Author Topic: [LEL17] LEL Suggestions Box  (Read 48835 times)

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #275 on: 28 August, 2017, 12:48:18 pm »
There's a terrible amount of prejudice about gluten intolerance. Some people show little tolerance for it, as this egregious example on Youtube demonstrates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oht9AEq1798

Those sort of attitudes are fairly well embedded in the older generation. I witnessed a volunteer's response to one rider's profile. 'Fixed and Vegan! Is there no end to his twattery?'

I can see where those attitudes come from. They're embedded in the post-war world, where corned beef, tinned salmon, cling peaches, bartlett pear halves, rice pudding and evaporated milk, probably with a slice of bread with marge made from whale oil, were part of a balanced diet.

Audax is a visit to the past. The future will be different, when gluten-intolerant vegans come to the fore as volunteers, and produce delicious dishes which can satisfy the whole of the field. Perhaps all those wheat-eating carnivores will then embrace better nutrition in their home life.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #276 on: 28 August, 2017, 02:05:20 pm »
I am not coeliac.
I would not be happy if I paid £whatever for an 'all-included' package and found myself leaving controls hungry.
I do appreciate the need for the economies of scale that paying upfront can bring.
There are people with coeliac disease who have done LEL.
I don't know how they feel.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #277 on: 28 August, 2017, 02:16:15 pm »
What I'm pretty settled on is that if I'm running LEL2021, there will be a ballot rather than first-come first served. It will be more work for the LEL team, but less stressful for people looking to ride.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #278 on: 28 August, 2017, 02:36:52 pm »
This was the first LEL that Sonya Crawford wasn't at the Edinburgh control. She's coeliac, and had some interesting ways around the problem.

She always had omeletes available, I usually had ham and cheese. There was always trifle as well, I assume with gluten-free cake in it. It was something of a tradition to tuck into that at 5am. There are a few bemused references to it in accounts of 2009 and earlier. Don't ask me what she did for vegans, as I haven't the faintest idea.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #279 on: 28 August, 2017, 02:46:47 pm »
This was the first LEL that Sonya Crawford wasn't at the Edinburgh control. She's coeliac, and had some interesting ways around the problem.

She always had omeletes available, I usually had ham and cheese. There was always trifle as well, I assume with gluten-free cake in it. It was something of a tradition to tuck into that at 5am. There are a few bemused references to it in accounts of 2009 and earlier. Don't ask me what she did for vegans, as I haven't the faintest idea.

Yes, it's a shame Sonya chose to withdraw as a controller two months before the event in order to go on holiday. However that sort of individual catering doesn't scale up to 1500 riders. Happily the Edinburgh control do all the catering, which has been superb both editions that they've been involved. The schools that cater are geared up to cook without gluten, but I still would not make a promise to keep gluten out of the 30-odd plates of food that a typical LEL rider ploughs through during the course of the event. The risk is just far too great.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #280 on: 28 August, 2017, 03:02:02 pm »
Sonya was down with us last weekend, and gave us an update on Semaine Federale. It was at Mortagne au Perche, on the PBP route, and it was difficult to provide flat enough rides for all the family, on what is a family event. There was also limited wine at the final meal.

It was a bit of a conflict for Heather and myself when we found out that LEL clashed with Sem Fed. On balance we made the better decision, but it's one that might best be avoided. It was unfortunate that LEL clashed with SF at a PBP control town, as the PBP committee like to do a ride they aren't responsible for. But Sem Fed uses the same volunteer base as PBP, so it's politically important for them to go, and it's fun.

So I've got two suggestions. Try not to clash with Semaine Federale, and send a core group of volunteers to study Semaine Federale. It's a sort of slow-motion PBP, so all the issues can be explored at leisure. It's a step-change above PBP, which itself is a step-change above LEL.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #281 on: 28 August, 2017, 03:11:58 pm »
You did indeed, and as ever I'm incredibly grateful for the work you put into LEL.

I think pulling out of a major role in the event, then declining to tell me for weeks, was incredibly poor form. If the AUK director of events hadn't jumped in, LEL would have been in a lot of trouble.

LMT

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #282 on: 28 August, 2017, 11:11:23 pm »


Being mostly on food service at st Ives, I found most veggies and vegans extremely grateful for the variety we offered thank entirely to Colin and those supporting him. There was no flippant attitude at all.

The only disgruntled diner I experienced was because he had to wait twenty minutes for soup. I had one guy looked like he was either going to burst into tears, or hug me when I showed him the vat of bean stew.

