Taking children out on school trips. (Moan)

[gordon taylor]

I'm taking ten twelve-year-olds out tomorrow morning to a "Maths Puzzle Activity" at the local university - organised by their staff. We're going in the school minibus, I'm a qualified driver, the campus is three miles away and this "broadening horizons" event is wholly within school hours. I've done these events before, the children will have a great time; it's a valuable experience for all concerned.

The paperwork is ridiculous. Each parent/carer has had to complete two sides of an A4 permission slip and medical form. I also have nine different forms to complete, covering:

School permission
Learning objectives, including links to the National Curriculum, the Numeracy Strategy and god knows what else.
Risk Assessment (site)
Risk assessment (travel)
Inclusion (so I don't choose all the pleasant children)
Lesson cover plans (three sides of A4 x 3)
Finance (nil) and contingency (nil.) I'll top up the tank myself to save more arseing about.
School canteen notification and student dietry needs assessment.
Student contact details (minimum of two phone numbers)...

Thankfully the university has provided a five-page generic risk assessment for their site, so I just need to photocopy that several times. Unfortunately, the children will be working with volunteer undergraduate students, who haven't been CRB checked, so they obviously need to be accompanied at all times.

I'm close to writing "This is fucking ridiculous" in red felt pen across several pieces of paper tonight.

Thank you for listening.

[hairyhippy]

Well done for sticking with it.

[Adrian]

I'm close to writing "This is fucking ridiculous" in red felt pen across several pieces of paper tonight.

Just write "life is not safe, thankfully, get over it" instead

[David Martin]

My thesis is that CRB checks are harming children more than they are preventing them coming to harm.

..d

[Frenchie]

Crazy.

Well done Gordon.

I won't say much more because I get equally frustrated at times.

[Wowbagger]

My thesis is that CRB checks are harming children more than they are preventing them coming to harm.

..d

I think I'd agree with that.

[Cyclops]

Speaking as the parent of school age children I think you'll find most of us think this endless form filling is bloody riduculous as well. In one week I had to fill in three different permission slips and medical history forms because my daughter was:

• walking half a mile to the local library
• going swimming at sports centre
• drawing pictures of different types of houses in area around school

When she went to a residential outdoor centre for 2 days you'd have thought she was enlisting in some sort of highly dangerous experimental rocket testing judging by the amount of pieces of paper exchanged between home and school.

[nicknack]

We have the litigation mad US to thank for this.

Cheers! 

[mrcharly-YHT]

That's just bad admin.

You don't need a separate form for every trip. One medical form per year, and a blanket form for school trips. Then the parents just need to sign a standard letter for each trip.

I'm in two minds about CRB checks. I've heard some right horror stories.

[Regulator]

My thesis is that CRB checks are harming children more than they are preventing them coming to harm.

..d

Sorry - as someone who deals extensively with CRB checks I would disagree.  It is not the checks themselves that are the problem - but the stupidity of those administering the systems that use CRB checks - the employers in particular. 

With a well administered system then there should be few if any problems and certainly no increased risk to children.

[clarion]

Absolutely.  I was wondering how to counter that suggestion, and you've done it.

[gordon taylor]

I'm back!
The trip was a huge success and the children loved it, especially the buffet lunch in the lecturers' dining room. All learning and social objectives were met, IMHO.

The permission and medical slips were filed upon our return. We have to keep them for seven years, apparently.

[peliroja]

My parents often recount how they used to take big groups of school kids (my Dad used to be a geography teacher) camping, rock climbing and hiking in the Lakes. No forms to fill in, and all had a whale of a time.

[gonzo]

Makes you wonder if disassociating ourselves from EU human rights law would be a good idea. We could then set our own rules and tell people who try to sue organisations for utterly stupid reasons where to shove it.

[Jezza]

We have the litigation mad US to thank for this.

Makes you wonder if disassociating ourselves from EU human rights law would be a good idea.

I reckon it's all the fault of the British, myself. 

[Regulator]

Makes you wonder if disassociating ourselves from EU human rights law would be a good idea. We could then set our own rules and tell people who try to sue organisations for utterly stupid reasons where to shove it.

Your prejudices are showing Gonzo.


