Author Topic: [LEL17] Rider Area  (Read 29605 times)

Phil W

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #100 on: 25 February, 2017, 12:00:45 pm »
You see, I'm trying to work out what happens if the 4pm (i.e. last) time slot is over-subscribed.

Do the ballot-losers start the following day? Or are they bumped to the 9am slot in 2021?

Nope, they will need to do the washing up and clean the start control before they get going...

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #101 on: 25 February, 2017, 10:27:28 pm »
OK, based on the data at noon (passed on by someone - thanks), my simulation (with the various caveats of not knowing about groups, guaranteed spaces for volunteers/etc, and guesswork about the precise algorithm used) and ignoring the early starts it gives:-


 I had a look at the the process for managing this, working from first principles, as its an interesting problem....

Working on a simple approach of multiple rounds of assigning free places per slot/applicant, and moving unsuccessful applicants for one start time onto the next...  if initial slot applications are fairly well distributed with highs and low levels of applications through the schedule then riders will tend to get something near to what they asked for.

HOWEVER if there is a major bulge at the start, as is the case, then whilst riders outside the starting bulge will tend to get something close to what they asked for, riders in the starting bulge slot(s) missing out on the initial assignment will slide straight to the end of the schedule, as all of the interim start times will already be fully allocated by the time they reach them...

What this means is that the ¬150 riders missing out on on 9-10am slots will find themselves starting late afternoon. I foresee a great wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Limiting the number of start times by which riders might be 'delayed' would reduce this but that would be at the cost of penalising riders who booked less popular start times in the first place. Is it reasonable they should be displaced when nominally by doing so they were assisting the organisers? Or maybe they were just stating their actual preferance. Either way, is it fair they should be pushed back when riders lucky in getting earlier slots were not? No right answer, just have to take a view...

If taking this approach, offering starting places in much larger starting blocks (say 9-11, 11-13, 13-15, etc.), or treating applications received as such, with each block containing a number of start times would makesthe process of allocating places more flexible and reduce rider expectations as to getting a specific 15 minute start time.

Another approach would be I'll call 'cascading pools' of start slots. So there is a ballot for places in the first start time, and those failing to get a place going into the ballot for the next start time alongside the applicants for that start time. This approach allows for weightings to be applied to increase the probability of success for riders applying to undersubscribed slots and/or reduce the amount riders are delayed (by progressively increasing the weighting of riders failing on one pool and being moved on to the next). This would mean that 'bulge' riders not getting their preferred slot would have a chance of getting a place in the following slots as the bulge is massaged through the startlist. The overall effect is that more/possibly most riders would get something akin to what they asked for.

This is not a small problem though. Glad it's not mine. It occurs to me it's also not a new problem... I expect theres a whole branch of mathematics devoted to this conumdrum. Doubtless Greenbank can advise. :)

Apologies if this has already been done to death (and all the edits).... just interested.

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #102 on: 26 February, 2017, 11:12:00 am »
Quote
Limiting the number of start times by which riders might be 'delayed' would reduce this but that would be at the cost of penalising riders who booked less popular start times in the first place. Is it reasonable they should be displaced when nominally by doing so they were assisting the organisers? Or maybe they were just stating their actual preferance. Either way, is it fair they should be pushed back when riders lucky in getting earlier slots were not? No right answer, just have to take a view...

As you say, it's impossible to know why people have chosen the slots they have.  But I can certainly say that in my case I have opted for a later start than I would otherwise have chosen in the hope of reducing the chances of being bumped to a much later start.  I am sure there are lots of people who have done the same. 

Strikes me as a bit odd if those who have done the same were then to be put at a disadvantage compared to those who have clung to the 9am slot.

Arguably, those who have chosen the most oversubscribed slots should be allocated last (as has been mooted on this thread already) -
it would certainly encourage people to re-consider their choice and, by opting to spread themselves a bit more evenly, make things easier for the organisers. 

And if those who have currently chosen the most over-subscribed slots choose not to re-consider, that's their decision, but at least they know the risk they are facing if they don't get their chosen slot ...

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #103 on: 26 February, 2017, 11:30:27 am »
Accurate analysis in my view
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #104 on: 26 February, 2017, 04:42:29 pm »
I've just selected 4pm

I had 3 possibles in my mind.  7am and 100h, 9am or 4pm

7am means I will have less time for sleep, regardless of what else I do

9am means I do the first easy bit in daylight so quite fast and hopefully get to the end of the flatter section end of day 1.  But let's face it everyone wants to do this so it's unlikely that I would get a slot for it

4pm means I will have to ride through the first night and the first day like PBP.    I guess I aim to get to Brampton end of day 2 + 36 hours, then get some proper sleep

I do wonder how the less experienced riders would cope with the scenario of a 4pm start

If I start at 4pm I will be at the back of everything throughout the event.  Not bothered about the food running out or anything but it's often difficult to find anyone to ride with





Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #105 on: 27 February, 2017, 08:04:12 am »
If I start at 4pm I will be at the back of everything throughout the event.  Not bothered about the food running out or anything but it's often difficult to find anyone to ride with

If you're fast enough to have been contemplating a 100h, I imagine you will very quickly find some company among the 3pm and 3.30pm starts!
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #106 on: 27 February, 2017, 09:04:58 pm »
If I start at 4pm I will be at the back of everything throughout the event.  Not bothered about the food running out or anything but it's often difficult to find anyone to ride with

If you're fast enough to have been contemplating a 100h, I imagine you will very quickly find some company among the 3pm and 3.30pm starts!