You miss the point and in doing so have invented a strawman argument. The idea that catering for vegans is extreme/difficult is what is flippant/ignorant not what xyz control did or did not have.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #283 on: 29 August, 2017, 12:00:21 am »
You miss the point and in doing so have invented a strawman argument. The idea that catering for vegans is extreme/difficult is what is flippant/ignorant not what xyz control did or did not have.

No-one in this thread who has been discussing the very real difficulties involved in, as volunteers, offering mass catering that takes account of dietary needs and preferences - including but not limited to veganism - has been flippant or ignorant.

Your persistent pretence that they have been is in itself a straw man.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #284 on: 29 August, 2017, 12:05:34 am »
YACF, The Movie. 'Attack of the Straw Men'. Coming soon to a cinema near you.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #285 on: 29 August, 2017, 12:15:59 am »
LEL is now heavily dependent on Schools for the controls and as such a clash with the Semaine Federale is now probably inevitable and unreconcilable.

It's only once every four years. It was unfortunate that LEL coincided with one with a PBP dimension. I like the idea of reciprocating the hospitality we receive in France. Perhaps an LEL presence at Sem Fed 2020 would be a nice gesture. If anyone wants to build on their LEL volunteer experience, Sem Fed 2018 is in Epinal in the Vosges. http://vosges.ffct.org/sf2018.htm

billyam998

  • LEL rider C6 2013 / B11 2017 / B4 2022
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #286 on: 07 September, 2017, 10:00:51 am »
What I'm pretty settled on is that if I'm running LEL2021, there will be a ballot rather than first-come first served. It will be more work for the LEL team, but less stressful for people looking to ride.

I don't understand this, how can it be less stressful for those looking to ride? Neither means of getting a ride is desirable but, a ballot would to me appear to be just as much of a gamble as hovering over the buy it now button waiting for 1 minute past 12.  I also hope the various means of guaranteed entry will remain.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #287 on: 07 September, 2017, 02:26:08 pm »
What I'm pretty settled on is that if I'm running LEL2021, there will be a ballot rather than first-come first served. It will be more work for the LEL team, but less stressful for people looking to ride.

I don't understand this, how can it be less stressful for those looking to ride? Neither means of getting a ride is desirable but, a ballot would to me appear to be just as much of a gamble as hovering over the buy it now button waiting for 1 minute past 12.  I also hope the various means of guaranteed entry will remain.

Differently stressful, perhaps. At the moment, you hover over the button at 00:00:01 (or whatever), and stress whether you'll be quick enough, whether the entry will be in your basket, whether it'll accept your payment details, then (once it's failed) complain that the server was inadequate, that the timing was inaccurate, that the team is biased against entries from $your_country, that people were hogging the system with multiple entry attempts etc etc etc.

With a ballot, you'll have a defined window - days, weeks, who knows - to get your entry in without racing to be fastest fingers first, then after it closes you'll have a period of hope, waiting for the email that says you have a place. Before this email you will, of course, have the opportunity to complain that the entry window opened or closed early or late, that it was poorly advertised, and that therefore the organising team owes you a place because you couldn't enter the ballot; after the email you will be able to complain that the team was once again biased against $your_country, that the draw was not truly random, that multiple entries from others have not been detected, and most importantly that you haven't got a place (because as any fule kno, you really, truly, DESERVE one).

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #288 on: 07 September, 2017, 03:41:43 pm »
Good analysis ... dont forget that we might also ask for your dietary requirements and either have a number  limit for carnivores, vegetarians etc .. or even refuse to accept any with certain requirements .... might make control menu planning easier !!!!
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #289 on: 07 September, 2017, 03:45:57 pm »
Would refusing entry to some with special dietary needs fall foul of disability/equality legislation?

Some highly successful randonneurs have special dietary needs and would be mortified/furious if they were refused entry!

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #290 on: 07 September, 2017, 04:18:54 pm »
London Marathon hopefuls seem very happy with a Ballot. I don't see the problem with them for LEL/PBP, but every time this comes up, some are against - I guess we just disagree!

I don't recall seeing/hearing much whingeing about LM entries - apart from the issues around GoodForAge times, but that doesn't apply to LEL. Yet ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #291 on: 07 September, 2017, 04:53:04 pm »
London Marathon hopefuls seem very happy with a Ballot. I don't see the problem with them for LEL/PBP, but every time this comes up, some are against - I guess we just disagree!

I don't recall seeing/hearing much whingeing about LM entries - apart from the issues around GoodForAge times, but that doesn't apply to LEL. Yet ...