Human rights law and people suing organisations for utterly stupid reasons have nothing to do with each other.  The litigation culture has been around for a lot longer than the Human Rights Act 1998.

Please remove the spittle from the edge of your mouth, put down your copy of the Daily Wail and aim correctly next time... 

[gonzo]

Your prejudices are showing Gonzo.

Who am I prejudiced against?

Human rights law and people suing organisations for utterly stupid reasons have nothing to do with each other.  The litigation culture has been around for a lot longer than the Human Rights Act 1998.

I'm not convinced, but then again, it'll probably take someone with similar views to mine explaining why this i the case before I'll change my views.

[gordon taylor]

I think you are after the wrong target, Gonzo, sorry.

All of the paperwork I had to complete this week was generated from within the organisation - the school and/or the local education authority. Just this week, a colleague helpfully(?) produced a giant flowchart (that is, of course, another piece of paper...) to try to explain the intricacies of the different types of paperwork and permission needed for different types of trip.

Working parties of genuinely worthy and conscientious people sit around and ponder what might go wrong and how the organisation can be best placed to meet the parental/media/legal maelstrom if something should go wrong.

I've been taking children on school trips for nearly twenty years and the increased paperwork simply reflects the changing attitudes of our wider society. 

[Regulator]

Your prejudices are showing Gonzo.

Who am I prejudiced against?

The UK has been bound by Human Rights law since 1966, when it became a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil & Political Rights.  So why the reference to "EU human rights law" when the UK has been bound long before the EU convention rights were introduced through the Human Rights Act 1998?

[annie]

I can sympathise from a parent's point of view, a volunteer at the school and also as a Parent Governor.  The paperwork I brought home from a recent Governor's meeting was terrifying, so many new Acts, policies, procedures and guidance to read, digest, agree and implement.

I regularly have to fill in forms for JC, for the school, for the playscheme for children with special needs, for numerous other medical establishments.

What stops me from moaning is when I come to fill in the Disability Living Allowance forms, everything else just pales into insignificance.

Things aren't going to improve over night.  So a couple more forms to fill in isn't going to end my world or make me stamp my feet.

[Wowbagger]

I'm not convinced, but then again, it'll probably take someone with similar views to mine explaining why this i the case before I'll change my views.

Had you been drinking before you wrote that, Gonzo?

[gonzo]

Had you been drinking before you wrote that, Gonzo?

No. Working. Minimum 14 hour days for about 10 days. I think it's been that long. I only know that we're near the start of the week as Chris Evans show stopped for the weekend and has now started again!

Perhaps I ought to stop posting on these board until I've been to sleep before midnight eh?

[David Martin]

My thesis is that CRB checks are harming children more than they are preventing them coming to harm.

..d

Sorry - as someone who deals extensively with CRB checks I would disagree.  It is not the checks themselves that are the problem - but the stupidity of those administering the systems that use CRB checks - the employers in particular. 

With a well administered system then there should be few if any problems and certainly no increased risk to children.

I think you miss the point. It isn't that people are being certified by CRB as safe (or, more correctly, not known to be unsafe at the point of enquiry) but that the cost and hassle of getting all the paperwork lined up and in order, and the fearmongering and misinformation that goes with it due to, well, people being people and not all having the understanding of a first class graduate.

So they decide that, actually, they are far better off not volunteering to help the local scout troop, kids club,  cycle club etc. or even to take a few of the klids friends out on a trip. The losers are the kids who stay indoors being babysat by CBBC instead of getting the chance to experience managed risk.

And then they turn adult overnight and suddenly come out of the bubble.

That is the perniciousness of the current system. It is unintended but it is there. Our society is the poorer because of it.

..d

[nuttycyclist]

We have the litigation mad US to thank for this.

Makes you wonder if disassociating ourselves from EU human rights law would be a good idea.

I reckon it's all the fault of the British, myself. 

I don't think it's a fault of the British, but more the fault of paperwork loving people and misunderstanding.

All my working life I've battled people who don't understand something placed in front of them, and as a result generate more paperwork and so increase the spiralling nature of bureaucracy. 

[Jaded]

We have the litigation mad US to thank for this.

Cheers! 

It is nothing to do with the US.

SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!

(sorry, it sells papers)