Well I hope so but I am not  so quick that I can burn several matches staying with people who are overdoing it


Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #107 on: 27 February, 2017, 10:23:24 pm »
I do not understand the start time approach adopted by many people. The 9.00 am start currently has 139 applications for 50 places and the 9.15 has 86 and the 9.30 has 71.
So 9.00 am start has  a 36% chance of being fortunate .. with an almost certain post 2.00pm start if they are unlucky, and maybe post 3.00pm.  But 9.15 has a 58% and 9.30 a 70% chance of being lucky. Why not  significantly increase your  chance of starting early by being in the 9.15, 9.30, 9.45 group.  The 15/30/45 minutes start time difference is immaterial for your day one plans.. but be unlucky and a 5 hours at least change of start time ...... . well that would be different
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

mmmmartin

  • BPB 1/1: PBP 0/1
    • FNRttC
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #108 on: 27 February, 2017, 10:36:36 pm »
I do not understand the start time approach adopted by many
You don't have to be mad to ride audax, but it helps.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #109 on: 27 February, 2017, 10:49:45 pm »
I suspect that there's a fair degree of brinkmanship going on, with people hanging on in the hope that someone else will blink first and switch to another slot.  It's fun to watch  :D
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #110 on: 28 February, 2017, 01:25:13 am »
I'd take a guess many either don't quite get how the ballot will work or don't grasp how late a start time they'll be getting if they lose the ballot.

I'd hope an email with some friendly tips will be going out sometime in the next month if we're to avoid toys being ejected from pram.

alfapete

  • Oh dear
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #111 on: 28 February, 2017, 06:46:50 am »
I'd take a guess many either don't quite get how the ballot will work or don't grasp how late a start time they'll be getting if they lose the ballot.

I think you're right. Many who aren't avid yacf or facebook users will have no idea about the (over)analysis in which many of us are partaking. And many will end up moaning, too.
alfapete - that's the Pete that drives the Alfa

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #112 on: 28 February, 2017, 08:21:26 am »
A good knowledge of your strengths and weaknesses plus those of others can be interesting when you decide a startspot. I opt for a start around noon.
-Enough time to sleep before the start so no sleep deficit at the start, so I can ride through the 1st night.
-Most of the riders starting between 9 and 10 am plan to sleep during the 1st night, starting with them would mean a lonely night section
-I'm relatively slow in the hills (first section) but not that slow on the flat (scheduled night section).
-Riders who start around 3-4pm tend to want to ride through the 1st night.

So if I start around noon I have enough sleep in hand to ride through the 1st night in company of faster climbers of the 3-4pm starts who caught up with me. Plus a schedule geared to finishing with 4 hours in hand means that I can do most of Scotland during daylight. As an added benefit, no rush for starttimes. 

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #113 on: 28 February, 2017, 09:21:10 am »
I think the last post sort of sums it up for me.

I've plumped for a start time which I may or may not get (it's not overly popular). If I don't get it I just have to look at different tactics to when and where I stop and sleep, all of which can be planned for well in advance. The time I get may not be my 'perfect' option, but then I've never done this before so I haven't got past experience to inform my choice anyway.

At the moment I'm more worried about getting enough time on the bike so I can get to the point when I can bang out 200k rides without breaking sweat and building up the necessary longer rides in the two or three months prior to the start.

frillipippi

  • from Italy
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #114 on: 28 February, 2017, 12:01:10 pm »
I'd take a guess many either don't quite get how the ballot will work or don't grasp how late a start time they'll be getting if they lose the ballot.

I'd hope an email with some friendly tips will be going out sometime in the next month if we're to avoid toys being ejected from pram.

I totally agree. I've exchanged a couple of emails with another Italian rider who requested 09:00 start and was trying to form as large a group as possible hoping this would increase his hopes of not being moved to another start time...  :facepalm: ... he ended his last email with something like this: "even if we are unlucky, and we have to start at 1000, we'll get over it"... no comment!

Another possible reason could be that someone has noticed the gap between the last start time for 100hr and the first 116hr40, maybe someone is hoping that a barking dog never bites and that some 0845 slot will magically pop up, at the end. The email with friendly tips might explicitly state that this won't be the case.