LM ballot works fine if you're not overly committed to running. It's every year so you get a chance (slim though it is) to get a place annually. If you don't then shrug your shoulders and try again next year. Some people moan as they've tried the ballot for 7 or 8 consecutive years and never been drawn. Dur, that's how a ballot works, no such thing as law of averages etc. If you really want to run then there are other avenues to get a guaranteed place, good for age, charity places etc. English Athletic affiliated clubs get ballot places according to their membership, clubs usually have some criteria on which you are allowed to enter the club ballot (failed to get in public ballot, length of membership, done something worthy etc.). This is how I got my place in 2017, failed the public ballot but drew one of my club's ballot places.

As long as there were some guaranteed methods of getting into LEL, e.g. the audax UK route, previous volunteer, then I see no issue with a ballot for the remaining places. It'd be very annoying if it was only a ballot for an event that only took place every 4 years. The LM method of a certain number of places per club (how you would determine a club I don't know and some clubs might not want any places!) might be fairer for spreading out the ballot places across countries, regions.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #292 on: 07 September, 2017, 05:11:55 pm »
I'm not fully understanding this thread...

AIUI AUK members got priority entry and had several weeks to enter before entry was extended to the rest of the world. Whether the latter is by ballot or first come will inevitably be a gamble. Either way the risk lies with the rider. So be it.

Anybody can avoid that risk simply by joining AUK. Given that the net cost of riding LEL for an overseas rider must be £5-600+, spending an extra £19 to guarantee entry would seem a good investment.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #293 on: 07 September, 2017, 06:34:46 pm »
Right then... gluten freeness.

I have to be gluten free. Eating it makes me sick. Like in pain for a couple of days, about the same level of discomfort as eating a bad Indian meal. Not a little windy, not a little inconvenienced, but in bed for a day or two. On top of the stresses of the ride eating gluten is probably a ride-ender.

So... how I normally cope on rides is by going to a control and seeing what's there. If there is nothing there I can eat then I bounce and usually, through local knowledge or research, I can find somewhere to get something. Experience means I can go into a service station and know what I can eat. Also The Spoons has a GF menu! It's certainly  a lot easier than it was ten years ago. However it can still be a right pain - PBP for instance. Next time I will be doing it supported just so I can eat something. It was a miserable experience and the ride became about hunger rather than a cycling challenge.

My experience of LEL was generally good. I ate a lot of jacket potatoes and a lot of rice pudding - fine, to be expected. There was almost always something I could eat which was great. Louth, well we know all about that! Edinburgh was a bit empty, I think I had a couple of puddings and no main. Ironically the one control where I really suffered was actually very well catered for GF I later found out. I missed the sign about GF food and I was so tired I didn't ask the assistants if there were any options. I had a packet of GF chocolate biscuits with me which became dinner and breakfast. It seems that some controls 'hid' their GF food from view. I can't remember what the control was but I remember seeing two loaves of GF bread just sitting there as I was leaving which was frustrating as it is grains that are hard to find and really needed.

All in all my impression is that provision was done on a control by control basis. Generally I have no great problem or objection - there was enough to get me through and compared to PBP it was GF heaven, trust me.

I have three suggestions, a reminder and a thought experiment.

Suggestion 1: A protocol for riders on GF or Vegan or Veggie: A statement to make, a set of magic words, whatever, that 'unlocks' that controls provision - this will remove the effort of trying to figure out what is going on at each control which gets increasingly difficult with less and less sleep. This could be sent to the people who indicated on the signup form that they were x, y or z.

Suggestion 2: Ingredients lists. It matters to me what brand the vege stock is! Knoor is great, some others have a wheat base. This removes the russian roulette element of eating things like currys... I had one but then shied away from them.

Suggestion 3: I am happy to work around food provision but ideally I need to know in advance what is catered for and what is not. If the team could communicate the policy to those who indicate on the entry form then that will make things clear.

Moral point: I was happy with the cost of the event and chancing the food as I knew I could probably get around on service station stops if I really had to and by carrying more food. However if you specially stated that you were not supporting GF/vegan/veggie menus then I would certainly not wish to contribute to the general food pot!

And a reminder: This is not a choice. I have looked up whether GF intolerance/coeliacs is a disability and officially it isn't. But please remember that Coeliacs is a lifetime auto immune disease for which the only effective treatment is to not eat gluten.

And a thought experiment: I want you to imagine that you are in queue for food and there is a lot of it out but you realise that it is all effectively poison. That sounds dramatic but that's what my mental outlook on entering a control is - I am looking to get through without being made ill by food. Believe me being GF gives you a very warped way of approaching food and eating.

And finally as a matter of interest how many of us ticked the Gluten Free box?

A



alfapete

  • Oh dear
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #294 on: 07 September, 2017, 07:02:51 pm »
Right then... gluten freeness.

And finally as a matter of interest how many of us ticked the Gluten Free box?


We managed to retrieve this figure from notes made at one of the York meetings: 38 is the answer for gluten free. In addition there were 39 requiring lactose free, 211 veggies, 54 vegans and 20 nut allergies.

There were discussions around providing gluten-free food and those controls with medical personnel on the organising team will have understood the importance of the issue more clearly than others. There is a LOT to think about in the run up to the event and it can easily be considered as a low priority matter, but if we ask the question on the entry form then we really should fulfill that requirement
alfapete - that's the Pete that drives the Alfa

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #295 on: 07 September, 2017, 07:42:46 pm »
Right then... gluten freeness.

And finally as a matter of interest how many of us ticked the Gluten Free box?


We managed to retrieve this figure from notes made at one of the York meetings: 38 is the answer for gluten free. In addition there were 39 requiring lactose free, 211 veggies, 54 vegans and 20 nut allergies.

There were discussions around providing gluten-free food and those controls with medical personnel on the organising team will have understood the importance of the issue more clearly than others. There is a LOT to think about in the run up to the event and it can easily be considered as a low priority matter, but if we ask the question on the entry form then we really should fulfill that requirement

Yeah, I know there is a ton of stuff to do so I haven't pushed this as a big deal and I was confident I would make it around regardless. However if I had been a foreign rider with a much higher level of investment I would have been a lot more demanding! I put this forward in the spirit of something to put on that very long list for next time. Also don't underestimate the value of talking to members of those various interest groups - always happy to help! I suspect ingredients lists is going to be a good baseline.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #296 on: 07 September, 2017, 08:39:05 pm »
I don't want to delve into the detail in public, but it was never the intention to guarantee gluten-free, nut-free or lactose-free food on the event. I'm very sorry that we ended up giving that impression.

Next time round I will make sure to be far more explicit about this. We simply cannot guarantee gluten-free, nut-free or lactose-free food, and if it's a life or death matter, I don't think this is the event for you.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #297 on: 07 September, 2017, 09:35:55 pm »
I don't want to delve into the detail in public, but it was never the intention to guarantee gluten-free, nut-free or lactose-free food on the event. I'm very sorry that we ended up giving that impression.

Next time round I will make sure to be far more explicit about this. We simply cannot guarantee gluten-free, nut-free or lactose-free food, and if it's a life or death matter, I don't think this is the event for you.

Yes I got that, I wasn't *expecting* anything much and I hope I gave the impression that I was mostly very well catered for and happy with my experience. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

I didn't suggest it was life or death, I was very clear about what my physical symptoms would be, and I acted according to that level of risk through out the ride and was fine. It's Audax, I get that, I am an adult and I acted as such. And it was the event for me, I finished.

It is slightly mixed messages that's all - I understood no gaurantees but also people had gone out of their way to cater for GF etc so it seems like a slightly wasted opportunity not to systematise it in some way. I would happily do the ride again with the current setup and I would be more vocal at controls, no problem.

I was also hoping to paint a picture of what it's like, sorry if that was a little grim or seemed negative, that wasn't my intention.

As per the title of the thread I was making some suggestions about how things could be done better that's all. I was also offering to help.

Cheers!

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #298 on: 08 September, 2017, 02:30:27 pm »
sometimes the bike parking barriers were all linked in a straight line and when many bikes were put on one side there was a tendency for the entire structure to collapse to one side. Next time maybe they could be arranged in an arrow formation so one prevented another from tipping over.
At Loughton, on Friday, after we'd set up the lines of bike park barriers, I deliberately went along fashioning the lines into gentle zigzags, to address the structural stability issue you've identified above. They still seemed to be standing when I helped take it all down seven days later (after a late Thursday finish and a good few hours sleep in the 'registration' dorm/gym).

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #299 on: 08 September, 2017, 04:49:08 pm »
It is slightly mixed messages that's all.

Indeed. And quite dangerous mixed messages too. I've already had one fairly strident complaint about gluten poisoning.

Best to make it absolutely explicit - this event is not suitable for people with food allergies that cripple or kill them.