impatient driving the same companies that kept killing people could regularly be seen doing)