Phil W

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #115 on: 28 February, 2017, 02:39:24 pm »
I totally agree. I've exchanged a couple of emails with another Italian rider who requested 09:00 start and was trying to form as large a group as possible hoping this would increase his hopes of not being moved to another start time... 

09:00am and large group you say? Ha ha ha ha ha ha, at least it'll marginally improve the chances for others who've gone for 9am...  Keep the entertainment coming.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #116 on: 28 February, 2017, 05:35:41 pm »
I suspect that 12:00 is going to become the new 9:00 as riders in the know 'downsize'...

Miss out on a 9:00 slot and it's a 6 hour wait. Miss out on a 12:00 slot and it's only a 3 hour wait.

The way things are going, everybody is going to be starting at 4pm regardless!

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #117 on: 28 February, 2017, 07:12:52 pm »
Is it likely that the 9am slot has more people with guaranteed starting times, reducing chances even further for those allocated by lottery?

Did the committee consider allocating on price, I wonder how much a 9am slot would be worth to some riders?

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #118 on: 28 February, 2017, 07:41:54 pm »
Is it likely that the 9am slot has more people with guaranteed starting times, reducing chances even further for those allocated by lottery?

Did the committee consider allocating on price, I wonder how much a 9am slot would be worth to some riders?

How are you allocated a guaranteed starting time?  I was not aware that was an option available to riders. Guaranteed place yes, but guaranteed starting time?

mmmmartin

  • BPB 1/1: PBP 0/1
    • FNRttC
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #119 on: 28 February, 2017, 08:05:03 pm »
Did the committee consider allocating on price
Shouldn't think so for one moment. Can't see Danial tolerating that for one moment.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #120 on: 28 February, 2017, 08:38:31 pm »
Is it likely that the 9am slot has more people with guaranteed starting times, reducing chances even further for those allocated by lottery?

Did the committee consider allocating on price, I wonder how much a 9am slot would be worth to some riders?

How are you allocated a guaranteed starting time?  I was not aware that was an option available to riders. Guaranteed place yes, but guaranteed starting time?

Blood relative volunteering for half the week, I think, or something similar ...

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #121 on: 28 February, 2017, 08:41:45 pm »
Did the committee consider allocating on price
Shouldn't think so for one moment. Can't see Danial tolerating that for one moment.

I think there was brief discussion about it here a while ago (certainly I recall the suggestion of allocating something on price) - as you suggest, the idea didn't last very long ...

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #122 on: 28 February, 2017, 11:37:58 pm »
It would appeal to me .. enormously .. I think I suggested a Dutch auction for 10 places each  starting at £250.

In reality there is no way that we would do that .. so just wishful thinking on my behalf
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Re: Rider Area
« Reply #123 on: 01 March, 2017, 07:24:52 am »
... I've exchanged a couple of emails with another Italian rider who requested 09:00 start and was trying to form as large a group as possible hoping this would increase his hopes of not being moved to another start time...  :facepalm: ... he ended his last email with something like this: "even if we are unlucky, and we have to start at 1000, we'll get over it"... no comment!

A really big group won't help at all. From: https://londonedinburghlondon.com/2016/08/here-are-some-details-about-next-years-start-times/

Quote
If you’re riding as a group of up to six riders, give us your team name in the rider area and arrange with your group members to choose the same start time.

Also...

Is it likely that the 9am slot has more people with guaranteed starting times, reducing chances even further for those allocated by lottery?

Did the committee consider allocating on price, I wonder how much a 9am slot would be worth to some riders?

How are you allocated a guaranteed starting time?  I was not aware that was an option available to riders. Guaranteed place yes, but guaranteed starting time?

Blood relative volunteering for half the week, I think, or something similar ...

From: https://londonedinburghlondon.com/2016/08/here-are-some-details-about-next-years-start-times/ again:-

Quote
...
If your partner or spouse is volunteering to help for more than two days of the event, we will also guarantee your start time.
...
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

frillipippi

  • from Italy
Re: Rider Area
« Reply #124 on: 01 March, 2017, 09:32:37 am »
... I've exchanged a couple of emails with another Italian rider who requested 09:00 start and was trying to form as large a group as possible hoping this would increase his hopes of not being moved to another start time...  :facepalm: ... he ended his last email with something like this: "even if we are unlucky, and we have to start at 1000, we'll get over it"... no comment!

A really big group won't help at all. From: https://londonedinburghlondon.com/2016/08/here-are-some-details-about-next-years-start-times/

Quote
If you’re riding as a group of up to six riders, give us your team name in the rider area and arrange with your group members to choose the same start time.


Sure, and at the end of the same page you can find written "Any group larger than six risks being split up or placed in an unpopular slot."
I can tell you the Italian translation of this page is faithful to the original and easy to understand...  :facepalm: